Japanese nuclear plant may only have a few hours....

this is nuts .. and something else that anti-nuclear power people can pull out of their pockets to justify a ban.


Well, this event sort of underscores their points. May I take it that you are able to appreciate the gravity of such an event? If it is indeed so that the walls and roof of the containment vessel have been destroyed, it would follow that an enormous amount of very dangerous material is now on the loose. The consequences of this, while yet to be seen, may be extrapolated in part based on the experiences from the catastrophic reactor failures at Chelyabinsk and Chernobyl. These killed hundreds of thousands of people from cancers contracted as a result of exposure. Those were very remote locations. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a remote location in Japan, what with some 150 million people squashed into an area smaller than California. Depending on how much got out, the particular makeup of the materials in question (doubt there is plutonium involved, but people are so nuts anymore, nothing can really be taken for granted, I suppose), and where it gets blown, this could kill tens of millions of people over the next decade or so.

I'm all for free enterprise, but the nuclear energy thing is eminently questionable and this event illustrates why.
 
"The walls of a building at a nuclear power station crumbled Saturday following an explosion only hours after Japanese officials said they feared the reactor could melt down....

Note the use of indefinite article "a building"

Noted. I sure wish people would report shit more precisely than they do sometimes. Seriously, there is a HUGE difference between saying THE building crumbled and A building did. Basic language skills here folks. Basic communications. It's not a joke, either.
 
Wow. So the exposure is actually greater than 1 year's worth. If true it could be much higher.

I f you are getting a year's worth per hour, the exposure rate is better than 8,700 times "normal". You are fucked. The people of the surrounding areas are all fucked. Utterly, completely, and sadly so. If you are exposed for 1 day, you have 24 years worth of exposure. If this is indeed the level of contamination, then by now all those people are nothing better than the walking dead.

This is pretty bad.
 
I have no way of verifying this image, but it is the one I saw on twitter.

WTF? Call me crazy but this image looks like pure bullshit to me. 750 RADS?!! Over the USA? If that map is accurate, then I GUARANTEE that at least 50 million Americans will be dead in the coming week. I seriously doubt this is the case. In order to spread that much energy over that large an area, the pile would have had to have been stupefyingly large. This strikes me as a very irresponsibly exaggerated prediction. Whoever posted is should have their ass caned until it bleeds. Assholes.

As I recall the LD50 for radiation is somewhere around 300 or 400 rad. 750 would kill just about everyone, as far as I can recall. Make sure you alert anyone you know who has seen this and is presently freaking out or is about to. The situation is bad enough as it is - we don't need to make matters worse.
 
May I take it that you are able to appreciate the gravity of such an event? If it is indeed so that the walls and roof of the containment vessel have been destroyed, it would follow that an enormous amount of very dangerous material is now on the loose.

That is not true. The building that collapsed was an outer concrete containment. There is still the reactor vessel and inner steel containment.

I f you are getting a year's worth per hour, the exposure rate is better than 8,700 times "normal". You are fucked. The people of the surrounding areas are all fucked. Utterly, completely, and sadly so. If you are exposed for 1 day, you have 24 years worth of exposure. If this is indeed the level of contamination, then by now all those people are nothing better than the walking dead.

This is also not true. A year's worth of radiation is about 0.3 rem. The doses you would need to receive within a day to be in danger are greater than 100 rem.

As an example, you get 1-10 rem just from a CT scan.
 
The truly distressing aspect of this is that the failsafe design of the reactor appears to have... well... failed. What is up with that? If a failsafe fails to fail safely, then it is not what it is called.

Chaos thoery is the base of my objections to nuclear energy. And much like socialism, it is too much power to entrust to humans.
 
Osan, I don't remember which thread, but someone said that picture came from 4Chan. So, you'd be right about it.
 
We need some context in here.. Is it serious, yes, but... here is a good explanation. I can also say that from talking with a friend of mine who works for GE nuclear, that the explosion we all saw was from steam. There has been no nuclear explosion or meltdown.

Its still a serious situation though.


http://blogs.scienceforums.net/swansont/archives/8132

I’m not an expert on nuclear reactors. I taught in the nuclear power program of the US Navy some years ago, meaning I was competent to discuss some aspects of reactors, and specifically the type the navy uses. So I’m also not some random guy in the street. With that disclaimer in mind, there are a few items to mention with regard to the reactor issues in Japan following the earthquake.

This is not another Chernobyl. The reactor design is very different, and the circumstances are different. The Chernobyl accident (link for the more technically inclined) involved an operating reactor that went prompt critical as the result of operational errors, deliberate disabling of certain safeguards as part of a test, and design flaws. This caused a steam explosion and chemical fires as the carbon moderator caught fire.

A closer analogy would be Three Mile Island.

There have been reports of an explosion, but it must be stressed that this was not a nuclear explosion. The reactors have been shut down. It’s not so easy to cause a nuclear explosion in the first place (bombs require a level of expertise), and a shutdown reactor does not have the capability of sustaining the fission reaction. This leaves us with steam pressure buildup or hydrogen as the most likely culprits, i.e. it’s thermodynamics or chemistry, not nuclear physics, which explains the explosion.

The reactor is shut down, so what’s the danger? The products of a fission reaction are typically radioactive, and subsequent decays also release energy. Shutting down the reactor reduces the fission rate by many orders of magnitude, so it’s effectively zero in terms of heat output, but the radioactive fission products still release up to 6-7% of the plant’s power output. The actual value depends on the operating history; the fission products with long half-lives take longer to build up to steady-state values. This value will drop fairly quickly as the short-lived isotopes decay, but it’s still significant — a reactor rated at 1000 MW will still be producing tens of MW of decay heat. The reactors in question at Fukushima Daiichi are rated at 460 or 784 MW

So shutting down does not mean it’s Miller Time? Right. You need to run pumps and do something with the energy, which usually means piping water to a cooling tower, which means you need to run pumps, and those require electricity. It seems silly, at first glance, that a reactor would need a source of power to run it, but the turbines are probably designed to run at the high power output of the reactor and not off of decay heat. So you have an external power line (lost in the quake), local generators (apparently also damaged) and battery backup. Redundant systems. However, it seems that the damage was severe, so the primary and first backup systems are still offline, and if cooling was lost (batteries have a finite lifetime), the water in the core can boil away.

That sounds bad. Yes. As long as the core stays covered with water, things should be fine. But uncovered, the temperature can rise and fuel elements can begin to melt. Hydrogen is produced, which can explode, and boiling water becomes steam, which raises the pressure in the containment vessel. The latter is why the containment vessel would be vented. You would need to replace that water into the system, which also requires pumps. (This what had happened at TMI, though in that case, the cooling pumps were shut off deliberately owing to a flawed procedure)

So this is serious. Nothing here is meant to imply otherwise. But the term “meltdown” (or worse, if preceded by “Chernobyl-like”) raises all sorts of imagery, most of which is inaccurate.

Here are some links from what look to be credible sources. This is a dynamic situation, so there is a shelf-life to the details.
Nuclear Crisis in Japan: What We Know
Factbox: What happens when a reactor loses coolant
 
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Breaking news from Kyodo: the cooling system at Tokai, a third nuclear power plant now said to have cooling failures, has stopped according to the fire department. Tokai was Japan's first nuclear power plant. The plant has two reactors: a 1965 built Magnox-type 166MW, and a 1978 built Boiling Water Reactor generating 1100MW. As Wikileaks reports: "This Boiling Water Reactor was the first nuclear reactor built in Japan to produce over 1000 MW of electricity. By some formalities in the paperwork, the unit is technically separate from the rest of the nuclear facilities at Tokai-mura, but it is managed with the rest of them and even shares the same front gate. The power produced at the unit is sold by both the Tokyo Electric Company and the Tohoku Electric Company." SkyNews adds that the cooling has failed at the bigger, BWR reactor.

A quick summary of the reactors:
Unit 1
This reactor was built based on British developed Magnox technology. Unit 1 will be the first nuclear reactor to be decommissioned in Japan. The experience in decommissioning this plant is expected to be of use in the future when more Japanese plants are decommissioned. Below is a brief time-line of the process.

* March 31, 1998: operations cease
* March 2001: last of the nuclear fuel moved off-site
* October 4, 2001: decommissioning plan announced
* December 2001: decommissioning begins, spent fuel pool is cleaned
* 2003: turbine room and electric generator taken down
* Late 2004: fuel moving crane dismantled
* 2011: the reactor itself is dismantled
Unit 2
This Boiling Water Reactor was the first nuclear reactor built in Japan to produce over 1000 MW of electricity. By some formalities in the paperwork, the unit is technically separate from the rest of the nuclear facilities at Tokai-mura, but it is managed with the rest of them and even shares the same front gate. The power produced at the unit is sold by both the Tokyo Electric Company and the Tohoku Electric Company.
 
Location of the Tokai plant, which is just south of the two Fukushima complexes... and only 100 km from Tokyo:
 
We need some context in here.. Is it serious, yes, but... here is a good explanation. I can also say that from talking with a friend of mine who works for GE nuclear, that the explosion we all saw was from steam. There has been no nuclear explosion or meltdown.

Its still a serious situation though. ...

How does a steam explosion cause the flames that are clearly evident in the video of the explosion?

Still a lot of uncertainty on this

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/13/expert-japans-radiation-could-spread-to-u-s/

"One reactor has had half the core exposed already," he explained. "This is the one they're flooding with sea water in a desperate effort to prevent it from a complete meltdown. They lost control of a second reactor next to it, a partial meltdown, and there is actually a third reactor at a related site 20-kilometers away they have also lost control over. We have never had a situation like this before."

"The worst case scenario is that the fuel rods fuse together, the temperatures get so hot that they melt together in a radioactive molten mass that bursts through the containment mechmisms and is exposed to the outside. So they spew radioactivity in the ground, into the air, into the water. Some of the radioactivity could carry in the atmosphere to the West Coast of the United States."
 
How does a steam explosion cause the flames that are clearly evident in the video of the explosion?

The explosion was from hydrogen, not steam. It's produced when the zirconium clad on the fuel rods oxidizes. There was also a hydrogen deflagration at 3 mile island, but that was a PWR with only one containment, so it was stronger and handled the pressure spike.
 
Things are not sounding good. KI was allready distributed as a precaution, but now there is a new warning:

"Stay inside and wear long sleeved clothing and a wet flannel over your face. If you go outside, take off all your clothes and place them in a plastic bag when you come back in, so you don't contaminate your house."

I don't know about you, but that warning screams live breach to me!

-t
 
The explosion was from hydrogen, not steam. It's produced when the zirconium clad on the fuel rods oxidizes. There was also a hydrogen deflagration at 3 mile island, but that was a PWR with only one containment, so it was stronger and handled the pressure spike.

It could have been hydrogen trapped in the containment building. The core is another containment vessel inside of that building from what I understand. Still very serious I would imagine.

Yes, that seems much more probable. I was responding to the post I quoted and section I bolded:

Originally Posted by Mogambo Guru
We need some context in here.. Is it serious, yes, but... here is a good explanation. I can also say that from talking with a friend of mine who works for GE nuclear, that the explosion we all saw was from steam.

I do think this highlights how even alleged experts (underlined above) are adding to the uncertainty.
 
Things are not sounding good. KI was allready distributed as a precaution, but now there is a new warning:

"Stay inside and wear long sleeved clothing and a wet flannel over your face. If you go outside, take off all your clothes and place them in a plastic bag when you come back in, so you don't contaminate your house."

I don't know about you, but that warning screams live breach to me!

-t

As a group, we always tend to be rather skeptical of official announcements, so let's look at what they're DOING instead what they are saying:

First they ordered 6000 people to evacuate a 10km radius, then it became 50,000 from a 20km radius. Now we're hearing that it is up to 200,000 people being told to leave.

The conditions for travel and communication are abysmal - roads are destroyed, no gasoline for vehicles, no food along the way, no shelter at the end of the journey, yet people are being told to go. Just go.

Speaks for itself.
 
Speaking of steam. It is creeping me out seeing pictures of a cloud of what looks like steam over the plant in the updated Google Earth pictures.

From Fark;

This Google page has a tiny KML file that loads into Google Earth. Then on the left menu, under "Places", you can turn new satellite pictures on and off.

http://google-latlong.blogspot.com/2011/03/post-earthquake-images-of-japan.html


Probably just a regular cloud and I think the number one reactor is in the clear on the top. But still.
 
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It went further north west than that.We had land in Cumbria contaminated with caesium.The farmers had to have their sheep tested before sale,if i remember rightly.

My girlfriend is Turkish and she said she remembers it [chernobyl] causing birth defects in a lot of women who lived in cities north of Istanbul.
 
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