I've been trying to get through Atlas Shrugged

Bad idea. Only watch the movies after reading the book. The first movie can't hold a candle to the compelling power of the book.

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The first 100-150 pages of Atlas Shrugged are very slow. However, from pages 150-950, I don't know how you possess the ability to willingly put the book down. Then there's a 200 page speech that slows wayy down again, only for the book to conclude quite nicely.

I didn't even know how long it was. :eek:

If I read any other book that took 150 pages to get started then was good, then again lolled off for 200 pages, I would think it was a piece of crap. I make no exception for Ayn Rand, but then again, I haven't read the book. I think there are probably some people trying to make it sound more interesting than it really is. If I went through that many pages of crap to get to a "quite nice" ending, I fail to see how I could conceive of calling it anything other than crap.
 
Page 400 something. It is getting better. It goes in spurts. I'm fascinated for 30 pages, then bored to tears for 45. So up and down, but I'm glad I'm doing it. The philosophies are pretty fascinating.

I really don't understand the concept that you have to suffer to enjoy yourself. Maybe it's just me.
 
Nay! It is suspense! The carefully crafted, almost unrelenting suspense is the great art of Atlas Shrugged.

To each his own. Some of us still appreciate the fine art of balancing suspense with action. There is a point at which suspense just turns into suspension, or waiting for something to happen. I believe it's the author's responsibility to balance the two.
 
To each his own. Some of us still appreciate the fine art of balancing suspense with action. There is a point at which suspense just turns into suspension, or waiting for something to happen. I believe it's the author's responsibility to balance the two.
Some of us read books before forming strong opinions about them! Zing! :)
 
Some of us read books before forming strong opinions about them! Zing! :)

Fair enough, but I'm just trying to come to grips with the way some people are rationalizing suffering through bad literature to get a point they already have. From what some people are describing, it's like they're forcing themselves to read something that they absolutely disdain.
 
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Some of us read books before forming strong opinions about them! Zing! :)

Great fiction, as Dr Ingermason points out in his books and lectures, evokes an emotional response from the reader. A writer who can't engage the reader this way is either mediocre or purposely bad to make an artistic statement of some sort. I'm not sure which Atlas is. ;) Zing! :)
 
Fair enough, but I'm just trying to come to grips with the way some people are rationalizing suffering through bad literature to get a point they already have. From what some people are describing, it's like they're forcing themselves to read something that they absolutely disdain.

Curiosity killed the cat.

It can be more irksome to be left out of a conversation that a whole bunch of people around you are having.

Reading it can take a torturous month, but being able to say you've read it lasts the rest of your life.

And there are such things as masochists in the human race, too.

You're not going to try to deny anyone the right to do so 'for their own good', are you...?
 
Great fiction, as Dr Ingermason points out in his books and lectures, evokes an emotional response from the reader. A writer who can't engage the reader this way is either mediocre or purposely bad to make an artistic statement of some sort. I'm not sure which Atlas is. ;) Zing! :)

Who are you trying to "zing"? :p

I have read lots of opinions on this thread. And they are all perfectly valid, including yours!, because you read it. Hey, you read it, you didn't like it; what's wrong with that? I'm not going to sit here and say "well, you should have liked it!" any more than you would say to me that I shouldn't have.
 
Curiosity killed the cat.

It can be more irksome to be left out of a conversation that a whole bunch of people around you are having.

Reading it can take a torturous month, but being able to say you've read it lasts the rest of your life.

And there are such things as masochists in the human race, too.

You're not going to try to deny anyone the right to do so 'for their own good', are you...?

Who said anything about rights?
 
Is there a psychologist on the forum?

Maybe we can have a secret section for those who call ourselves libertarian or libertarian leaning people and have overriding guilt from either having never finished or finished but totally disliked Atlas Shrugged for what ever reason. We can learn to feel better about ourselves and be empowered to be libertarian despite not having tortured ourselves needlessly through an endless book of bad writing or was insulted when we realized we could never make a good burger without having been a CEO.

We are all worthy... (Best hippy therapist voice.)
 
Is there a psychologist on the forum?

Maybe we can have a secret section for those who call ourselves libertarian or libertarian leaning people and have overriding guilt from either having never finished or finished but totally disliked Atlas Shrugged for what ever reason. We can learn to feel better about ourselves and be empowered to be libertarian despite not having tortured ourselves needlessly through an endless book of bad writing or was insulted when we realized we could never make a good burger without having been a CEO.

We are all worthy... (Best hippy therapist voice.)
LMAO!! :D
 
Curiosity killed the cat.

It can be more irksome to be left out of a conversation that a whole bunch of people around you are having.

Reading it can take a torturous month, but being able to say you've read it lasts the rest of your life.

And there are such things as masochists in the human race, too.

You're not going to try to deny anyone the right to do so 'for their own good', are you...?

Since I only lack 5 hours of the book, you better believe I am gonna finish it. masochistic is thinking I might glean something by giving the monologue a shot at a later point in time. Mine was definitely a case of curiosity killed the cat. Some folks really seem to love the book and it sounded like my type of storyline. I just failed to connect to the characters. The main character was too frustrating for me to relate to and reminded me of Robinson Crusoe. I have not finished that book yet but intend to by Spring.
 
Great fiction, as Dr Ingermason points out in his books and lectures, evokes an emotional response from the reader. A writer who can't engage the reader this way is either mediocre or purposely bad to make an artistic statement of some sort. I'm not sure which Atlas is. ;) Zing! :)

Meh. The adjudgement of fiction as being "great" on the basis of its evocation of "an emotional response from the reader" is fairly useless. There are simply too many examples of "popular" fiction (with no pretensions to "greatness") that pack an emotional wallop - and, conversely, too many instances of "great" fiction that don't - in order for such overly-simplistic dicta to be usefully true, even as a generalization.

As for Atlas Shrugged: I have read it four or five times, and emotionally, I am still deeply & profoundly moved by at least three things in it - and in order not to "spoil" them for those who haven't read it yet but might, I'll just identify those things as involving (1) Tony "the Wet Nurse," (2) Cheryl Taggart, and (3) the things Hank Rearden had to say to Dagny Taggart after her appearance on Bertram Scudder's radio show.

The fact that others may read AS and be left emotionally unmoved by it just goes to show how utterly subjective a standard of "emotional evocation" really is ...
 
Meh. The adjudgement of fiction as being "great" on the basis of its evocation of "an emotional response from the reader" is fairly useless. There are simply too many examples of "popular" fiction (with no pretensions to "greatness") that pack an emotional wallop - and, conversely, too many instances of "great" fiction that don't - in order for such overly-simplistic dicta to be usefully true, even as a generalization.

As for Atlas Shrugged: I have read it four or five times, and emotionally, I am still deeply & profoundly moved by at least three things in it - and in order not to "spoil" them for those who haven't read it yet but might, I'll just identify those things as involving (1) Tony "the Wet Nurse," (2) Cheryl Taggart, and (3) the things Hank Rearden had to say to Dagny Taggart after her appearance on Bertram Scudder's radio show.

The fact that others may read AS and be left emotionally unmoved by it just goes to show how utterly subjective a standard of "emotional evocation" really is ...
It is subjective, but not useless. That is precisely the reason people read fiction! :) Movies and performance arts are the same way. We don't normally go to the theater hoping for wooden dialogue, shoddy plots, and 2 dimensional characters. That's for the realm of non-fiction. If the audience feels no reason to care about the characters, they will just put the book down.
 
It is subjective, but not useless. That is precisely the reason people read fiction! :)

Gee, I could swear I remember reading fiction for other reasons. Like when I read a John Erlichman novel out of sheer curiosity, and to see if he let anything semi-historical slip. And the things I read because my teacher told us to.

Movies and performance arts are the same way. We don't normally go to the theater hoping for wooden dialogue, shoddy plots, and 2 dimensional characters.

Then how did Steven Segal become a millionaire? And Sylvester Stallone, for that matter? And Raymond Chandler, when you come right down to it...

That's for the realm of non-fiction.

You haven't read some of the outstanding accounts of history that I have read. A plot doesn't have to be a lie to be engaging, and people don't have to be made up out of whole cloth to be very human.

If the audience feels no reason to care about the characters, they will just put the book down.

Unless they think the characters they don't care for are about to get murdered in a most gruesome fashion, of course.
 
It is subjective, but not useless. That is precisely the reason people read fiction!

Bullshit. "Emotional evocativeness" is merely one of many reasons people might read fiction. It is not even close to being a necessary one - let alone the only one. For one example, as a fan of "hard" science fiction, I greatly enjoy stories that exercise "scientific" acumen in elaborate and imaginatively speculative fictional settings - and to hell with characterizations and their "emotional evocativeness!" For another example, fiction may also be enjoyed for the sake of aesthetic appreciation of skillful prose composition, regardless of any "emotional evocativeness" (or lack thereof) of its characterizations or other elements. (Hell, some fiction doesn't even have "characters" ...)

And in any case, none of this has anything to do with what I was talking about. Your original claim - the claim to which I was responding - had nothing to do with "why people read fiction." It had to do with "what is great fiction." I was addressing the attempt to distinguish "great" fiction on the basis of its "emotional evocativeness." That many people may read works of fiction primarily or even exclusively for the sake of their "emotional evocativeness" is irrelevant to the question of whether any of those works are actually "great" or not. What I tried to point out (but which you appear to have ignored) is the salient and incontrovertible fact that "trashy" or "popular" fiction can be quite "emotionally evocative," but is not therefore considered to be "great." And THAT is precisely why "emotional evocativeness" is indeed useless as a standard for judging a work's "greatness" (whatever that might actually mean) or lack thereof. QED.

Movies and performance arts are the same way. We don't normally go to the theater hoping for wooden dialogue, shoddy plots, and 2 dimensional characters.

The ascription of "woodenness" to dialogue, of "shoddiness" to plots, and of "two-dimensionality" to characters is itself often subjective. Besides which, while people may not be hoping for those things, it does not follow that those factors are the only criteria by which such works can be judged and found (un)meritorious. For example, I absolutely love me some H.P. Lovecraft, and he can be found guilty of all the flaws you mentioned at one time or another (sometimes all of them in the same story). I don't adore Lovecraft for his scintillating dialogue or emotionally "deep" characters - he hasn't got any. I adore him for the delightfully and deliciously eldritch weirdness of his stories - the characters be damned! (And in Lovecraft, they usually are ...)

That's for the realm of non-fiction.

:confused: "Wooden dialogue, shoddy plots, and 2 dimensional characters" are "for the realm of non-fiction?" :confused:

That makes no sense whatsoever ...

For one thing, non-fiction does not typically partake of dialogue, plots or characters. Those are generally the accoutrements of fiction.

For another thing, even when they do occur in non-fiction (such as for biography or "true crime" or the like), such "woodenness," "shoddines" and/or "two-dimensionality" ought to be every bit as deleterious as they are alleged to be for fiction. Why should they be less so for non-fiction? That just doesn't make any sense ...

If the audience feels no reason to care about the characters, they will just put the book down.

Again, bullshit. Audiences are NOT homogeneous. As already noted, there are MANY motivations for reading fiction OTHER than "caring about the characters." Of interest in this respect is the essay "The Little Tin God of Characterization" by Isaac Asimov - an incredibly popular and prolific author who was well-known for the shallowness and "two-dimensionality" of his characters (which was deliberate and intentional - emotionally "deep" characterizations would only "get in the way" of the kinds of stories he wanted to tell and his readers wanted to read).

I do not "care about the characters" in Asimov or Rand - yet I do not, as you have predicted I should, "just put the book down". That is NOT why I read them. I read (and greatly enjoy) them for their invigorating and thought-provoking ideas and the larger speculative settings in which those ideas are presented. And if the size of the readership for the works of Asimov and Rand are any indication, a very large chunk of "the audience" agrees with me. These facts pretty much blow a gaping hole in your thesis ...
 
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