Kokesh on Atheism + Libertarians

[eduardo89]

I assume you are a follower of one of the mainstream Christian faiths. Actually "He" asks for a lot more than that. "He'" asks that you follow a lot of really stupid (and often contradictory) rules.

The supreme commandment is that you love Him. All the rest are derived from that one. If you love Him everything else falls into place on its own.

 

[BSWPaulsen]

To say that the brain has a chemical reaction does not explain abstractions. How can abstract entities like laws of logic exist if they are only in our individual brains? We don't have the same brains! If we don't have the same brains or the same sensations, why do we use the same laws of logic?

Abstract entities do not exist in any categorically verifiable sense if you disallow the neurophysiogical phenomena surrounding them, thinking they do is the fallacy of reification. If you think they exist because you can conceive them, then the very fact we have different brains equally capable of a different interpretation of the supposedly same "abstraction" is enough to thoroughly disabuse the notion there is anything of particular relevance to your argument. Such an argument only holds merit for objective nihilists, or subjectivists.

People often use the same laws of logic due to the perceived utility (ie: convenience), not because it is compulsory, or somehow endemic to the human condition (self-evident due to formal logic often being different from what a given individual may think is logical). In numerous posts you rail against the fallacy of induction, failing to realize people engage in this one daily while going about their lives despite it being "illogical". Clearly logic is used due to its perceived value, and ignored when there is utility in forsaking it.

 

[Joseph]

I love Adam, I think he's great, anyone who supports libertarianism needs to be embraced. The guy is smart and understands the underlying issues. As far as atheism goes, atheism especially in the libertarian, Voluntaryist movement is more about self-ownership and the idea of no sovereignty, no masters, no authority than it is about scientific evidence or critical thinking. The principle of self-ownership is sound, don't miss-understand me, but I find it very difficult to look at the scientific evidence and the logical consistency around the origin of the universe and say their isn't a God. I think it's very clear when you take logical consistency and apply it to comic origins that you come up with the conclusion that God must exist.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I get he's trying to reach out to leftist atheists but that hardly made any sense. The lies of government are inevitable and have nothing to do with religion or mythology. When Jefferson said: The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants; it becomes abundantly clear tyranny is cyclical and there's really no such thing as perpetual "liberty", a lion doesn't stop fighting for it's food, nor will we ever stop fighting for our beliefs and survival.

It's an issue of ethics because the Obamas, and Gingrichs, and Romneys, are all very logical people-- they do what they do to survive, make money, and have power, it's their ethics that should be called into question, politics makes sense to any rational person, follow the money trail.

Government can be used for good and evil, so can religion, and so can atheism just look at the Chinese, or Stalin. So I wish people would stop making false comparisons.

A big +rep for that.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

That makes no sense.

What if we don't need him? What if we build a perfect society ourselves? People won't be happy to see Jesus.

"What if" assumes we have the capacity to do that, or that God will allow it to happen. If you think there will ever be a perfect society, you are living in la-la land. This is the classic view of an atheist. They believe that humans can achieve perfection on their own, despite the fact that this is completely unfounded and unreasonable, not to mention it is completely inconsistent with the natural order of things. Everything dies and decays. We are not getting better. It is not a logical conclusion to make in any case. The reason we are in this world is because God put us here. The whole reason for our existence is to demonstrate our need for Jesus. Our point of disagreement is that you think humanity exists independent of the spiritual realm, and we see the physical world as an extension of the spiritual realm and recognize that there are certain things humans simply cannot know and cannot do without Jesus' salvation.

For instance, the idea that Jesus would "kill us" (meaning put an end to the physical functioning of our earthly bodies) doesn't bother me at all. That assumes that our physical existence is the be-all-end-all of our development as beings of any kind. As a Christian, I believe there is something more than just my physical existence, so the idea of death doesn't signify to me what it signifies to you. Being with God in spirit and dead in the body is much better than being alive in the body and dead in Christ. You hold the opposite view because you leave Christ out of the equation. That is a fatal premise when arguing the benefit or lack thereof of developing our physical existence in society or in our individual bodies. I wouldn't want to live forever in this body because I realize that there is something better than this.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I disagree. Just because we have idiots running things now, that doesn't mean we are not capable of a lot more.

Why is it that you think the trend that has continued throughout history of humans being greedy and immoral will ever change?

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Rejecting him? He's no better than me. Why should I worship him?

You really don't get the whole concept of God, do you?

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Its theoretically possible we were created by A God. But its completely impossible for a God, or anyone, to create the universe. The universe has no beginning or end, therefore cannot be created.

And no, they are not better than humans. Humans are completely capable of doing anything a God could.

The universe most certainly had a beginning. It is illogical to think otherwise. The universe is finite, and thus could only have been created by an infinite being, God.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I haven't seen any logic behind the idea that God created the universe. The only real law of the universe is zero=infinity. The only way the universe can possibly exist is if zero=infinity. I've had similar debates on this topic many times. Nobody has made a compelling argument that God created the universe. Nobody has made a clear argument on how the universe came into existence.

You mean, the only way the universe can possibly exist without God is if zero=infinity. I really don't know what that means, but I disagree that there is any way that the universe can exist without an infinite intelligence having created it. Everything has a beginning. The universe could not have created itself.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I haven't seen any logic behind the idea that God created the universe. The only real law of the universe is zero=infinity. The only way the universe can possibly exist is if zero=infinity. I've had similar debates on this topic many times. Nobody has made a compelling argument that God created the universe. Nobody has made a clear argument on how the universe came into existence.

You mean, the only way the universe can possibly exist without God is if zero=infinity. I really don't know what that means, but I disagree that there is any way that the universe can exist without an infinite intelligence having created it. Everything has a beginning. The universe could not have created itself.

 

[tttppp]

You mean, the only way the universe can possibly exist without God is if zero=infinity. I really don't know what that means, but I disagree that there is any way that the universe can exist without an infinite intelligence having created it. Everything has a beginning. The universe could not have created itself.

The universe having no beginning or end is the only possible way it could be in existence. Now you will probably say that God created the universe. But then you run into the problem of who created God.

 

[tttppp]

The universe most certainly had a beginning. It is illogical to think otherwise. The universe is finite, and thus could only have been created by an infinite being, God.

My definition of infinite means everything. If you are going to say God is infinite, infinity would therefore include the universe too which would also be infinite.

 

[Muwahid]

The universe having no beginning or end is the only possible way it could be in existence. Now you will probably say that God created the universe. But then you run into the problem of who created God.

Why is that a problem, where atheists say the universe had no beginning we say God had no beginning, we're just shifting the logic from one noun to another.

 

[tttppp]

You really don't get the whole concept of God, do you?

He's the guy who in theory would give you infinite life when you die? I believe people can eventually achieve this someday, so why worship someone who can't do anything you're not capable of?

 

[tttppp]

Why is it that you think the trend that has continued throughout history of humans being greedy and immoral will ever change?

The problem is we have a small amount of people in control doing this. If the people in charge put in a system that encouraged good behavior, things would change dramatically.

 

[tttppp]

"What if" assumes we have the capacity to do that, or that God will allow it to happen. If you think there will ever be a perfect society, you are living in la-la land. This is the classic view of an atheist. They believe that humans can achieve perfection on their own, despite the fact that this is completely unfounded and unreasonable, not to mention it is completely inconsistent with the natural order of things. Everything dies and decays. We are not getting better. It is not a logical conclusion to make in any case. The reason we are in this world is because God put us here. The whole reason for our existence is to demonstrate our need for Jesus. Our point of disagreement is that you think humanity exists independent of the spiritual realm, and we see the physical world as an extension of the spiritual realm and recognize that there are certain things humans simply cannot know and cannot do without Jesus' salvation.

For instance, the idea that Jesus would "kill us" (meaning put an end to the physical functioning of our earthly bodies) doesn't bother me at all. That assumes that our physical existence is the be-all-end-all of our development as beings of any kind. As a Christian, I believe there is something more than just my physical existence, so the idea of death doesn't signify to me what it signifies to you. Being with God in spirit and dead in the body is much better than being alive in the body and dead in Christ. You hold the opposite view because you leave Christ out of the equation. That is a fatal premise when arguing the benefit or lack thereof of developing our physical existence in society or in our individual bodies. I wouldn't want to live forever in this body because I realize that there is something better than this.

The point is you can create something better than this. There is nothing we are not capable of. About the only thing we cannot do is destroy the universe. Aside from that, anything you want, you can create, eventually.

 

[tttppp]

Why is that a problem, where atheists say the universe had no beginning we say God had no beginning, we're just shifting the logic from one noun to another.

If you said God was just PART of the universe, then I would agree with you. The part I disagree on is where you guys say God created the universe and that the universe is finite.

For example, if you said God create us, the earth, the sun, and the planets...that could be possible. But thats different than saying God created the universe.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

The universe having no beginning or end is the only possible way it could be in existence. Now you will probably say that God created the universe. But then you run into the problem of who created God.

It's not a problem at all. God is eternal and didn't need a creator because He had no beginning. The universe did have a beginning. Everything that exists had a beginning. You had a beginning. We see that, within the constraints of the laws of the universe, everything had a beginning. However, God is not subjected to the laws of the universe, so it is not necessary for Him to have a beginning. Only things in this universe, including matter and energy itself, had to have a beginning.

Saying that there was a bunch of matter floating through space for eternity before it finally started to evolve into us doesn't solve your problem. First, you have to explain how something can exist for eternity before anything happens to it. Secondly, you have to explain WHY the universe all of a sudden decided to start evolving.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

The universe having no beginning or end is the only possible way it could be in existence. Now you will probably say that God created the universe. But then you run into the problem of who created God.

//

 

[PaulConventionWV]

If you said God was just PART of the universe, then I would agree with you. The part I disagree on is where you guys say God created the universe and that the universe is finite.

For example, if you said God create us, the earth, the sun, and the planets...that could be possible. But thats different than saying God created the universe.

The universe is just part of God. It can be finite without God being finite.

I don't see why saying God created us, the earth, the sun, and the planets is so much different than saying He created the whole universe. All you have to do is add a few more things to the list of things that God created, and it would be the whole universe? Are you saying God can only have created 4 things? Where did you come up with that idea?

I think you are assuming that the universe is infinite and then saying an infinite God cannot create another infinite being. You would be correct, and that's why the universe is finite. It is only a partial representation of God. We are allowed to see 2 dimensions and perceive 3, but there could be more than that. The fact that we can only perceive 3 dimensions does not mean that there are not more and that God could not have created us to only sense those 3.