Judge Napolitano "Immigration is a right."

[Brian4Liberty]

I get the point. I just want to know if you can back it up. So far it's just you making a claim without any evidence.

You said you want the government to follow the Constitution. That means it should only exercise the powers enumerated in the Constitution. That means that, unless the Constitution explicitly empowers the federal government to dictate our culture to us, then following their oath of office would entail not doing that. If you think that dictating culture to us is constitutional, then the ball's still in your court. The Constitution is available for free all over the internet. Just find the part where it says the federal government can dictate our culture to us and cite it.

When you keep refusing to cite where in the Constitution it does that, it comes across as an admission that it doesn't.

Piers Morgan and many others, including Supreme Court justices, would say that America's "gun culture" is dictated by the Constitution. Some cultures would say that Free Speech is a cultural tradition. Suffrage Amendment? Other cultures might say that's a cultural issue. Is female circumcision banned at the Federal level? No doubt most cultural norms are regulated at the State/Local level instead of Federal.

 

[erowe1]

Piers Morgan and many others, including Supreme Court justices, would say that America's "gun culture" is dictated by the Constitution. Some cultures would say that Free Speech is a cultural tradition. Suffrage Amendment? Other cultures might say that's a cultural issue. Is female circumcision banned at the Federal level? No doubt most cultural norms are regulated at the State/Local level instead of Federal.

Do you agree with Piers Morgan about that?

It doesn't make sense to me. Lots of Americans hate guns, and the federal government hasn't punished them for that.

 

[erowe1]

I already did back it up by providing an example. You really are not getting the point.

Oh sorry. I missed it. What post is this in?

ETA: I went back through your posts, and no, there isn't one where you back up your claim with any evidence. If you do have any evidence, I would still like to see it. If you feel that you have a point that I am not getting, I assure you the problem is in the delivery and not the reception of it.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Do you agree with Piers Morgan about that?

It doesn't make sense to me. Lots of Americans hate guns, and the federal government hasn't punished them for that.

You asked for examples. I gave many. The Constitution has taken a side in the issue of guns.

When government takes a side on a cultural issue, it's usually a ban, which happens more at the State/Local level.

 

[erowe1]

You asked for examples. I gave many. The Constitution has taken a side in the issue of guns.

When government takes a side on a cultural issue, it's usually a ban, which happens more at the State/Local level.

I asked for evidence that dictating our culture to us is any of the federal government's business. You didn't give any. Your other examples are no better than the Piers Morgan one. Do you really think the Constitution empowers the federal government to dictate to me that I must fit into some kind of gun culture?

 

[dinosaur]

Oh sorry. I missed it. What post is this in?

You read and quoted the post already. The Bill of Rights contains cultural values. As I already stated, it dictates to us that individual rights are to take precedence over communal interests. It enumerates many of these instances. Therefore culture is dictated in the constitution. If it is impossible to set up a culturally neutral form of goverment, then the choice become what type of cultural values do we want our government to reflect. Our constituiton makes a value choice and dictates that individual rights are more important than communal rights. Other cultures make different value choices that reflect their cultural values. Many, if not most, of the people in our country are also choosing to make different value choices, and enshrining those in law. The battle to restore our constituion is a cultural war, and there will always be a losing side.

If you want to keep insisting that I'm saying that the constitution states that government has the right to dictate culture, then you are missing the point.

ETA: I went back through your posts, and no, there isn't one where you back up your claim with any evidence. If you do have any evidence, I would still like to see it. If you feel that you have a point that I am not getting, I assure you the problem is in the delivery and not the reception of it.

If you want an example of what you think I'm saying, instead of what I'm actually saying your search wouldn't be fruitful, would it?

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I asked for evidence that dictating our culture to us is any of the federal government's business. You didn't give any. Your other examples are no better than the Piers Morgan one. Do you really think the Constitution empowers the federal government to dictate to me that I must fit into some kind of gun culture?

Yes, I did. You are living in a gun culture, like it or not. The entire gun debate revolves around the efforts of those who want to ban guns, versus the Second Amendment. Go try to circumcise your daughter. The government will have something to say about that. What to use some unapproved drug in your religious ceremony? Santa Obama will send the DEA for you.

 

[erowe1]

Yes, I did. You are living in a gun culture, like it or not.

No I'm not. Where did you get that idea?

ETA: Then again, maybe some would think I am. But if I am, it's by my own choice. If I and my neighbors chose not to have guns, the federal government would not have any right to dictate that we get some or that we do anything else to conform to whatever a gun culture is supposed to look like.

YGo try to circumcise your daughter. The [federal?] government will have something to say about that. What to use some unapproved drug in your religious ceremony? Santa Obama will send the DEA for you.

If the federal government did those things, would it be acting within its constitutionally enumerated powers?

 

[erowe1]

You read and quoted the post already. The Bill of Rights contains cultural values. As I already stated, it dictates to us that individual rights are to take precidence over communal interests.

Could you quote where it does this? And when you do, could you explain how that entails empowering the federal government to dictate our culture to us?

It enumerates many of these instances.

Such as?

Therefore culture is dictated in the constitution.

Just to be clear, the debate is not about some vague abstraction about the Constitution dictating something cultural to someone, it's about whether or not the Constitution empowers the federal government to dictate our culture to us.

If it is impossible to set up a culturally neutral form of goverment,

I'm not sure what you mean by a "culturally neutral form of government" (there's that lack of clarity again). But if you mean that it's impossible for us not to have our culture dictated to us by the government, then I would like to see the evidence you base that on.

then the choice become what type of cultural values do we want our government to reflect

I don't see what government "reflecting" cultural values has to do with it. Does a government's reflection of cultural values have to entail its dictating to people what their culture is to be?

Our constituiton makes a value choice and dictates that individual rights are more important than communal rights.

You're making things worse by taking the word I'm using and applying it differently. The Constitution doesn't dictate anything at all to the American people. It only dictates things to the federal government. And even then, it doesn't dictate to the federal government what it must be like, only what it must not be like, by prohibiting it from exercising powers beyond those the Constitution enumerates. In order for the federal government to have the power to dictate culture to the American people, that would have to be enumerated in the Constitution.

Other cultures make different value choices that reflect their cultural values.

Correct. And the federal government has no business telling us we can't fit into those other cultures.

If you want to keep insisting that I'm saying that the constitution states that government has the right to dictate culture, then you are missing the point.

But that is the point at issue. If you mean to admit that the federal government does not have any business dictating our culture to us (as I said in the post that began this discussion), then please do. If you don't admit that, then I assume you disagree with it.

If you want an example of what you think I'm saying, instead of what I'm actually saying your search wouldn't be fruitful, would it?

I didn't ask for an example of what you're saying. I've already seen you repeat what you're saying multiple times. You just haven't supported it with any evidence. If you do have any evidence to support your claims, I'd still be interested in seeing it.

 

[dinosaur]

I didn't ask for an example of what you're saying. I've already seen you repeat what you're saying multiple times. You just haven't supported it with any evidence. If you do have any evidence to support your claims, I'd still be interested in seeing it.

If you don't think that the example I cited is evidence, then please actually argue why.

Just to be clear, the debate is not about some vague abstraction about the Constitution dictating something cultural to someone, it's about whether or not the Constitution empowers the federal government to dictate our culture to us.

I chose specific words for a specific reason; it was to convey a specific meaning. Why do you want to argue about a statement that was never made?

But that is the point at issue.

It is the point that you are fixated on, but it has nothing to do with whether or not it is possible to set up a culturally neutral government.

Correct. And the federal government has no business telling us we can't fit into those other cultures.

But our constitution does do this. And Brian has already provided an example of that.

 

[erowe1]

If you don't think that the example I cited is evidence, then please actually argue why.

I still don't see any example that you gave. Exactly what string of words quoted from the Constitution were included in your example?

I chose specific words for a specific reason; it was to convey a specific meaning. Why do you want to argue about a statement that was never made?

The statement we're arguing about is the following:

Maybe [there is an American culture]. But whether there is or isn't such a culture, what this culture should be if there is one, and whether such a thing should be preserved or changed, are none of the government's business.

As far as I can tell, you disagree with it. Although, admittedly, you never come right out and say you do. It's possible that you actually agree with it and are too entrenched to say so.

It is the point that you are fixated on, but it has nothing to do with whether or not it is possible to set up a culturally neutral government.

There you go again. What does "culturally neutral government" even mean?

If it means a government whose business does not include dictating our culture to us, then sure such a thing is possible.

But our laws do do this. And Brian has already provided an example of that

Our federal laws? Which ones? And are those laws constitutional?

 

[dinosaur]

I'm not sure what you mean by a "culturally neutral form of government" (there's that lack of clarity again). But if you mean that it's impossible for us not to have our culture dictated to us by the government, then I would like to see the evidence you base that on.

It is not possible to prove a negative, so you would have to provide an example of a goverment that has accomplished cultural neutrality. I offered the reason why the constitution fails to deliver that.

 

[dinosaur]

You're making things worse by taking the word I'm using and applying it differently. The Constitution doesn't dictate anything at all to the American people. It only dictates things to the federal government. And even then, it doesn't dictate to the federal government what it must be like, only what it must not be like, by prohibiting it from exercising powers beyond those the Constitution enumerates. In order for the federal government to have the power to dictate culture to the American people, that would have to be enumerated in the Constitution.

It dictates value choices.

 

[erowe1]

It is not possible to prove a negative, so you would have to provide an example of a goverment that has accomplished cultural neutrality. I offered the reason why the constitution fails to deliver that.

You have not offered such a reason, not once in this whole thread. I have asked and you just keep falling back on a claim with no evidence.

I still don't know what you mean by a "culturally neutral form of government." But you did claim that such a government is impossible. That is not a negative claim, it's a positive one. Can you support it or not? Do you base it on anything at all? You're the one who made the claim.

 

[erowe1]

It dictates value choices.

Please be more clear.

What is the antecedent of the pronoun "it"? The federal government? Or the Constitution?

If "it" is the federal government, then I would simply return to my original claim that the federal government has no business dictating value choices to us. In fact, the Constitution prohibits the federal government from doing that.

If "it" is the Constitution, then it doesn't dictate anything at all to the American people. It only dictates things to the federal government.

 

[Deborah K]

Good for the judge. Anything except open borders is not liberty.

I bet the native Americans from the founding era would disagree.

 

[dinosaur]

Please be more clear.

People use "it" after they have already once specified a meaning for "it" and do not want to keep repeating themselves. I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

What is the antecedent of the pronoun "it"? The federal government? Or the Constitution?

If "it" is the federal government, then I would simply return to my original claim that the federal government has no business dictating value choices to us. In fact, the Constitution prohibits the federal government from doing that.

You might think that the constitution has no business dictating anything cultural, but it (the bill of rights) does anyway.

If "it" is the Constitution, then it doesn't dictate anything at all to the American people. It only dictates things to the federal government.

Repeat myself again, really? No thanks, no amount of repeating myself is going to cause you to actually comment on the example I already gave.

 

[erowe1]

You might think that the constitution has no business dictating anything cultural, but it (the bill of rights) does anyway.

To whom does it dictate this?

no amount of repeating myself is going to cause you to actually comment on the example I already gave.

But you haven't given any examples.

Nor, after claiming to have given one, have you even referred me to the post where you think it is. Your assertion to have given examples of places the Constitution empowers the federal government to dictate culture to us, much like your claim that the Constitution does that, is a mere assertion without any evidence.

 

[erowe1]

Can anybody find the example Dinosaur keeps mentioning?

 

[dinosaur]

Can anybody find the example Dinosaur keeps mentioning?

Here:

Originally Posted by dinosaur
It dictates the idea of respect for individual rights over collective rights. You will find this in the Bill of Rights. If you think that this is present in all cultures, think again

The example is the Bill of Rights. And the reason it is an example is that it champions one value system over other value systems. Specifically, it mandates respect for individual rights over collective rights, at least for the rights enumerated. I already mentioned people who believe that the rights of plants and animals trump human reproductive rights in an even earlier post...and this would be an example of a cultural value choice that is at odds with the system we have (or had) that places individual liberty and self-ownership above these types of values.

To whom does it dictate this?

To any subset of the population and their representative in congress.

There you go again. What does "culturally neutral government" even mean?

There is no secret definition, it means exactly what the words mean.