Libertarian Clobbers Tucker Carlson in Immigration Debate

[Superfluous Man]

Apparently the difference is $113 billion plus the cost of unemployed and underemployed U.S. citizens to U.S citizens. Can you not read?

So, if these illegal immigrants were all legal, those claims would no longer be made about them?

 

[Madison320]

Those silly libertarians and their belief in the free market!

 

[undergroundrr]

Or, poster avoids addressing the substance of their research, and conflates illegally domiciled people with ALL immigrants.

Well, Nowrasteh's already addressed it. I doubt I can do better than him. http://cei.org/sites/default/files/Alex Nowrasteh - WebMemo - A FAIR Criticism.pdf

But trump says $113B. That's all you need to know, right?

FAIR sprang out of Zero Population Growth/Population Connection. They're not only for curbing both illegal and legal immigration. They're for Malthusian population control in general, one of the most Marxist ideas one can have on this planet. Maybe that's what trump is going for, thus his impatience to get war started in Iran and Syria.

The whole FAIR study is guestimation and conflation. Read the methodology in the full PDF and note the free use of the word "assume." Then watch the made up numbers. One example, they exploded the estimated number of undocumented children in Texas by 61% compared to credible sources.

And what's TOTALLY missing from the pulled-out-of-ass $113B?
- What immigrants spend on goods and services, generating tax revenue as they go.
- What immigrant children make/pay back in taxes after the expensive public education.

Virtually every other study you find will note that illegals are less likely to use benefits than citizens in similar situations and will use less of them. Even anti immigration group CIS, once they actually bothered to publish data with statistical controls, unwittingly made that plain.

The awkward conclusion for an anti-immigrationist - if you want less welfare use per capita, bring in more illegal immigrants.

If you want to convince people immigration harms us, just keep making up shit, whine a lot and change the subject like Tuck.

 

[timosman]

Why is this subject still debated?

 

[Zippyjuan]

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2015...to-Medicare-than-they-withdraw/2961435082706/

Undocumented immigrants pay more to Medicare than they withdraw

BOSTON, June 23 (UPI) -- Undocumented immigrants paid $35.1 billion more into Medicare than they withdrew, extending the program's viability a year longer than predicted had they not paid into it at all.

Researchers discovered that between 2000 and 2011, undocumented immigrants contributed between $2.2 billion and $3.8 billion more than they withdrew from the Medicare Trust Fund each year. That created a total surplus of $35.1 billion over the 11-year span.

Had this surplus not been added to the trust fund, it would become insolvent by 2029, one year earlier than analysts currently predict.

"For years I have seen my unauthorized immigrant patients be blamed for driving up health care costs," lead author Dr. Leah Zallman, a faculty member at Harvard Medical School, researcher at the Institute for Community Health and primary care physician at Cambridge Health Alliance, told Physicians for a National Health Program. "Yet few acknowledge their contributions. Our study demonstrates that in one large sector of the U.S. health care economy, unauthorized immigrants actually subsidize the care of other Americans."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/b...ering-social-security-with-billions.html?_r=0

Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions

STOCKTON, Calif. - Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour.

Not surprisingly, Mr. Martínez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security's long-term financial problems. But Mr. Martínez -- who comes from the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States near Tecate, some 20 miles east of Tijuana -- contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.

Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.

He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus -- the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

This just in: Anti-immigrant think tank says immigrants smell, are terrible. More as the story develops.

And if we want full disclosure, the person in the OP video, Alex Nowrasteh, is a US immigration activist.

 

[undergroundrr]

And if we want full disclosure, the person in the OP video, Alex Nowrasteh, is a US immigration activist.

Agreed. And works for CATO, which is friendly to immigration for whatever reason one would like to ascribe. (PSST: I think it's because they're libertarian.) I like the way he backs his position with peer-reviewed data.

I really hope to see him mix it up with somebody better prepared than Carlson was there.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Those silly libertarians and their belief in the free market!

These silly leftardarians and their desire to help the world government crowd finish destroying our nation.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Agreed. And works for CATO, which is friendly to immigration for whatever reason one would like to ascribe. (PSST: I think it's because they're libertarian.) I like the way he backs his position with peer-reviewed data.

I really hope to see him mix it up with somebody better prepared than Carlson was there.

Well, some would say that CATO is a beltway think-tank funded by big business interests, such as the US Chamber of Commerce. CATO was pretty consistently negative on both Ron and Rand during critical times.

 

[Madison320]

These silly leftardarians and their desire to help the world government crowd finish destroying our nation.

I'm not against controlling immigration but before we turn the US into a police state why not try some free market solutions first?

What I hate the most is having the government punish employers for hiring illegals. That a bunch of left wing, anti business crap. You're not in favor of punishing businesses are you?

 

[BUTSRSLY]

WAIT A MINUTE, WAIT A MINUTE, BACK UP

YOU MEAN UNITED STATES BORDERS IS NOT A FICTION?

SO DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD DO MORE CAGING?

NO MORE CAGING!

BUT WHY?

BECAUSE OF THE EFFECT ON THE ECONOMY OF COURSE

 

[Superfluous Man]

Is calling Ron Paul a leftardarian within the rules here?

 

[TheCount]

Or, poster avoids addressing the substance of their research, and conflates illegally domiciled people with ALL immigrants.

Or, poster calls bullshit on a report which blatantly states that it should be the role of the government to protect its citizens from economic competition.

 

[loveshiscountry]

How are any unemployed or underemployed people affected by immigration?

When the people at FAIR say garbage like that it's because they think illegal immigrants take Americans' jobs.

I was referring to illegal immigration and the lower paying jobs that they do.

Anytime you introduce workers into a field access to that field gets harder and wages drop. That's basic economics. We saw wages drop in unskilled construction, hospitality, and landscaping jobs.

 

[Madison320]

I was referring to illegal immigration and the lower paying jobs that they do.

Anytime you introduce workers into a field access to that field gets harder and wages drop. That's basic economics. We saw wages drop in unskilled construction, hospitality, and landscaping jobs.

Lower wages is not always a bad thing. In many cases hiring cheap, illegal workers is the only way for companies to stay in business. They have to do this to counter the high cost of government. The solution is not to punish businesses that hire illegal workers. That will just put them out of business. The solution is to lower the cost of government.

The dumbest thing I hear is that we need to force businesses to hire legal workers to fix the economy. As if they can just replace $7 an hour workers with $20 an hour workers with no ill effects on profits. It's better to have a business that employs 50 legal workers and 50 illegal ones than no business at all.

 

[undergroundrr]

Anytime you introduce workers into a field access to that field gets harder and wages drop. That's basic economics. We saw wages drop in unskilled construction, hospitality, and landscaping jobs.

And your argument is the same as arguing to raise the minimum wage. Although which is the more harmful government intervention in the market is debatable.

 

[PierzStyx]

Let's hear what this Cato/Beltway libertarian/US Chamber Lobbyist has to say...

- 1:30 "There has never been an economy in world history that has done better with fewer people".

Pulled straight from his ass. Perhaps he never heard of the Reformation and Renaissance, which occurred after massive depopulation caused by war and the bubonic plague.

- He contradicts himself many times.

- OK, by the end, I have to congratulate Zippyjuan for being on TV! Good job Zippy!

I love how you have to 1) misquote the guy (you pull a small portion of a sentence out and quote it as a full statement, all of which itself only makes sense in the larger context of what he was saying) and 2) pull something completely out of your arse in order to try and make yourself feel smarter and try and shore up your obviously incorrect immigration beliefs.

But heck, if you believe din facts you would have to support the Constitution and be for open borders.

 

[PierzStyx]

I was referring to illegal immigration and the lower paying jobs that they do.

Anytime you introduce workers into a field access to that field gets harder and wages drop. That's basic economics. We saw wages drop in unskilled construction, hospitality, and landscaping jobs.

And you would be wrong.

"Has the surge in immigration since 1970 led to slower wage growth for native-born workers? Academic research does not provide much support for this claim. The evidence suggests that when immigration increases the supply of labor, firms increase investment to offset any reduction in capital per worker, thereby keeping average wages from falling over the long term. Moreover, immigrants are often imperfect substitutes for native-born workers in U.S. labor markets. That means they do not compete for the same jobs and put minimal downward pressure on natives’ wages. This might explain why competition from new immigrants has mostly affected earlier immigrants, who experienced significant reductions in wages from the surge in immigration. In contrast, studies find that immigration has actually raised average wages of native-born workers during the last few decades. "

http://www.budgetmodel.wharton.upen...s-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy

"First, the displacement effect is small if it even affects natives at all. Immigrants are typically attracted to growing regions and they increase the supply and demand sides of the economy once they are there, expanding employment opportunities. Second, the debate over immigrant impacts on American wages is confined to the lower single digits – immigrants may increase the relative wages for some Americans by a tiny amount and decrease them by a larger amount for the few Americans who directly compete against them. Immigrants likely compete most directly against other immigrants so the effects on less-skilled native-born Americans might be very small or even positive."

https://fee.org/articles/15-common-arguments-against-immigration-addressed/

 

[PierzStyx]

The dumbest thing I hear is that we need to force businesses to hire legal workers to fix the economy. As if they can just replace $7 an hour workers with $20 an hour workers with no ill effects on profits. It's better to have a business that employs 50 legal workers and 50 illegal ones than no business at all.

This is because you know Keynesian economics i s garbage.

 

[loveshiscountry]

And your argument is the same as arguing to raise the minimum wage.
Although which is the more harmful government intervention in the market is debatable.

How so?