Libertarian Clobbers Tucker Carlson in Immigration Debate

And it certainly is. There is no such things as an "illegal" person. Well, maybe if you're a nationalist or a socialist who doesn't believe in individual humanity.

I'm conflicted on this. I believe in the real world you're always going to have a government, therefore the best path to maximizing liberty is to have the "best" government possible. So I'm not sure if there's a way to maintain a government without having some sort of registration process.

Suppose you and a group of libertarians decided to form their own island nation. Would it be against libertarian rules to restrict outsiders from your island? Do outsiders have a natural right to move to your island?
 
As long as we have the welfare state yes there should be borders.

No ones saying they are illegal "people" but you.

What if we grant immediate legal status to anyone willing to sign a contract that they will never use welfare? At least welfare on a national level, states would have the right to do as they wish.
 
And the low skilled aspect is important.

Check out another CATO study unless you're allergic to CATO - https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/tpa-040.pdf

EDIT: Hmmm... the file isn't coming up for me right now.

As I recall, the gist of it is that if employers didn't have to be so under-the-table about their undocumented workers, then more skills training would take place, worker paranoia and insecurity would drop, and productivity would increase. If I remember correctly, they conservatively calculate a $250B annual difference to the US economy between deporting undocumented workers (-$250B) vs. making it legal for them to reside here and work (+$250B). And of course the resulting higher-skilled workers are going to be able to ask for higher wages, creating prosperity for them, more spending in their community, more tax revenues and another positive competitive dynamic in the market.
Correct me here on this. Most job fields don't have a shortage. Dont bring people into that field unless there is a shortage. We can tell if there is a shortage when that industry gets backlogged. I would be curious too see what the employment levels of the fields illegals are working in vs say 30 years ago. Hard to find workers vs easy now in those fields.
If one wants to make the discussion around costs and what it adds or takes away from the economy. I have no problem with that. I just don't see the studies that include things like

What about the affect on the economy of those losing jobs, working less and receiving entitlements because of the glut of labor?
Or that illegals here with family back home, send their money out of the country instead of spending it here.
People usually stay at their same economic level. Why bring lower earnings into the country who will continue to earn low wages?

All of what you said about training, a secure work place, lowering turnover to keep the costs of training down which is huge, is always a smart move. So aren't we going back to not enough Americans who want to work or be trained. I see this as too much of the welfare state and that some of what is presented is a symptom.
 
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What if we grant immediate legal status to anyone willing to sign a contract that they will never use welfare? At least welfare on a national level, states would have the right to do as they wish.

See Nowrasteh's "Building a Wall around the Welfare State, Instead of the Country." https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/building-wall-around-welfare-state-instead-country

There' s a pdf that goes more in-depth, but CATO PDF's aren't accessible today for some reason.
 
Suppose you and a group of libertarians decided to form their own island nation. Would it be against libertarian rules to restrict outsiders from your island? Do outsiders have a natural right to move to your island?

You'd either have to have unanimous buy-in on the restriction by all property owners, which might be withdrawn if one has a change of heart. Or they'd have to submit to a majority decision, which I'd argue is very, very unlibertarian. Or the island could be owned by a libertarian person who would basically be "selling" property with freedom of association strings attached. That person could require a contract.
 
Suppose you and a group of libertarians decided to form their own island nation. Would it be against libertarian rules to restrict outsiders from your island? Do outsiders have a natural right to move to your island?
What would happen is even if all of the original owners agreed to restrict outsiders, eventually some of their heirs or other future owners of the property would have different ideas. There is no method of ensuring philosophical purity of every member of a society across generations. At that point, the community would have to decide which is more important to them: their own freedoms, or the their desired restriction against outsiders. Historically it seems that freedom has always lost out in these cases. The result would be some level of coercive government that could range between an HOA and a nation.


Your example is the opposite of the United States. Here, we began with freedom and later generations decided that they were more interested in ownership of other peoples' property than their own.
 
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What if we grant immediate legal status to anyone willing to sign a contract that they will never use welfare? At least welfare on a national level, states would have the right to do as they wish.
You see that happening? Or is this another analogy thing?
 
I'm conflicted on this. I believe in the real world you're always going to have a government, therefore the best path to maximizing liberty is to have the "best" government possible. So I'm not sure if there's a way to maintain a government without having some sort of registration process.

Suppose you and a group of libertarians decided to form their own island nation. Would it be against libertarian rules to restrict outsiders from your island? Do outsiders have a natural right to move to your island?

Good questions.

The things that needs to be understood is the difference between citizen and immigrant and what property rights are.

For the first 100 years of its history the USA didn't have any immigration restrictions. The federal government, then and now, can, according to the Constitution, determine citizenship rules. The main impact of this was who got to vote since all people have the rights laid out in the Bill of Rights, which was the point of the document in the first place -to recognize ALL people, irregardless of origin or citizenship, have rights that must be protected from federal intrusion. People came and went as they chose. They were not required to register and it did not imperil the government or culture of the US in any way.

As for your question about a libertarian island -yes and no. People have a natural right to move across any unowned property as no one has the right to regulate land they do not own. If this libertarian island had unowned land on it then people could move across that land or to that land as they chose. If this land is entirely privately owned then the ability of another to enter that owned land is determined on an owner to owner basis. If you and I lived on this island you could block anyone from crossing your land but you cannot prevent me from allowing people to cross my land.

This is the basic issue here in the US, and another way immigration laws or unlibertarian and violate natural rights. When you undertake to regulate my land you are becoming a tyrant, commanding I obey your will and threatening violence against anyone who doesn't.
 
You see that happening? Or is this another analogy thing?

It's a question.

Do I see it happening? No. But if it did my guess is that you see the parties flip flop. Democrats would hate immigrants and republicans would like them since their voting patterns would switch.
 
Report: America attracting poor, uneducated immigrants

In analyzing new Census reports, the Center for Immigration Studies found that immigrant families with one or more children use welfare far more than "native" American families.

"Welfare use by illegal immigrant households is certainly a concern, but the bigger issue is welfare use by legal immigrants," said Steven Camarota, the Center's director of research and author of the report.

"Three-fourths of immigrant households using welfare are headed by legal immigrants. Legal immigration is supposed to benefit the country, yet so many legal immigrants are not able to support themselves or their children. This raises important questions about the selection criteria used for legal immigration," said Camarota.

Of households headed by legal immigrants without a high school diploma, 75 percent use one or more welfare programs, as do 64 percent of households headed by legal immigrants with only a high school education.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...-72-of-legal-immigrants-on-it/article/2571730
 
Report: America attracting poor, uneducated immigrants

In analyzing new Census reports, the Center for Immigration Studies found that immigrant families with one or more children use welfare far more than "native" American families.

https://www.cato.org/blog/center-immigration-studies-exaggerates-immigrant-welfare-use

Center for Immigration Studies Report Exaggerates Immigrant Welfare Use

By ALEX NOWRASTEH

The Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) released a new report this morning on immigrant welfare use. CIS found that immigrants use far more welfare than natives do. CIS’ methodology, parts of which are suspect, is what produced this result – as we’ve pointed out to CIS multiple times. They also omitted a lot of information that would make for a better comparison between immigrants and natives. Simply put, the CIS study does not compare apples to apples but rather apples to elephants.

The first issue is that CIS counts the welfare use of households, which includes many native-born American citizens, rather than individuals. There might be some good reasons to do this but the immigrant-headed household variable CIS uses is ambiguous, poorly defined, and less used in modern research for those reasons. To CIS’ credit they try to separate out households with children but didn’t separate out American-born spouses. There is debate largely over whether to count the American born children of immigrants as a welfare cost of immigration. If we should count them, shouldn’t we also count the welfare use of grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great-great-grandchildren of immigrants? Such a way of counting would obviously produce a negative result but it would also not be informative.

Another problem with counting households rather than individuals is that immigrants and natives have different sized households. According to the American Community Survey, immigrant households have on average 3.37 people in them compared to 2.5 people in native-born households. All else remaining equal, we should expect higher welfare use in immigrant households just because they’re larger. CIS should have corrected for household size by focusing on individual welfare use – which is included in the SIPP.

The second issue with the CIS report is that it does not correct for income. Since means-tested welfare programs are designed for those with lower incomes, it makes sense to only compare use rates among those with lower incomes. It is not enlightening to statistically compare the welfare use rates of rich immigrants and Americans like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett to poorer immigrants and Americans as the CIS report does.

The interesting question is not whether poor people use more welfare than rich people but whether poor immigrants are more likely to use more welfare than poor natives. Our research found that poor immigrants are less likely to use welfare than poor natives. The CIS report isn’t very useful because it doesn’t correct for this.

The third issue with the CIS report is that they omitted the cash value of welfare benefits consumed by immigrant and native households. CIS only analyzed the use rates for each welfare program but they do not tell you how much welfare was actually consumed. For instance, the cash value for many welfare benefits are determined by the number of eligible members living in the household. If only half of the members of a household are eligible then the benefits are reduced. Furthermore, CIS does not report how long immigrant households are in these benefit programs compared to natives. Immigrants could be on these programs more frequently but for shorter periods of time and with fewer beneficiaries per household – which is roughly what we found.

Immigrant welfare usage could be higher but if the value of their benefits is lower then the picture changes. A Cato report from 2013 written by George Washington University Professor Leighton Ku and lead research scientist and lecturer Brian Bruen included both the individual immigrant use rates of welfare programs and the monetary cost. It turns out that when poor immigrants use welfare they consume a lower dollar value than poor natives do. For poor adult Medicaid enrollees, natives consumed $3845 of benefits in 2010 compared to $2904 for immigrants. Native born poor children enrolled in 2010 consumed $1030 in benefits while poor immigrant children enrolled only consumed $465. This pattern also holds for food stamps and SSI (but not for cash assistance).

That CIS did not include any information on the monetary value of the benefits received, which is vital to understand the costs and benefits of various welfare programs not to mention fiscal cost estimates, is noteworthy.

The fourth issue is that this CIS analysis necessarily excludes the largest portions of the welfare state – Medicare and Social Security. Social Security and Medicare are not intended for the poor but they are the largest programs in the welfare state. An OECD analysis of immigration’s impact on the U.S. budget found that immigrant net-contributions to Social Security and Medicare from 2007 to 2009 vastly outweigh their net-consumption of means-tested welfare which decreased U.S. government deficits by about 0.03 percent of GDP.

CIS & FAIR's research methods make Climate Research Institute look scrupulous.
 
https://www.cato.org/blog/center-immigration-studies-exaggerates-immigrant-welfare-use



CIS & FAIR's research methods make Climate Research Institute look scrupulous.
What difference does it make how big the household is? Of course there is going to be more welfare if one has more children. That's the rub, Natives don't, on average, have similar large sized families, which is why it's less of a problem.

The study should do it on a state by state basis imo.
 
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