Jim DeMint endorses Christine O'Donnell in DE and Ovide Lamontagne in NH

Oh, you're one of the antiwar Dems who make the Republican voters dislike RP so much.

No, I'm probably closer to a paleo-conservative who gave up pretending the GOP was my friend.

I like Ron Paul's approach of standing up against his own party. Partisan shills who only oppose big government when the Democrats are for it, but vote for big government when the Republicans support it (which is what Republicans do when they're in the majority), instead of voting "no" along with the Democrats on those votes, like Ron Paul does, don't excite me.

So yeah, since I'm a Ron Paul supporter, I think that someone who can be counted on as a solid Republican vote, especially when the Republicans are in the majority, is a bad thing. We need to reform the party. And more McCains, McConnells, and O'Donnells (if your characterization of her as a reliable party-line Republican is correct), aren't going to do that.
 
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You didn't read my post close enough.

You are in error yet again.

It doesn't say different neocons have different domestic policies.

The article states what the typical neocon economic position is.

If there wasn't a typical neocon postion, (big government) it wouldn't be in the article. So there is a typical neocon position in favor of big government.

Any Conservative republican talking about limited Constitutional Government is not a neocon.

And stop pretending they are.

Antiwar is a fringe minority in the Republican Party. Ron Paul if he wanted to get votes from Conservative Republicans in a primary in 2012 is going to have to stop talking so much about antiwar. Ron Paul has the limited Constitutional Government track record. There are a lot of areas of agreement between him and typical teaparty conservatives. O'Donnell is just one of them, and I will admit that someone like Miller is closer to Ron Paul than O'Donnell is.

But they're both for less government, and neocons are for more government (typically).

I never said there is an orthodox neocon policy of big government at home (in fact, isn't that what you were saying, not me?). There is no such thing as an orthodox neocon policy of any kind of government at home. As your own source indicates, different neocons have different domestic policies. But what makes them neocons is their foreign policy. A neoconservative who opposes the welfare state is still a neoconservative. If they happen to be in the minority of neoconservatives on that point it doesn't change that, since they hold to neoconservative ideology in the foreign policy issues that define it.

On the other hand, proponents of the welfare state who oppose democracy building are not neoconservatives, because, regardless of their domestic policy, they do not meet the definition of a neoconservative, which is all about foreign policy.

Just read that wikipedia article that you linked. It looks pretty good to me. The definition of "neoconservative" is right in the first sentence.


No it isn't. As your own source says, and as you have already admitted, in the parts I bolded in my previous comment, and again in what you say below.


Right. So in other words, those things aren't part of the definition of a neoconservative. You can be a neoconservative and not be any of those things. The defining feature of neoconservatism is its foreign policy.

So, since, as you correctly say, some neoconservatives are not marxists, trotskyites, social liberals, trade unionists, or any other thing related to domestic policy, you can't say that any given person is disqualified from being a neoconservative on those grounds. This brings us back to the question of O'Donnell. Is she a neoconservative? I don't know if she is. I certain never accused her of being one. But since it's possible for someone with her domestic policies still to be a neoconservative, it can't be those that disqualify her from having the label attached to her. Does she have a neoconservative foreign policy? I don't know. You seem to have implied that she does. And if she does, then she's a neoconservative.

To put it another way. Some neoconservatives are not liberal on domestic policy. But what about foreign policy? Are there some neoconservatives who don't support foreign intervention to support democratic regimes? No, there are no neoconservatives who don't support that, because that is the defining feature of a neoconservative.



People who think that clearly don't know what neoconservatism is. Neoconservatism has nothing to do with a strong national defense. It has everything to do with a particular kind of non-defensive, interventionist, use of the military that actually makes us less safe. Strong defense Republicans like Pat Buchanan and John Hostettler are the opposite of neoconservatives, precisely because of that foreign policy difference.
 
Christines would vote for DeMint over McConnell. She's in the group with Rand, Miller, Angle, Buck and Lee. She's the tea party candidate in that race.

I will say that it does remain to be seen how the tea party candidates will vote in the long run. Hopefully they are large in number, and can build alliances with each other, so as to form a voting block against any possible big government Republicanism.

Remember, this is what Rand Paul is doing. Miller is almost certain to be an ally. I don't know enough about Lee Angle and Buck, but I'd guess that they'd share ideas with Rand. And I think O'Donnell will be in that group as well.

You haven't been following this race closely. The NRSC was in there, in a primary, without an incumbent in the race, running against her. She's a Constitutional Conservative. Ron Paul's people should be supporting her, but I do know there are some social conservative positions she has will keep some from supporting her, as well as not being antiwar.

No, I'm probably closer to a paleo-conservative who gave up pretending the GOP was my friend.

I like Ron Paul's approach of standing up against his own party. Partisan shills who only oppose big government when the Democrats are for it, but vote for big government when the Republicans support it (which is what Republicans do when they're in the majority), instead of voting "no" along with the Democrats on those votes, like Ron Paul does, don't excite me.

So yeah, since I'm a Ron Paul supporter, I think that someone who can be counted on as a solid Republican vote, especially when the Republicans are in the majority, is a bad thing. We need to reform the party. And more McCains, McConnells, and O'Donnells (if your characterization of her as a reliable party-line Republican is correct), aren't going to do that.
 
so we do owe Nixon.

Nixon was hand picked by the bankers to run for congress and replace a man they described as: the most dangerous man in D.C. who wished to abolish the federal reserve and end our nations debt. Nixon ended up winning, eventually becoming president and taking us off the gold standard which resulted in a comlete runaway growth in government. Yes, we "owe Nixon", but it isn't praise we owe him.
 
You didn't read my post close enough.

You are in error yet again.

It doesn't say different neocons have different domestic policies.

Yes it did:

Most of the founders were Trotskyites. Just talking about the foundations of neocon, that's all. Yeah, some weren't. I said there were a lot of communists. I don't think that I said that every single neocon was a card carrying member of the communist party.


But if that's not what you meant, and if you meant that all neoconservatives have the same domestic policies, then you're mistaken, they don't. Neoconsevatism is defined by foreign policy. Different neoconservatives have different domestic policies.
 
No, you're wrong. Again.

You might want to look again at the meaning of the word typical.

Anyway, I see that you have a profound misunderstanding of what a neocon is.

I suggest you read this, to prevent yourself from spreading a gross misunderstanding of what you think neocons are.

The standard Republican is not a neocon. The neocons are the ones who actively push for new wars. The standard Republican is for a strong national defense, whatever that might mean at the time. The neocons are the ones pushing the standard Republicans to adopt their position. But standard Republicans typically don't have the background of a neocon, they've never pushed for more wars, didn't create a philosophy of spreading democracy. They're simply adopting the standard, mainstream strong national defense philosophy of the moment. If Ron Paul's position became popular, standard Republicans could easily just switch positons. They could not vote for a new war as easy as they might've voted for an old war.

Here's the link An Introduction to Neoconservatism -by Gary North - who used to work for Ron Paul.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north180.html

After you read that, we can discuss it.





Yes it did:




But if that's not what you meant, and if you meant that all neoconservatives have the same domestic policies, then you're mistaken, they don't. Neoconsevatism is defined by foreign policy. Different neoconservatives have different domestic policies.
 
No, you're wrong. Again.

You might want to look again at the meaning of the word typical.
Why is that? Has there been some point in this discussion where our difference hinged on the meaning of the word "typical"?


Anyway, I see that you have a profound misunderstanding of what a neocon is.

I suggest you read this, to prevent yourself from spreading a gross misunderstanding of what you think neocons are.

The standard Republican is not a neocon. The neocons are the ones who actively push for new wars. The standard Republican is for a strong national defense, whatever that might mean at the time. The neocons are the ones pushing the standard Republicans to adopt their position. But standard Republicans typically don't have the background of a neocon, they've never pushed for more wars, didn't create a philosophy of spreading democracy. They're simply adopting the standard, mainstream strong national defense philosophy of the moment. If Ron Paul's position became popular, standard Republicans could easily just switch positons. They could not vote for a new war as easy as they might've voted for an old war.
How does any of this relate to our discussion?

I have never brought up whether or not most Republicans hold to a neoconservative foreign policy. Whether they do or not is beside the point. But if they do, then that makes them neoconservative in the only possible sense that matters.

Furthermore, if it is the case that supporting the welfare state is a defining feature of neoconservativism, then you can't use that criteria to exclude "standard Republicans" anyway, since unwavering support of the welfare state is clearly the "standard Repubican" position. So if the neoconservative foreign policy of democracy building is the "standard Republican" foreign policy (as you said above in posts 31 and 42 that it is), and if the only thing remaining in order to qualify one as a neoconservative is support for New Deal policies, and so on, then the only possible conclusion is that, indeed, "standard Republicans" (i.e. people who support both a neoconservative foreign policy and ever bigger government in domestic policy) are neoconservatives.

But regardless of what a standard Republican is, there's a definition of what a neoconservative is, and it's all about foreign policy, as you saw in that wikipedia article. The most that can be said about neoconservatives' domestic policies is that neoconservatives generally (or most neoconservatives) hold to this or that policy, where the ones that don't are still neoconservatives.

Here's the link An Introduction to Neoconservatism -by Gary North - who used to work for Ron Paul.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north180.html

After you read that, we can discuss it.
That's a good overview of the history of the movement and its key figures. But it doesn't define what neoconservativism is as an ideology, and not a movement, such that any given politician (as opposed to the intellectuals North talks about) can be said to have or not to have a neoconservative platform. Nowhere does he present what positions define when any given politician is advocating a neoconservative policy, as that wikipedia article does.

What's wrong with that wikipedia article anyway? I see that, although you were the one to introduce it into this discussion, you have since that time decided to rather stubbornly resist accepting the definition that article provides for what neoconservativism is. If you think it's possible to hold to a neoconservative foreign policy and still not be a neoconservative solely because of some domestic policy position, then the definition of "neoconservative" you're using is definitely not the one that article presents. Have you decided that it's not so good after all?

Also, going back through the discussion, I noticed above that you said that I thought anyone with O'Donnell's policy regarding terrorism is a neoconservative (post 31). I don't know how you could get that from anything I said. I certainly don't think that is a defining feature of neoconservativism. Nothing I have said in this thread comes anywhere close to implying that. In fact, I said the exact opposite very clearly in post #25.
 
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Christines would vote for DeMint over McConnell. She's in the group with Rand, Miller, Angle, Buck and Lee.

Side note: Rand has indicated lately that he will vote for McConnell. But I think that's just an acknowledgement, that the incoming freshmen senators are not going to be a large enough bloc to move the leadership vote.

FWIW, if I was a Delaware voter, I probably would have been leaning initially to Castle based on the "electability" question. But looking at the lengths that "the party" is going to, in order to discredit O'Donnell is appalling. I'd be considering voting for her now just to spite the party bigwigs. :mad:
 
there a really two facets of neconservatism, the one most associated with the term are mainly the pro israel think tank guys but the pentagon has a less discussed philosphy that is a strong component of it. it's basically the idea of never showing weakness as a way of staying on top. Of course it's not a good way of staying on top it's a good way of going bankrupt but this is the philosophy.
 
Interesting discussion...

Anyway, there's a real possibility Christine O'Donnell ousts Mike Castle in the primary.

http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2010/09/too-close-to-call-in-delaware.html

It looks like there’s a real possibility of a major upset in the Delaware Senate primary on Tuesday night, with insurgent conservative Christine O’Donnell leading longtime Congressman and Governor Mike Castle 47-44. That 3 point lead is well within the poll’s margin of error.
 
Obviously I'm no fan of O'Donnell, but I can't say that I'm not elated at the possibility of Mike Castle losing his primary. This would send a great message to the Bidens and liberal Republicans.
 
Ppp

Some question PPP's results, but I have seen outliers from all organizations.

PPP shows Ovide now 7 points behind and suggests that either he or Ayotte would defeat Hodes in the fall.

The PPP results for the NH Senate race are at http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_NH_912907.pdf

New Hampshire has an opportunity to elect a number of liberty minded individuals this year. I am a member of the FSP running for State Rep and have not been as excited about the potential for constitutional candidate victory since I've been a voter. I look forward to a great Tuesday primary!

Cam DeJong
 
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