Jesus doesn't put food on my table or fix my leaky pipes.

[BetterCallSaul]

None of that addresses my GunnyFreedom example.

The point is that a relationship with each other and nature used to be the center of any idea-narrative; turning attention away from that and toward abstract and academic, esoteric, philosophical concept model is what allows for ruling classes and exploitation. Whatever language or blah blah boring omg sola-fide is talking specifics of that narrative are not relevant, as this is conditioned by an epoch's respective economic and political immersion; that there is such a narrative, that we look at and listen to people talking about some bullshit, instead of being outside hearing about the stars and seasons and using our bodies, is what I am talking about.

 

[erowe1]

The point is that a relationship with each other and nature used to be the center of any idea-narrative;

Got any examples?

turning attention away from that and toward abstract and academic, esoteric, philosophical concept model is what allows for ruling classes and exploitation.

Got any examples?

 

[BetterCallSaul]

First set: Read Bachofen and Campbell, the Golden Bough and Tacitus and shit. The Dreaming Lady...Paleolithic man?

2nd: The Laws of Manu, the cults of the Pharaoh, the Old Testament, any doctrine of nobility anywhere, Plato and the gang, the Jesuits and Papacy, Spengler, Victoria, Jim Jones, Mitt Romney

 

[Sola_Fide]

None of that addresses my GunnyFreedom example.

The point is that a relationship with each other and nature used to be the center of any idea-narrative; turning attention away from that and toward abstract and academic, esoteric, philosophical concept model is what allows for ruling classes and exploitation.

No, what leads to ruling classes is the atheist/pagan idea that collective man in the state is a god on earth.

 

[BetterCallSaul]

Then why is the ruling class ruling more with more efficiency since jesus?

 

[otherone]

No, what leads to ruling classes is the atheist/pagan idea that collective man in the state is a god on earth.

Tyrants have justified their authority to rule by Divine Right since the beginning of civilization. It wasn't until the Age of Enlightenment that we commoners realized that these despots and their sycophantic clerics were full of shit.

 

[otherone]

It erased the entrenched religious statism of paganism.

...and replaced it with the entrenched religious statism of Christian Europe.

 

[Sola_Fide]

...and replaced it with the entrenched religious statism of Christian Europe.

"Christian Europe"? I don't think so. Mysticism and Roman Catholicism are not expressions of Christian cultures. It wasn't until the after the Reformation, which laid the foundation for the ideas of liberty in America, that a brief glimpse of a Christian culture existed.

 

[MelissaWV]

Tyrants have justified their authority to rule by Divine Right since the beginning of civilization. It wasn't until the Age of Enlightenment that we commoners realized that these despots and their sycophantic clerics were full of shit.

Of course it was. *looks at current Government*

Religion has been the most common origin for it, maybe, but tyrants have much more to choose from now. They prey on the fear of the populace and present themselves as a savior. Economic fears? Terrorists? Giant meteor heading for earth? Social concerns? Environmental zealotry? They all have their "gods" who use the fear and the concern as a way to show up as the one who'll save the day. For a large part of history, there was no greater fear than death and/or damnation, so there you go. God said I am the ruler, and God said follow me, and if you follow me you won't burn in hell, and your crops will flourish, and disease will be held at bay. The other folks are the evildoers, etc.. Honestly, most of that isn't rooted in religion. It's just all the same tactic: make them afraid, make them believe you're the only means to be safe.

 

[Theocrat]

Look to the Foundation

It doesn't matter how much I pray my problems don't get solved. Oh yes but it is God's will to have these problems remember Job or Abraham? Maybe I should sacrifice my child. Get real. You work. You provide or you elect to get on a govt entitlement program where your rent is paid & you get heat, food, cell phone & ??? Is that God? What about the child that dies at 3 years of age from cancer? Gods Will?

Jesus does put food on your table and fix your leaky pipes, but not in the way that you're thinking. Just answering this question may help you to see why I believe He does those things: Who made the natural ingredients that were necessary in forming a recipe for the food to eat, and Who made the raw materials in nature that were forged to make the tools to fix leaky pipes?

 

[otherone]

"Christian Europe"? I don't think so. Mysticism and Roman Catholicism are not expressions of Christian cultures. It wasn't until the after the Reformation, which laid the foundation for the ideas of liberty in America, that a brief glimpse of a Christian culture existed.

Says who? You?
You stand on the shoulders of giants and don't realize it. "Christian Culture" existed long before your prophet Gordon Clark interpreted it.
et suppositio nil ponit in esse

 

[otherone]

For a large part of history, there was no greater fear than death and/or damnation, so there you go. God said I am the ruler, and God said follow me, and if you follow me you won't burn in hell, and your crops will flourish, and disease will be held at bay. The other folks are the evildoers, etc.. Honestly, most of that isn't rooted in religion. It's just all the same tactic: make them afraid, make them believe you're the only means to be safe.

Now you're talkin'
It's always been good 'ol-fashioned statist fear-mongering. Fear has always been it's prime motivator.

 

[DamianTV]

Now you're talkin'
It's always been good 'ol-fashioned statist fear-mongering. Fear has always been it's prime motivator.

+Rep

For anything to survive, they have to be able to overcome their competition. Christianity also had competition. A lot. So means of discrediting all other religions and rejecting all other opposing logic is a means for that religion to survive. Throw in some fear mongering and a means of invalidating everything else and you have a complete circular logic. The survival of a religion is not based on executing its followers, but to make sure that the minds of the followers do not reject the ideas due to a lack of logic. There are people that arent christians any more and simply stopped believing because to them, something else made more sense. Putting conclusions that only support the religion itself are a means for that religion to not be rejected by a persons mind. Instilling a form of severe punishment into that religion also prevents people from thinking things that might cause them to reject the concept of that religion.

Then we get Christianity. Murder your wife if she sleeps around. Murder your disobedient children. Murder fags and homos. Murder all other non christians. Women should not ever speak in church. Its a-okay to have slaves. Its okay for men to sin against their wives and slaves as long as they dont die. Thou shall not kill, unless it is to murder your wife and who ever she is slutting around with, or a disobedient child, or a homo or non christian. Total self contradiction. And it is a means of that religions survival because fags do exist, disobedient children do exist, and sluts exist. But nobody really follows that any more, but god is infallible? Give me a break. Did god change? If god changed, why didnt the bible? Why would god have even created fags to begin with if he hates them so much? Rhetorical Questions, so I'll answer them for you. There are more levels to fear mongering than just fear of what the "good book" that demands murder of all these people. Fear of total rejection is one of them. People do not want to be rejected. And for any child the fear of being rejected by your parents for questioning the logic of the bible can cause stress levels equal to or exceeding the stress that a person can experience in times of war or for the loss of another family member.

Religion is a method of mind control. This good book is not good, it is absolutely repulsive. The good book endorses slavery. How can it still be good? Your bible endorses murder of people like me who disobey their Govt. How can that be a good book? This same book promotes people ending the lives of people for a plethora of different reasons, yet, this is what Morality is based on? Youre not supposed to pick and choose which parts of the bible youre supposed to believe in. Either you do or you dont and will burn in hell (more threats and fear mongering). I swear the only time that book gets anythign right is where Jesus gets pissed off at the Money Changers. Everything else is a playbook for todays politicians to use against the people. Govt wants you to fear terrorists. Govt wants you to only accept its way of thinking by repeatedly lying to you. Govt wants you to do harm (and will allow it) if you think somoene is a terrorist, or even opposes the status quo. Govt also demands that our modern money practices today are completely honest and there is no such thing as slavery, which also follows their false logic of Debt = Money and Slavery = Freedom. Most of us here have concluded that the Law is in direct contradiction with Morality, and I find it rather amazing that claims that Morality can only come from Religion because Murder is Moral in MANY religions. Eliminate any competition to christianity at any cost.

If you ask me, I'd say your Other Guy wrote that book.

 

[erowe1]

First set: Read Bachofen and Campbell, the Golden Bough and Tacitus and shit. The Dreaming Lady...Paleolithic man?

2nd: The Laws of Manu, the cults of the Pharaoh, the Old Testament, any doctrine of nobility anywhere, Plato and the gang, the Jesuits and Papacy, Spengler, Victoria, Jim Jones, Mitt Romney

So your model goes like this:

Way back in the 2nd century AD, at the time of Tacitus, in the Roman empire, there was no state or exploitation or classes.

But then, much later, at the time of the cults of the Pharaohs, in the 2nd millennium BC, all those things arose.

Do you want another try at that?

 

[BetterCallSaul]

I don't understand how you got that chronology...

you asked first for examples of stateless man and their culture and values, thus, the first set of examples, all of which explore and detail aspects of paleolithic life that demonstrate developed relationships with nature that necessarily decentralize political authority

while the second set are examples of government man and his philosophies that create and maintain entrenched cycles of dominance

 

[erowe1]

you asked first for examples of stateless man and their culture and values, thus, the first set of examples, all of which explore and detail aspects of paleolithic life that demonstrate developed relationships with nature that necessarily decentralize political authority

Really? Tacitus?

The rest are sources of comparative myth that explore lots and lots of things. If they deal at all with stateless societies, then you'll have to get more specific about where (which is what giving examples, such as I asked, would entail).

while the second set are examples of government man and his philosophies that create and maintain entrenched cycles of dominance

How do these examples fit into what you were saying? Are they from societies that previously had narratives of relationships, without classes and exploitation, and then evolved into narratives of abstract academic thinking, and suddenly exploitation arose?

 

[Sola_Fide]

Says who? You?
You stand on the shoulders of giants and don't realize it. "Christian Culture" existed long before your prophet Gordon Clark interpreted it.
et suppositio nil ponit in esse

Prophet? No, Jesus is the Prophet in these last days. But since you brought up Gordon Clark, what do you know about him?

Gordon Haddon Clark (August 31, 1902 – April 9, 1985) was an American philosopher and Calvinist theologian. He was a leading figure associated with presuppositional apologetics and was chairman of the Philosophy Department at Butler University for 28 years.

He was an expert in pre-Socratic and ancient philosophy and was noted for his rigor in defending propositional revelation against all forms of empiricism and rationalism, in arguing that all truth is propositional and in applying the laws of logic. His theory of knowledge is sometimes called Scripturalism.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Clark

An Introduction To Gordon Haddon Clark
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=192

 

[Schifference]

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[Schifference]

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