Judge Blocks Florida Law Requiring Welfare Applicants to Pass Drug Test

[Yieu]

i always love government restricting government. But why not eliminate welfare altogether? Or put in a plan to phase payments out?

This is not a restriction on government -- this is a vast expansion of government power. This is bigger government.

 

[Krugerrand]

This is not a restriction on government -- this is a vast expansion of government power. This is bigger government.

I guess it's a 1984 style restriction.

 

[Meatwasp]

Like someone else said,"If you decide to suck on the governments tit you pay the piper.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

why not check to see if welfare applicants have even been arrested, divorced, filed for bankruptcy, or returned a video late to Blockbuster?

 

[Yieu]

I guess it's a 1984 style restriction.

Indeed it is, and it is very likely to cost the taxpayers more than if they did not sign this bill into law and simply did nothing.

Bigger government? Check
Higher cost to taxpayers? Check
Denial of some of the most important rights enshrined within the constitution? Check

Why would anyone here think this is a good thing again?

 

[pcosmar]

Why would anyone here think this is a good thing again?

Um,,Cause it's somebody else.

 

[tropicangela]

Raw Story reporting that ACLU filed a lawsuit yesterday.

PDF Complaint

"The government has to have a reason to search you and simply working for the state isn’t enough," said ACLU cooperating attorney Peter Walsh. "If earning a government check was enough to suspect someone of drug abuse, everyone who received any state benefit from walking a sidewalk to drinking clean water could be subject to an invasive government search."

 

[BamaAla]

Um,,Cause it's somebody else.

Or because I paid over $130,000 in taxes last year and am sick and tired of that money going to dead beat druggies to subsidize their lifestyle choices. By your own admission, you've been unemployed for 5 years, so you don't really have a big stake in an argument of this nature, so excuse those of us who do.

 

[pcosmar]

Or because I paid over $130,000 in taxes last year and am sick and tired of that money going to dead beat druggies to subsidize their lifestyle choices. By your own admission, you've been unemployed for 5 years, so you don't really have a big stake in an argument of this nature, so excuse those of us who do.

Well actually, I paid taxes in Florida for over 16 years as well as Property tax and sales tax on my home there. So i do have more to say than someone that doesn't live in Florida. or hasn't been working for 16 years yet.

I am presently is one of the worst welfare states and do pay property tax here.
and I can also guarantee (based on life experience) that this will have no affect on welfare or drug use.
It will only increase profits for testing facilities, and expenses for taxpayers.

 

[Danke]

You're running an airline, for instance - how willing do you think you will be to risk killing a couple of hundred people at a time by not testing your pilots for drugs and alcohol?

Commercial pilots are assholes WAY too often to ignore the risks their unchecked behaviors pose to a company's ability to stay in business.

How many reports are there of airline accidents attributed to pilots having drug or alcohol in their system? I have been in the business for a long time and haven't heard of any.

Airlines are not the ones who wish to test, it came from the government. God forbid if I smoked a joint a few weeks ago, my job would be ruined if tested.

 

[dejavu22]

I cant help but draw parallels between my feelings on this and the border issue. I feel a lot like Milton Freedman's assessment of immigration in that i disagree with the method of dealing with the problem at hand but realize that it is unlikely that the source of the problem will be addressed.

He once stated that even though he was a supporter of open borders that it was impossible to have both open borders and a welfare state. This issue is much the same. I dont care what other people put into their bodies and I take the libertarian position that all drugs should be legalized, but at the same time i dont think that i should have to subsidize other people's poor choices. With that in mind as a Florida resident i am largely indifferent towards this bill. Honestly food stamps if they exist at all should cover no more than what is expressly necessary to keep one alive. And in order to qualify you should have to exhaust all options. No cable, no internet, no drugs, no drinking, no car... true poverty. And by time you get to that point i guarantee that government subsidization would not be necessary charity would exceed the need.

 

[pcosmar]

How many reports are there of airline accidents attributed to pilots having drug or alcohol in their system? I have been in the business for a long time and haven't heard of any.

Airlines are not the ones who wish to test, it came from the government. God forbid if I smoked a joint a few weeks ago, my job would be ruined if tested.

No Shit
How did any business manage to survive prior to 1980.
And how many have disappeared since then.

think about that.

 

[KramerDSP]

Here is the PDF of the Lawsuit of Richard Flamm versus the State of Florida (this is referring to random drug testing at minimum of every three months, if not more, for 250,000+ Florida state employees, NOT the Welfare drug testing order).

http://www.aclufl.org/pdfs/Legal%20PDfs/2011-ACLU-AFSCMEComplaint.pdf

I think the ACLU has a great case. Does anyone know anything about Federal Judge Ursula Ungaro and how she leans judicially? She is the one who is being asked to file an injunction on Scott's executive order and squash the order entirely. I believe this will go all the way to the Supreme Court.

 

[osan]

Yes actually.
The drug screenings that are being done are a DIRECT result of the War on Drugs. Which is itself an assault on personal liberty.

Partially, yes, but not entirely. Liability is a much stronger driver.

BTW, What I do on my own time is NONE of an employers business.

It is if and when the residual effects of your activities spill over into your work duties. Would you assert that waking up from an intense acid trip on a Wednesday morning will find you in a state of complete competence to, say, make critical calculations on airframe structural designs?

Do what you want, of course, but do not expect others to agree that certain sorts of activity leave you in a state of utmost competence to perform your professional functions such that the company is not exposed to liability.

Complain all you want about these outrageous iniquities and I will join with you, but until the environment changes such that companies will not have to hold such high levels of concern for liability, this sort of thing will simply have to be. In many cases it will have to be anyway because regardless of environment, an employer will not want to risk being judged negligent by having hired a drug user.

Is anyone going to argue that drug use does not impair performance in certain classes of task? The truth may prove very complex - some people are more affected than others for this drug or that... who knows? The point is that the risk is there, it is real, and companies are in no way obligated to expose themselves to it. If we are to be free, then those hiring should be free to set standards of behavior for their employees.

Consider pro sports - the contracts now often state that the employee will be in breach if they engage in any activities that bring any ill-repute to the organization. Given the nature of that beast, I can fully understand why the teams would include this sort of requirement. Taking a public shit on their employers costs such teams a lot of money, PR capital, and so on. Why should they have to suffer such injuries because their employee insists on behaving in such ways?

Every coin has two sides.

And the BEST jobs I have had required no drug test.

Lucky you

 

[osan]

How many reports are there of airline accidents attributed to pilots having drug or alcohol in their system? I have been in the business for a long time and haven't heard of any.

That is utterly irrelevant. The world is choked with stupid, undisciplined people. Perception becomes truth. A plane goes down under questionable circumstances (not that uncommon) and what do the lawyers look for first: any path to liability. Whether the airline is actually "guilty" matters not a whit. What matters is what can be demonstrated by the preponderance of evidence. You know fully well that plaintiff's counsel will work that angle for all it is worth. There is a whole lot more to this drug testing thing than just the questions of liberty. Sad, but true.

Airlines are not the ones who wish to test, it came from the government.

Shame on government.

 

[pcosmar]

Partially, yes, but not entirely. Liability is a much stronger driver.




It is if and when the residual effects of your activities spill over into your work duties. Would you assert that waking up from an intense acid trip on a Wednesday morning will find you in a state of complete competence to, say, make critical calculations on airframe structural designs?

Liability? How was that handled prior to the War on Drugs?

I would also point out that Drug testing does not detect LSD.
However I did function and handle Military Weapon Systems while under the influence and afterwards,,, a long time ago.
my job performance was never questioned.

On the job drug testing was mandated by Insurance Industry in collusion with Government.
Employer Insurance was also mandated by that same Government.

And Businesses have been leaving this country for elsewhere ever since.
perhaps a coincidence.

 

[Danke]

That is utterly irrelevant. The world is choked with stupid, undisciplined people. Perception becomes truth.

You can't be an "undisciplined" person to achieve an Airline Transport Pilot Certificate.

Commercial pilots are assholes WAY too often to ignore the risks their unchecked behaviors pose to a company's ability to stay in business.

What are you referring to here?

 

[pcosmar]

You can't be an "undisciplined" person to achieve an Airline Transport Pilot Certificate.



What are you referring to here?

Apparently has never read "The Right Stuff"

 

[osan]

Are you going to take the choke hold off of the markets while you are at it?

Again, were I king, markets would be truly free. The only governing presence would exist in pursuit of the guaranty and defense of human rights against any threat posed by market players. I see this as a sad necessity due to the repeatedly demonstrated habit of some people/corporations to do the wrong things.

 

[Carehn]

They should test for water. Any one who has water in the system is out of luck.