Is the Constitution a failed experiment?

[Number19]

...How about we try a new system instead of going back to the old? The Founders didn't go back to Monarchism, did they?

How do you propose that the American people accomplish this and over what time frame?

 

[YumYum]

How do you propose that the American people accomplish this and over what time frame?

By helping this current system to collapse at a much faster rate by getting food stamps and every form of welfare, and by supporting and voting into office the worst trashiest corrupt candidate out there, who will guarantee the speedy destruction of our system. There is no point in fighting this any longer. The sooner it collapses, the sooner we can start doing things the right way. torchbearer has touched on this in the past and he knows his shit.

 

[low preference guy]

By helping this current system to collapse at a much faster rate by getting food stamps and every form of welfare, and by supporting and voting into office the worst trashiest corrupt candidate out there, who will guarantee the speedy destruction of our system. There is no point in fighting this any longer. The sooner it collapses, the sooner we can start doing things the right way. torchbearer has touched on this in the past and he knows his shit.

What you propose will result in the United States becoming a third world country forever. The right approach would be to spend your energy trying to educate people on the ideas of liberty rather than to spend it to make the system collapse.

If the awful set of beliefs most Americans held drove us to this situation... why would they magically change once the whole social/economic system collapses? What will most likely happen is that the United States as a whole will ingloriously become a third world country. And stay like that.

A few states will implement smart policies and become successful, just like most third world countries have nice/successful cities to live in. But there won't be massive improvement in the country as a whole, and you might die in the transition.

 

[YumYum]

What you propose will result in the United States becoming a third world country forever. The right approach would be to spend your energy trying to educate people on the ideas of liberty rather than to spend it to make the system collapse.

The majority of the people don't want to be educated. They want to be entertained.

If the awful set of beliefs most Americans held drove us to this situation... why would they magically change once the whole social/economic system collapses? What will most likely happen is that the United States as a whole will ingloriously become a third world country. And stay like that.

Bill Gates already predicted that we are going to become a third world nation. Nothing can stop it; no amount of "educating the people", electing liberty candidates to office, or not taking welfare can stop the collapse of our country. The current national debt is at $13.5 trillion and will be at $16-18 trillion when Obama leaves in 2012. We are approaching the point where we won't be able to pay the interest on the debt. Collapse is inevitable.

A few states will implement smart policies and become successful, just like most third world countries have nice/successful cities to live in. But there won't be massive improvement in the country as a whole, and you might die in the transition.

Maybe they will, but the states are also up to their neck in debt, and so are the counties and cities. The county I just moved from is $560 million in debt according to the C4L regional coordinator there. Even if Rand wins, Schiff wins and a few others, it will not change the mess we are in. There was hope in 2008 when Ron Paul ran, but now it is too late. So, we should be preparing ourselves for what is coming. The faster this shit collapses, the quicker we can put into gear a Free Society.

 

[low preference guy]

Bill Gates already predicted that we are going to become a third world nation. Nothing can stop it; no amount of "educating the people", electing liberty candidates to officeg. The faster this shit collapses, the quicker we can put into gear a Free Society.

The point to educate is not to avoid the collapse. The collapse is inevitable. The point of educating is that once the system collapses, the right ideas are around so that the new system will resemble something with freedom. Having liberty candidates in power will also make that easier.

If the system collapses right now, with the political ideas that most Americans have, there are zero chances of getting anything relatively free like the Constitution. The U.S. has not experienced socialism like other countries, and they don't know what it's like, so they will try it hard to establish socialism once the whole thing collapses and blame it on capitalism. We will likely have some sort of socialist, communist, or very statist system. The only thing one could do in that situation is flee the country. That's what will happen if we don't at least elect some good people to be in charge so that when the system collapses, they're in a position of power to establish a free market.

The faster this shit collapses, the quicker we can put into gear a Free Society.

Again, to establish a Free Society, liberty ideas must be widespread. Once the system collapses, you won't have any chances of educating people when they're trying to save their asses, and if they have any reaction, it will be blaming capitalism. The only chance to educate them and electing liberty candidates is now. If we don't do that, the only smart thing you can do is start learning a foreign language.

 

[RedStripe]

The Constitution was not a failed experiment, but a great success. It's has successfully developed a system of political economy which has, for over 200 years, defended the interests of the rich, white, landowning class which created it.

 

[YumYum]

The Constitution was not a failed experiment, but a great success. It's has successfully developed a system of political economy which has, for over 200 years, defended the interests of the rich, white, landowning class which created it.

Yeah, that is why I don't understand the statement "I support the Constitution". The Supreme Court doesn't support the Constitution; the Court interprets it, and so do I.

The Constitution is very ambiguous, and that is why the framers gave us the Supreme Court.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

Yep, I think the de-centralized Indians had it much better. And so did the Mexicans, they had one kick-ass constitution. So did South America, they've been rockin' for 200 years! And Haiti is just one hell of a place.

 

[eproxy100]

Yeah, that is why I don't understand the statement "I support the Constitution". The Supreme Court doesn't support the Constitution; the Court interprets it, and so do I.

The Constitution is very ambiguous, and that is why the framers gave us the Supreme Court.

Actually, the supreme court wasn't really intended for interpreting the constitution. At least Thomas Jefferson didn't want it that way.

Jefferson:
"To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions [is] a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy."

And with regards to the constitution as a failed experiment, I think Jefferson saw it coming.

"Every generation needs a new revolution."

BTW, yum, I agree with you that the fastest way to a revolution is to make SHTF sooner by taking all the actions you stated.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

The Constitution was not a failed experiment, but a great success. It's has successfully developed a system of political economy which has, for over 200 years, defended the interests of the rich, white, landowning class which created it.

Excellent point, sir.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

Actually, the supreme court wasn't really intended for interpreting the constitution. At least Thomas Jefferson didn't want it that way.

Jefferson:
"To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions [is] a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy."

And with regards to the constitution as a failed experiment, I think Jefferson saw it coming.

"Every generation needs a new revolution."

BTW, yum, I agree with you that the fastest way to a revolution is to make SHTF sooner by taking all the actions you stated.

James Madison wanted the Bill-of-Rights inserted into the Constitutional text, rather than put at the back as an appendix, so the rights would be utilized by "tribunals of justice", meaning both judges and juries.

No matter where the rights are listed, they should be followed by judges, juries, the congress, the president, and the states if applicable.

Your comment by Jefferson is totally bogus and distorted. Jefferson said the Alien & Sedition Acts were unconstitutional and violated the 1st amendment.

 

[eproxy100]

James Madison wanted the Bill-of-Rights inserted into the Constitutional text, rather than put at the back as an appendix, so the rights would be utilized by "tribunals of justice", meaning both judges and juries.

No matter where the rights are listed, they should be followed by judges, juries, the congress, the president, and the states if applicable.

Your comment by Jefferson is totally bogus and distorted. Jefferson said the Alien & Sedition Acts were unconstitutional and violated the 1st amendment.

I said nothing of the bill of rights. All I said was that Jefferson thought it was a bad idea for the justices to be the ones who decided what the meaning of the laws in the constitution are. Read my statements again.

 

[RedStripe]

What better way to protect the emerging American aristocratic class than to leave the most important questions regarding the new central government to a handful of prominent, unaccountable, rich, white men who were hand-picked for the task by other rich, white, and essentially unaccountable plutocrats.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

I said nothing of the bill of rights. All I said was that Jefferson thought it was a bad idea for the justices to be the ones who decided what the meaning of the laws in the constitution are. Read my statements again.

Madison is much better authority than Jefferson in matters such as these.

 

[crazyfacedjenkins]

What better way to protect the emerging American aristocratic class than to leave the most important questions regarding the new central government to a handful of prominent, unaccountable, rich, white men who were hand-picked for the task by other rich, white, and essentially unaccountable plutocrats.

Exactly. Slave owners who wanted to be free.

 

[eproxy100]

Madison is much better authority than Jefferson in matters such as these.

...

You make as much or even less sense than the neocon zionists here. Clearly you like looking for trouble so I guess I'll be using my ignore list for the first time. Have fun trying to feed your ego.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

...

You make as much or even less sense than the neocon zionists here. Clearly you like looking for trouble so I guess I'll be using my ignore list for the first time. Have fun trying to feed your ego.

Jefferson was not at the Constitutional convention. Nor was he at the ratifying convention. Nor did he co-author the Federalist Papers. Nor is he the Father of the Constitution. And it was Madison who followed the Constitution during the War of 1812, not Jefferson.

To the extent that Jefferson understood the Constitution, it was explained to him by Madison:

Madison Explains the Constitution to Jefferson

With the Constitutional Convention ending on the 17th of September, 1787, James Madison was at liberty to interpret the document to his close friend, Thomas Jefferson, who was in Paris throughout the Convention and critical phase of the ratification process.

http://www.jmu.edu/madison/gpos225-madison2/madexpcontojeff.htm

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Jefferson was not at the Constitutional convention. Nor was he at the ratifying convention. Nor did he co-author the Federalist Papers. Nor is he the Father of the Constitution. And it was Madison who followed the Constitution during the War of 1812, not Jefferson.

To the extent that Jefferson understood the Constitution, it was explained to him by Madison:

Madison Explains the Constitution to Jefferson

With the Constitutional Convention ending on the 17th of September, 1787, James Madison was at liberty to interpret the document to his close friend, Thomas Jefferson, who was in Paris throughout the Convention and critical phase of the ratification process.

http://www.jmu.edu/madison/gpos225-madison2/madexpcontojeff.htm

Perhaps, but Jefferson gave us the declaration of independence-a document of political philosophy that is vastly more important than any written Constitution. (plus a huge collection of correspondence and writings that clarify his opinions)
Written Federal Constitutions were and are a bane of free society.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

Perhaps, but Jefferson gave us the declaration of independence-a document of political philosophy that is vastly more important than any written Constitution. (plus a huge collection of correspondence and writings that clarify his opinions)
Written Federal Constitutions were and are a bane of free society.

Not more important than the Bill-of-Rights, which is vastly more important than the DoI.

 

[RedStripe]

Exactly. Slave owners who wanted to be free.

We see echos of this same sentiment when rich corporate executives claim they just want "capitalism and freedom."