Jerusalem 'Fallout' Updates....

[Swordsmyth]

You make it sound like it's a fact that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, like it's a fact that Israel borders the Mediterranean. "Being a capital" is not a physical property of a city. It's not a fact. It's a moral idea, the essence of which is that the Israeli state (and not any present or future Palestinian state) should control Jerusalem. The question is: why should anyone endorse that moral idea? Well, for the people actually responsible for the decision, the reason is that propagating the idea aids Israeli nationalism. For people who have nothing but contempt for nationalism, Israeli or otherwise, it's hard to see any virtue in the idea, unless one positively likes violence., death, and destruction of property.

Bunk, Jerusalem is where they have located the seat of their government therefore it is their capital, that is a simple fact like the fact that Israel borders the Mediteranian.

And this apparently needs repeating AGAIN:

This needs repeating because all of the propagandists and virtue signalers are distorting the truth:


The irony is that what the president said does not concede those rights and claims. His recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital reflects a reality that it is the seat of Israel’s government and that, for the Jewish state, Jerusalem will always be its capital — there is no other city that could be. For Palestinians, they too no doubt cannot envision any city but Jerusalem as the capital of their state, if and when it emerges from moribund negotiations. The president’s statement does not rule that out: On the contrary, he said that the United States is not taking a position on “the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders.” Those questions, he said, “are up to the parties involved.”

More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/moving-u-...215434421.html​

 

[r3volution 3.0]

Bunk, Jerusalem is where they have located the seat of their government therefore it is their capital, that is a simple fact like the fact that Israel borders the Mediteranian.

No, it's a moral statement. That's the only reason anyone cares about it, including you. If the US came out and said "We recognize that Jerusalem is the place where the Israeli government in fact spends its time" no one would care. The dispute is over the implicit moral statement behind recognition (Israel has the right to Jerusalem), not some trivial matter of fact.

 

[Swordsmyth]

No, it's a moral statement. That's the only reason anyone cares about it, including you. If the US came out and said "We recognize that Jerusalem is the place where the Israeli government in fact spends its time" no one would care. The dispute is over the implicit moral statement behind recognition (Israel has the right to Jerusalem), not some trivial matter of fact.

No, it is merely dealing with the facts on the ground, what is a moral statement (and one we don't have a right to make) is refusing to recognize Jerusalem as their capital, this sends a message that we declare that they don't belong in Jerusalem. (East or West)

 

[r3volution 3.0]

No, it is merely dealing with the facts on the ground, what is a moral statement (and one we don't have a right to make) is refusing to recognize Jerusalem as their capital, this sends a message that we declare that they don't belong in Jerusalem. (East or West)

Let me get this straight....

Declaring that Jerusalem is their capital = mere statement of fact

Not declaring that Jerusalem is their capital = moral statement against them

...?

No, saying nothing is nothing; coming out with a statement either way is a moral statement. If Obama had come out and announced that the US does not recognize Jerusalem as the capital, he'd have been expressing moral support the Palestinians retaking Jerusalem, just as Trump's recent statement is moral support for the Israelis' retention of Jerusalem.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Let me get this straight....

Declaring that Jerusalem is their capital = mere statement of fact

Yes because THEY are the ones who decide where their capital is, THEY have made the moral statement when they declared Jerusalem their capital, we are simply complying with the determination THEY made and which it is their right to make. (If they make a "wrong" determination that is their responsibility)

Not declaring that Jerusalem is their capital = moral statement against them

...?

Yes because that is defying their determination, the determination that it is THEIR right to make.

No, saying nothing is nothing; coming out with a statement either way is a moral statement. If Obama had come out and announced that the US does not recognize Jerusalem as the capital, he'd have been expressing moral support the Palestinians retaking Jerusalem, just as Trump's recent statement is moral support for the Israelis' retention of Jerusalem.

The status quo was NOT "saying nothing" we have declared for a long time that Tel Aviv was their capital in contradiction of their determination that Jerusalem is their capital, which it is NOT our right to do.

What would be a moral statement on our part?
Declaring that Jerusalem shouldn't be divided and that a future Palestine can't have it's capital in E. Jerusalem.
Trump did NOT do this.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

Yes because THEY are the ones who decide where their capital is, THEY have made the moral statement when they declared Jerusalem their capital, we are simply complying with the determination THEY made and which it is their right to make. (If they make a "wrong" determination that is their responsibility)

It's not about what THEY did, it's about what WE just did, and what SOME OF US are now endorsing, or not.

Anyway, on a slightly different note, suppose that two years ago the US formally recognized Raqqa as the capital of ISIS.

....any objections to that?

Yes because that is defying their determination, the determination that it is THEIR right to make.

The status quo was NOT "saying nothing" we have declared for a long time that Tel Aviv was their capital in contradiction of their determination that Jerusalem is their capital, which it is NOT our right to do.

What would be a moral statement on our part?
Declaring that Jerusalem shouldn't be divided and that a future Palestine can't have it's capital in E. Jerusalem.
Trump did NOT do this.

See above, I don't think I have anything more to say about it

 

[Swordsmyth]

It's not about what THEY did, it's about what WE just did, and what SOME OF US are now endorsing, or not.

What we did takes place in the context of what they did, see my explanation above.

Anyway, on a slightly different note, suppose that two years ago the US formally recognized Raqqa as the capital of ISIS.

....any objections to that?

I would object to recognizing them as a sovereign state let alone recognizing their capital since necessity did not require it and they are morally reprehensible. (they were NOT in undisputed control of their territory, Syria still existed and their had been no end to their revolutionary war)

See above, I don't think I have anything more to say about it

We may be at a philosophical impasse.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

I would object to recognizing them as a sovereign state let alone recognizing their capital since necessity did not require it and they are morally reprehensible. (they were NOT in undisputed control of their territory, Syria still existed and their had been no end to their revolutionary war)

I figured you say something along those lines (and I'm not sure that that's really true, but I'm not going to argue about it).

Anyway, my reason for not endorsing their activities recognizing their capital would be more straightforeward: they're evil.

They were doing harmful things and didn't need any PR help to keep doing those things for longer.

We may be at a philosophical impasse.

I think so

 

[Swordsmyth]

I figured you say something along those lines (and I'm not sure that that's really true, but I'm not going to argue about it).

Anyway, my reason for not endorsing their activities recognizing their capital would be more straightforeward: they're evil.

They were doing harmful things and didn't need any PR help to keep doing those things for longer.

I await your demand that we withdraw recognition of Red China and a host of other evil regimes around the world.

Or is it just Israel that bothers you?

 

[goldenequity]

https://www.facebook.com/torahjews/videos/1531395573617934/

 

[Swordsmyth]

Where in the Torah does it say Jews can't have a state?
http://www.truetorahjews.org/qanda/source1

"Jews" is Irrelevant, the State of Israel exists, it controls Jerusalem and it has made Jerusalem it's capital, everyone else can deal with that or try to take it from them.

 

[Swordsmyth]

[h=1]Arabs Should Consider Economic Sanctions on U.S. Over Jerusalem: Lebanon[/h]
"The decision has no legal effect ... it deepens tension, ignites anger and threatens to plunge region into more violence and chaos," the Arab League said at 3 a.m. local time after hours of meetings that began on Saturday evening.

It said it would seek a U.N. Security Council resolution rejecting the U.S. move.

Lebanon's Foreign Minister Gebran Bassil said during the emergency meeting that Arab nations should consider imposing economic sanctions against the United States to prevent it moving its Israel embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv.

"Pre-emptive measures (must be) taken ... beginning with diplomatic measures, then political, then economic and financial sanctions," he said, without giving specific details.

The Arab League statement made no mention of economic sanctions.


More at: https://www.usnews.com/news/world/a...onomic-sanctions-on-us-over-jerusalem-lebanon

Please kick us out of the UN, then we can all laugh as it collapses without our money and we are better off without it.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

I await your demand that we withdraw recognition of Red China and a host of other evil regimes around the world.

Or is it just Israel that bother you?

It's any action by our rulers which tends to undermine life/property.

If unrecognizing red China would accomplish anything to that end (saving lives/property), I'd be all for it - not seeing the argument though.

For Israel, this has already caused deaths, injuries, and property damage which otherwise would not have occurred, for a gain of nothing.

 

[Swordsmyth]

It's any action by our rulers which tends to undermine life/property.

If unrecognizing red China would accomplish anything to that end (saving lives/property), I'd be all for it - not seeing the argument though.

For Israel, this has already caused deaths, injuries, and property damage which otherwise would not have occurred, for a gain of nothing.

Rioting Arabs caused deaths, injuries, and property damage, this doesn't even affect what they claim to want:

The irony is that what the president said does not concede those rights and claims. His recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital reflects a reality that it is the seat of Israel’s government and that, for the Jewish state, Jerusalem will always be its capital — there is no other city that could be. For Palestinians, they too no doubt cannot envision any city but Jerusalem as the capital of their state, if and when it emerges from moribund negotiations. The president’s statement does not rule that out: On the contrary, he said that the United States is not taking a position on “the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders.” Those questions, he said, “are up to the parties involved.”

More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/moving-u-...215434421.html


The truth is that they don't want Israel to have any part of Jerusalem, they don't want Israel to exist, but they are too weak or cowardly to accomplish those things on their own so they attempt to manipulate/blackmail the rest of the world into doing it for them.

I do not believe we should do their dirty work for them.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

Rioting Arabs caused deaths, injuries, and property damage, this doesn't even affect what they claim to want:

...which was entirely predictable and wouldn't have happened otherwise.

Meanwhile, there is no gain at all on the other side of the ledger.

It's the geopolitical equivalent of "fire!" in a crowded theatre.

The irony is that what the president said does not concede those rights and claims. His recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital reflects a reality that it is the seat of Israel’s government and that, for the Jewish state, Jerusalem will always be its capital — there is no other city that could be. For Palestinians, they too no doubt cannot envision any city but Jerusalem as the capital of their state, if and when it emerges from moribund negotiations. The president’s statement does not rule that out: On the contrary, he said that the United States is not taking a position on “the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders.” Those questions, he said, “are up to the parties involved.”

Irrelevant

 

[Swordsmyth]

...which was entirely predictable and wouldn't have happened otherwise.

Meanwhile, there is no gain at all on the other side of the ledger.

It's the geopolitical equivalent of "fire!" in a crowded theatre.

So you think that we should let whichever group happens to be the most violent and feral on the planet at any given time tell us that we can't do whatever they feel like even though we not only have a right to do so but a duty to?

 

[r3volution 3.0]

So you think that we should let whichever group happens to be the most violent and feral on the planet at any given time tell us that we can't do whatever they feel like even though we not only have a right to do so but a duty to?

I think we shouldn't undertake actions which cause net harm (in this case, nothing but harm).

There's certainly no duty to do such things.

 

[goldenequity]

"Jews" is Irrelevant, the State of Israel exists, it controls Jerusalem and it has made Jerusalem it's capital, everyone else can deal with that or try to take it from them.

This entire global 'discussion' on Jerusalem is custom made for them (Orthodox Jewery)

Their activism has been always been trying raise the public awareness
to RECOGNIZE 'Zionism' as a distinct and separate entity APART from themselves.
That's been their #1 frustration: to distinguish Zionism from Judaism.

Most Christians from experience do not see/understand the difference.
I could go into a whole treatise here but I'll just cut to the chase:
I believe everything from 1948 forward was a man-made 'false' re-gathering..
and what's emanated from it since is a spiritual Frankenstein.
It's 'fruit' is rotten.
What/where they claim as their 'capital' makes no difference to me.
I honestly don't see it as a 'fulfillment' of anything even CLOSE
to what the Scriptures describes as that 'event'...
when the LORD (himself) shall gather his people.

Bottom line 4 me: It's a political entity not a spiritual one...
It's just as malevolent as any other government on Earth.
It could even suffer destruction.... with every Christian's jaw hanging slack.
but
not one jot nor tittle will be out of place because of it. Selah.

 

[Swordsmyth]

This entire global 'discussion' on Jerusalem is custom made for them (Orthodox Jewery)

Their activism has been always been trying raise the public awareness
to RECOGNIZE 'Zionism' as a distinct and separate entity APART from themselves.
That's been their #1 frustration: to distinguish Zionism from Judaism.

Good for them, I wish them luck.

Most Christians from experience do not see/understand the difference.
I could go into a whole treatise here but I'll just cut to the chase:
I believe everything from 1948 forward was a man-made 'false' re-gathering..
and what's emanated from it since is a spiritual Frankenstein.
It's 'fruit' is rotten.
What/where they claim as their 'capital' makes no difference to me.
I honestly don't see it as a 'fulfillment' of anything even CLOSE
to what the Scriptures describes as that 'event'...
when the LORD (himself) shall gather his people.

I think you are close enough to right that where my opinion differs makes no difference, but I do think that GOD allowed the state of Israel to be created perhaps as punishment for the muslims and perhaps to be used as a placeholder for HIS Israel that he will yet bring forth.

Bottom line 4 me: It's a political entity not a spiritual one...
It's just as malevolent as any other government on Earth.

And just like every other sovereign nation it gets to decide the location of it's capital within the territory it controls and we have to deal with it.

It could even suffer destruction.... with every Christian's jaw hanging slack.
but
not one jot nor tittle will be out of place because of it. Selah.

AMEN, GODs work can't be frustrated, if it were necessary he would use biblical level miracles to create HIS Israel in spite of whatever happened to this one, but he may chose to reform this Israel into HIS.

 

[goldenequity]

Sunday...

Western Jerusalem

1st stabbing incident since Trump announcement, Stab Attack on Israeli guard in central bus station in Western Jerusalem, Palestinian arrested
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQr6LbeU8AEsVo_.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQr6LbPVQAEM3ut.jpg:large

Lebanon

Intense clashes breakout in front of US Embassy in Beirut
https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/breaking-intense-clashes-breakout-front-us-embassy-beirut/

Lebanon: US embassy protesters blasted by water cannon and tear gas



Protesters have clashed with Lebanese security forces outside the US embassy near the capital, Beirut, the latest demonstration against US President Donald Trump's decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
https://www.rt.com/news/412627-us-embassy-beirut-riots-jerusalem/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


Protesters have clashed with Lebanese security forces outside the US embassy near the capital, Beirut, the latest demonstration against US President Donald Trump's decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42298782



Turkey

BREAKING: Turkey's Erdogan calls Israel 'terrorist state' and 'killer of children' - @i24NEWS_EN



Lebanon

The Hill-
Lebanese foreign minister: Arab nations should take "preemptive measures" against US over Jerusalem decision
http://thehill.com/policy/internati...tions-should-consider-measures?rnd=1512863427

Lebanon urges Arab League to #sanction #US over #Jerusalem decision
https://www.rt.com/news/412596-arab...rome&utm_campaign=chrome#.WizT1gbtBLk.twitter


Arab League foreign ministers hold an emergency meeting in Cairo, Egypt December 9, 2017

Iraq

Iraqi FM says Trump Jerusalem decision is “declaration of war” (source??)



Iran

Iran: Rouhani lays out conditions for restoration of Saudi ties (U can guess what they R )



Iranian President Hassan Rouhani stated on Sunday that Iran was ready to “re-establish our relations” with Saudi Arabia.
He made the comments during a presentation of the budget plan for the next Iranian fiscal year, at the Iranian Parliament in Tehran.





SE Asia/Pacific

Thousands in Indonesia take to Jakarta streets to protest Trump's decision on Jerusalem
http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/indonesians-continue-protests-against-us-jerusalem-decision

Australia won't follow US in move to Jerusalem
https://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/bosnian/en/audiotrack/australia-wont-follow-us-move-jerusalem

Malaysia Says Its Armed Forces Are 'Ready' After Trump's Jerusalem Decision
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/1.828035
Thousands protested outside the U.S. embassy in Indonesia's capital of Jakarta on Sunday, many waving banners saying 'Palestine is in our hearts'

========

Israel’s Netanyahu just arrived to Paris for lunch planned long time ago with France’s Macron. Trump’s decision to move US embassy to Jerusalem is most likely to be discussed today.

=======

Bill amendment will allow Israeli PM to go to war without government approval
http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news...n-go-to-war-without-government-approval-32950
(what could go wrong?)

A new initiative by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu would allow him to decide on going to war with only the approval of the security cabinet, and not the full cabinet, Channel 2 reported Sunday.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Po...-war-without-broad-government-approval-502339