Kokesh on Atheism + Libertarians

[eduardo89]

The best thing about the Ron Paul movement is that it brings together a large segemant of the populace that would otherwise just hate each other because of our diffrences instead of figuring out our diffrences are pretty small and our simularties are much larger.

People who don't seem to bother registering republican and going to the polls, it seems. Not the best strategy to win the GOP nomination, that's just my opinion though.

 

[nojusticenopeace]

In our "environment and circumstances" it makes no difference what the stereotypical GOP voter thinks of us. They've already made up their mind via FoxNews that were just another LaRouchite cult with whacked out anti-American ideas. If you think that keeping the same strategy that has given us another "also ran" popular vote result, it would appear that you're the one wearing the blinders and ignoring both reality and logic.

The same people that make these comments here, which would be the majority also rail and get angry with people suggesting Paul leads the republican party. They want to stay in the Republican Party, yet they don't want to frame a message for the Republican party. Either frame the message right or leave the republican party...these people don't want to do either.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Apparently you have forgotten that Ron Paul has been shunned by the GOP leadership and voters alike. There is still a slight chance of a delegate victory at the convention, but we're long past the point of playing nice and pandering to the base. Now is the time to open up our message and appealing to those who aren't rank-and-file moderate protestant republican constitutional-originalists and try to grow our support amongst the wider population.

Well, smarty pants, you'd better inform Ron Paul of your decision to wreck his campaign's efforts then.

When you keep trying to stifle discussion and people that are working to engage disparate peoples, you are creating a problem of insularity and stubbornness, which doesn't help our image as a "cult".

Everyone is welcome in this movement. The problem starts when someone like Kokesh tries to stamp libertarianism and this movement as a pack of atheists. It's a lie and it is very harmful to the movement's future.

If you can't see that we're past trying to pretend that we're all homogenous automatons of the GOP, you are not engaging your brain.

No one claimed that. What I said was that Ron Paul is trying to win the nomination of the Republican Party. He clearly will not win it outright. The only chance he has is on the 2nd vote in a brokered convention, when all the delegates are free to vote their consciences. You know, the REPUBLICAN delegates. If you think it would be helpful to paint libertarianism and this movement as a pack of atheists, as Kokesh did, you have a screw loose.

 

[slamhead]

Adam is just an immature guy. Had a history of being immature in the military and constantly violated military rules and the UCMJ (even before his exit). He wasn't responsible and was a junior enlisted guy. He hasn't done much with his life besides make an ass out of himself, getting arrested every other time he goes out. He does immature things like taking the microphone in front of Bachmann's campaign bus yelling things into it with just a few people around.

He reminds me of a high school student constantly in trouble for nothing major, just stupid immature things. He hasn't grown up yet, nor will he ever.

To quote Ernest Hancock from For Liberty. "And we had fun, because if you are not having fun you are so doing it wrong".

 

[pcosmar]

So nice try.

I have been pretty impressed with most of his activism.
I do disagree with the atheism, but everyone has a right to their own religious beliefs.

Many don't like that he ignores the false Left/Right paradigm, and will work together with all folks.

Pretty much anytime someone starts with "left wing' or "right wing" I discount it as the pile of horseshit it is.

 

[Elfshadow]

People who don't seem to bother registering republican and going to the polls, it seems. Not the best strategy to win the GOP nomination, that's just my opinion though.

I registered republican, which I need to fix asap, and voted.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Pete, if you haven't done so yet, watch the video. I think you will have an issue with the message he is sending.

 

[eduardo89]

I registered republican, which I need to fix asap, and voted.

I'm glad, but you're the exception, not the rule.

Truth is you cannot win the GOP nomination by courting atheists, leftists and independents. You can't even win it even if you get that vote and the moderates. You need the social conservative Christians.

 

[mczerone]

The same people that make these comments here, which would be the majority also rail and get angry with people suggesting Paul leads the republican party. They want to stay in the Republican Party, yet they don't want to frame a message for the Republican party. Either frame the message right or leave the republican party...these people don't want to do either.

Here's a message to give the republican party: We're a diverse group of enthused people that tried to warn you about keeping the same old big-government values. Because you didn't listen to us we're going to get another 4 years of the same decades-old policies that have ruined America. We're through trying to "save" you through missionary work within your party. Some of us are going to try to take over the party using their own rules, and others are going to give up on the GOP. The future belongs to those who aren't exactly like you, and you missed out on embracing their message of tolerance and liberty.

We've worked on framing a message for the republic party for 5 years. Some have done this in in ways that others don't think were helpful. But rather than walking around trying to tell people to shut up, what were you doing to reach out to the people you thought the more "radical" messages were alienating?

I've given Liberty Eagle's "keep the non-typical GOP talk to a minimum" a lot of leeway over the years. But it's past time to keep our mouths shut. Now is the time to speak truth to the power that has all-but expelled Ron Paul from the GOP. Kokesh may not be the best messenger for whatever you feel "our" cause is - but we should encourage him AND EVERYONE to get out there and speak their mind.

Kokesh has shown more professionalism and event-planning-skills than 99.5% of the active posters here. I don't always agree with him, or think that he's giving the best arguments/presentation. But I'm not going to question him or think that he should be quieter. If it bugs me enough, I'll have to get out there and spread more media than he does, throw bigger events with better speakers/performers.

Until then, his sub-optimal message is better than anything you're doing.

 

[mczerone]

Pete, if you haven't done so yet, watch the video. I think you will have an issue with the message he is sending.

The message where he never says Ron's name? The message that says "the same attitude that leads people to question religion is the same attitude that leads them to question governance?" The message that's clearly about an-caps, objectivists, and libertarians, and NOT about constitutional conservatives?

Sorry, I don't see anything in this video that is offensive, even to devout GOP-appeasers.

 

[LibertyEagle]

The message where he never says Ron's name? The message that says "the same attitude that leads people to question religion is the same attitude that leads them to question governance?" The message that's clearly about an-caps, objectivists, and libertarians, and NOT about constitutional conservatives?

Sorry, I don't see anything in this video that is offensive, even to devout GOP-appeasers.

1. Ron Paul endorsed his run for office.
2. In the last campaign, Kokesh spoke at a RP event.

I would imagine that by this time there may be much regret about the above, but the fact remains, since they happened, what Kokesh says and does rubs off on Ron Paul. Kokesh is well aware of it and leverages it every chance that he gets.

In this video, Kokesh implies that true libertarianism means atheism. What a pack of **&&^%.

If you have missed it, Ron Paul uses the term "libertarian" quite often, even going so far as to refer to libertarian Republicans. Are you sure it's beneficial to paint libertarianism as an atheist movement? Seriously?

 

[mczerone]

Libertarianism has no moral foundation if you take religion out of the equation. From an atheistic perspective, no ideology is right, but rather all are personal preferences. In many historical instances, a godless society worships a totalitarian state instead. Some atheist libertarians like Ayn Rand worship themselves.

There is at least one non-religious moral foundation, founded upon the argumentation ethic.

In many historical instances, a religious society worshiped the state as the god-on-earth instead.

 

[LibertyEagle]

There is at least one non-religious moral foundation, founded upon the argumentation ethic.

In many historical instances, a religious society worshiped the state as the god-on-earth instead.

Uh, no, those were atheists who did that. Come on, man. Be proud and OWN it.

 

[eduardo89]

I honestly don't even know how you can truly justify rights without God. Liberterianism relies on God-given rights.

 

[Athena]

I honestly don't even know how you can truly justify rights without God. Liberterianism relies on God-given rights.

Lacking a god, legal rights become sufficient. They also tend to happen to "work" better than the supernatural ones.

 

[eduardo89]

Lacking a god, legal rights become sufficient. They also tend to happen to "work" better than the supernatural ones.

Legal rights? So the government grants rights? lol

 

[mczerone]

1. Ron Paul endorsed his run for office.
2. In the last campaign, Kokesh spoke at a RP event.

I would imagine that by this time there may be much regret about the above, but the fact remains, since they happened, what Kokesh says and does rubs off on Ron Paul. Kokesh is well aware of it and leverages it every chance that he gets.

In this video, Kokesh implies that true libertarianism means atheism. What a pack of **&&^%.

If you have missed it, Ron Paul uses the term "libertarian" quite often, even going so far as to refer to libertarian Republicans. Are you sure it's beneficial to paint libertarianism as an atheist movement? Seriously?

If you think that Kokesh is just a "Paulite," and whenever he speaks he is just a mouthpiece for Paul, you are mistaken. Kokesh is not employed by the campaign, and anyone viewing just this video wouldn't associate him at all to Ron Paul.

Kokesh doesn't "impl[y] that true libertarianism means atheism." He says that atheists are ripe for the libertarian message. He doesn't say all libertarians are atheists, or that they have to be non-religious. He says the converse of that: that those who have questioned popular religion are highly likely to be able to rationally question the role of government.

Lastly, why not paint libertarianism as an atheistic movement? It's the fastest growing "religious" identification the world over. I'm not at all hostile to people that are religious, and certainly true libertarians wouldn't prohibit anyone from holding any personal beliefs.

You're all uptight about alienating this idea of the stereotypical GOPer, but can't you see that they're not going to be alienated any more that they already are? Why don't we embrace diverse messages, at least to show them that we're not all the same cult-member? Wouldn't a great number of GOPers admire the fact that some of us hold personal beliefs that are strong, but respect their right to hold whatever beliefs they have?

Are you sure it's beneficial to paint libertarianism as a "Ron Paul is a god-king and the GOP is our church" movement that appeals to the culture that is shrinking and literally dying off? Seriously?

 

[Elfshadow]

I honestly don't even know how you can truly justify rights without God. Liberterianism relies on God-given rights.

Ummm.... no it don't. Rights do not come from a creator. They come from self-ownership and our ability to reason.

 

[mczerone]

Uh, no, those were atheists who did that. Come on, man. Be proud and OWN it.

The Church of England and the Holy Roman Republic were not atheistic.

 

[eduardo89]

Ummm.... no it don't. Rights do not come from a creator. They come from self-ownership and our ability to reason.

But we don't own ourselves. We are merely stewards of our bodies, they belong to God. As does our life. That's why we have no right to take another's life or enslave his body.