Is Rand our man or not?

[dinosaur]

Of course they don't have a right to do that. No country has a right to exercise aggression. Your euphemisms won't help you here.

Aggression? Whatever. Ok, it is aggression in the sense that a community is asserting its right to protect itself. But they do have the right to that form of aggression.

 

[Feeding the Abscess]

So if I own genetically modified seeds, and Johan's country has a restriction on importing them, then he has no property rights?

Yes, this means he cannot trade his property as he sees fit.

If I own a gun factory, and Boris owns gold; I should be able to sell him arms even if his country has just attacked ours?

Yes, Boris is an individual. He didn't attack the country you live in, the government that presides on the land mass did.

No, I don't buy your argument. I don't buy that notion that there is such a thing as a basic human right to trade.

The basic right of trade flows from the self-ownership principle. If you own an item, you can use it as you see fit. If you cannot do so, your ownership has been infringed upon.

A person can have property rights within their own country, without having the right to sell anything to anyone outside of those borders.

Not if they wish to trade their goods or services to some other place. With the logic displayed here, a person could be barred from trading their possessions outside of their local community, housing development, or even their own property, and they would still somehow retain the rights to their property. This is illogical in the extreme.

Countries have borders because this is an imperfect world. People band together to form defensive groups, because we live in a world of violence. No utopian ideal will change that fact. People who have failed to form defensive groups act in their own interest, have inevitably lost their property to outside invaders. You equate trade outside of borders with property rights, but without borders we don't have the ability to defend property. There is a legitimate role for protectionism, and no such thing as perfect liberty in this imperfect world.

This is gobbledygook and empty platitudes, and not an argument.

 

[dinosaur]

The basic right of trade flows from the self-ownership principle. If you own an item, you can use it as you see fit. If you cannot do so, your ownership has been infringed upon.

No, it doesn't. You can't use that item in a way that infringes on the rights of someone else. In the cases I outlined, the community has a right to self-protection.
Furthermore, you can own an item without being able to use it in any way you want. Ownership and trade do not have the relationship you say that they do. For example: I can own gold, and yet not be able to buy slaves with it.

Not if they wish to trade their goods or services to some other place. With the logic displayed here, a person could be barred from trading their possessions outside of their local community, housing development, or even their own property, and they would still somehow retain the rights to their property. This is illogical in the extreme.

What you are describing here would be unjust. It would be unjust because the community would not be invoking a basic right, light the right of self defense.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Aggression? Whatever. Ok, it is aggression in the sense that a community is asserting its right to protect itself. But they do have the right to that form of aggression.

Communities don't exist, only individuals. My trading with whoever and his dog is not a threat to you.

 

[dinosaur]

Communities don't exist, only individuals. My trading with whoever and his dog is not a threat to you.

Once again, if you own an arms factory and Boris owns gold. It is a threat to me if you sell arms to Boris after he has just launched an aggressive war against me.

And yes, communities do exist.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Once again, if you own an arms factory and Boris owns gold. It is a threat to me if you sell arms to Boris after he has just launched an aggressive war against me.

And yes, communities do exist.

If that person waged a war against you, maybe. His country is another matter. Even still, I wouldn't really call it "aggression" if I sold a weapon to your enemy. It might be asking for trouble, but I have a right to do it.

 

[dinosaur]

If that person waged a war against you, maybe. His country is another matter. Even still, I wouldn't really call it "aggression" if I sold a weapon to your enemy. It might be asking for trouble, but I have a right to do it.

I wasn't accusing the arms dealer of aggression. I was simply saying that a country does have a right to restrict trade in it's own defense. I am also saying that there is no basic human right to trade, the way that there is a basic right to life and property ownership. I reject the link between trade and property ownership that Abscess defined.

 

[Feeding the Abscess]

No, it doesn't. You can't use that item in a way that infringes on the rights of someone else. In the cases I outlined, the community has a right to self-protection.
Furthermore, you can own an item without being able to use it in any way you want. Ownership and trade do not have the relationship you say that they do. For example: I can own gold, and yet not be able to buy slaves with it.

The context of this discussion has been voluntary exchange, not slavery.

What you are describing here would be unjust. It would be unjust because the community would not be invoking a basic right, light the right of self defense.

If the local community was having problems with other communities, and the person wanting to trade would be benefiting the neighboring community (as all trade does), then surely, by your logic, the person wishing to trade could be restricted from doing so. I hope you see why this is silly.

 

[dinosaur]

The context of this discussion has been voluntary exchange, not slavery..

That is not an argument. If I can own gold without having the right to buy slaves. Then trade and property ownership do not have the relationship that you say they do

If the local community was having problems with other communities, and the person wanting to trade would be benefiting the neighboring community (as all trade does), then surely, by your logic, the person wishing to trade could be restricted from doing so. I hope you see why this is silly

Yes, that would be silly. I think it is a good thing that we have laws that prevent that within our borders.

 

[fr33]

No One But Ron Paul

At this point it's a bit cultish to still be saying that. Ron isn't going to run for president again. It's almost certain that he will be telling you to support his son. If "no one but Ron Paul" is still your battle cry while he's supporting Rand, will it be his past or present actions that you're supporting?

 

[Neil Desmond]

Communities don't exist, only individuals.

Wrong. Both communities and individuals exist.

 

[speciallyblend]

no rand will not get my vote and i will no longer be a republican delegate. I will look outside of the failed gop. I will look to support liberty in colorado but i have 0 interest in rands pandering bs.

 

[singe22]

At this point it's a bit cultish to still be saying that. Ron isn't going to run for president again. It's almost certain that he will be telling you to support his son. If "no one but Ron Paul" is still your battle cry while he's supporting Rand, will it be his past or present actions that you're supporting?

You work for Fox news? MSNBC? Now i'm cultish because i'm not whistling to your nominee? Next your going to say my 4 tours of duty in the middle east doesn't qualify me to have a opinion on foreign policy? Ron will never tell anyone to vote with him just because he says so. Past and Present. Ron is still trying to EDUCATE People on the fucked up system. Take the civil rights for example. The African Americans that just kept showing up and sitting at the Caucasian side of the lunch counters. That was a knowledge bomb that eventually spread across the country. AA's didn't wait to hope for a chance to be congressmen and senators to influence policy. They showed the people how ugly and inhuman the system was.

So while you guys get all happy at the scraps the RHINO tent throws at you, on the backside this "liberty" movement is not being shown as a Restore America movement. Its being portrayed as the "they hate the black president people". Keep telling yourselves that you don't need other ethnic groups to make a real change. No this doesn't mean sucking up to us, but Educating about the system works.

I only responded to this post because the OP put this in the RON PAUL section. If you don't want to hear from us don't come to that section telling us how we are a drag on the liberty movement.

 

[singe22]

Singe, it doesn't matter if you have friends who would vote for whomever, if they made it to the General Election. Because if our candidate doesn't win the Republican nomination THEY WON'T MAKE IT TO THE GENERAL..

I'm not holding my nose for Rand. He's a great candidate and he is reaching all kinds of people that wouldn't listen to Ron. If you haven't noticed, Rand has also been trying to reach out to minorities. Did you miss it?

I wish you would be with us, but if you chose not to, well, that is your choice.

I didn't miss Rand trying to reach out to minorities. I just laughed at it because those educated brother's and sister's saw through his political bs. Oh wait because he visits 1 black college he has done this minority reach out to cover him for 4 years now? BS whoever is on his strategy team pulled him in and to focus on appeasing the people who called you irrelevant because you would like to read a bill as a citizen before your law makers vote. Rand's only shot to win the GOP is to bring new people to the tent. That buildup needs to start now not on the campaign trail. But he has no time for that, he is playing politics.

 

[fr33]

You work for Fox news? MSNBC? Now i'm cultish because i'm not whistling to your nominee? Next your going to say my 4 tours of duty in the middle east doesn't qualify me to have a opinion on foreign policy? Ron will never tell anyone to vote with him just because he says so. Past and Present. Ron is still trying to EDUCATE People on the fucked up system. Take the civil rights for example. The African Americans that just kept showing up and sitting at the Caucasian side of the lunch counters. That was a knowledge bomb that eventually spread across the country. AA's didn't wait to hope for a chance to be congressmen and senators to influence policy. They showed the people how ugly and inhuman the system was.

So while you guys get all happy at the scraps the RHINO tent throws at you, on the backside this "liberty" movement is not being shown as a Restore America movement. Its being portrayed as the "they hate the black president people". Keep telling yourselves that you don't need other ethnic groups to make a real change. No this doesn't mean sucking up to us, but Educating about the system works.

I only responded to this post because the OP put this in the RON PAUL section. If you don't want to hear from us don't come to that section telling us how we are a drag on the liberty movement.

Haha yeah man. I'm a millionaire and both Rupert Murdoch and Ted Turner tell me what to say.

 

[LibertyEagle]

I didn't miss Rand trying to reach out to minorities. I just laughed at it because those educated brother's and sister's saw through his political bs. Oh wait because he visits 1 black college he has done this minority reach out to cover him for 4 years now? BS whoever is on his strategy team pulled him in and to focus on appeasing the people who called you irrelevant because you would like to read a bill as a citizen before your law makers vote. Rand's only shot to win the GOP is to bring new people to the tent. That buildup needs to start now not on the campaign trail. But he has no time for that, he is playing politics.

Singe, no offense, but you already stated that the people you talked to were only planning to vote for Ron IF he won the General. So, is it correct to assume that they were Democrats and had no plan to register as Republicans to vote in the Republican primary for Ron? I ask, because I think that happened a lot and fact is, Ron didn't win the Republican nomination, so the General was a moot point.

Rand HAS TO win the Republican nomination or it is all over. So, he HAS TO try to win over a ton of Republicans. Call it politics, like you did, and you're right. But, unfortunately, that is what he has to do. Come on, you know that.

I am more than sure that Rand plans to do much more minority outreach. The election is still a long way off. But, if your friends are as smart as you say they are, they should also be able to see through the politics and know that Rand is the real deal. Maybe not an exact duplicate of his father, but the apple didn't fall far from the tree. Also, since when did Ron do much of any minority outreach? He viewed everyone as an individual. That there should be no special rights for anyone. Liberty for all.

 

[singe22]

Singe, no offense, but you already stated that the people you talked to were only planning to vote for Ron IF he won the General. So, is it correct to assume that they were Democrats and had no plan to register as Republicans to vote in the Republican primary for Ron? I ask, because I think that happened a lot and fact is, Ron didn't win the Republican nomination, so the General was a moot point.

Rand HAS TO win the Republican nomination or it is all over. So, he HAS TO try to win over a ton of Republicans. Call it politics, like you did, and you're right. But, unfortunately, that is what he has to do. Come on, you know that.

I am more than sure that Rand plans to do much more minority outreach. The election is still a long way off. But, if your friends are as smart as you say they are, they should also be able to see through the politics and know that Rand is the real deal. Maybe not an exact duplicate of his father, but the apple didn't fall far from the tree. Also, since when did Ron do much of any minority outreach? He viewed everyone as an individual. That there should be no special rights for anyone. Liberty for all.

Yes the people i dealt with and reach out to are democrats. Look i know people are different. Ron has never said this movement is about him. And i believe that. But that also allowed me to have a stronger backbone to say i will not go along with anyone playing politics in my face. No Ron didn't have to frame his message or speech's around what crowd he spoke to. He spoke one message. He told you for the most part what people didn't want to hear. That our government represents how we the people failed to keep it in check. But he also doesn't go into the exact finger pointing of, Bush did this, Obama did that, Hilary failed to do that.

Nobody is talking about special rights for a certain group, so stop trying goat some bs. Republican party needs diversity. So good luck to Rand on his quest to convert the tent, unless the tent has already converted him.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Yes the people i dealt with and reach out to are democrats. Look i know people are different. Ron has never said this movement is about him. And i believe that. But that also allowed me to have a stronger backbone to say i will not go along with anyone playing politics in my face. No Ron didn't have to frame his message or speech's around what crowd he spoke to. He spoke one message. He told you for the most part what people didn't want to hear. That our government represents how we the people failed to keep it in check. But he also doesn't go into the exact finger pointing of, Bush did this, Obama did that, Hilary failed to do that.

Nobody is talking about special rights for a certain group, so stop trying goat some bs. Republican party needs diversity.

Singe, I wasn't trying to goat you. You are the one who mentioned minority reach out, right? I wasn't the one who did that. You did. Personally, I think the whole "diversity" gamut that the media keeps on talking about was done to divide us. Are we all people, or aren't we? If we are, why do we listen to their BS about "diversity". All Americans should want liberty. Period.

So good luck to Rand on his quest to convert the tent, unless the tent has already converted him.

The tent hasn't converted him and if you'd listen to more than just the soundbytes that the media plays for you, you would know that.

 

[singe22]

Singe, I wasn't trying to goat you. You are the one who mentioned minority reach out, right? I wasn't the one who did that. You did. Personally, I think the whole "diversity" gamut that the media keeps on talking about was done to divide us. Are we all people, or aren't we? If we are, why do we listen to their BS about "diversity". All Americans should want liberty. Period.


The tent hasn't converted him and if you'd listen to more than just the soundbytes that the media plays for you, you would know that.

I don't listen to media sound bytes, so you should quit assuming while your ahead. I didn't need the media to introduce me to diversity. Its not minority out reach like its some government program. Another reason why this movement won't gain the steam it needs of getting diverse. Knowledge bomb the civil rights movement had "Caucasians" who sacrificed also.

Get over yourself. Not one person on this forum can say with 100% what rand is going to do. I could be totally wrong on what i feel is going to happen,but i can live with that and that is my right.

And ways i'm done with this thread. Just don't be shocked when us "die hards" shoot down rand shit in Ron sections.

 

[LibertyEagle]

I don't listen to media sound bytes, so you should quit assuming while your ahead. I didn't need the media to introduce me to diversity. Its not minority out reach like its some government program. Another reason why this movement won't gain the steam it needs of getting diverse. Knowledge bomb the civil rights movement had "Caucasians" who sacrificed also.

Get over yourself. Not one person on this forum can say with 100% what rand is going to do. I could be totally wrong on what i feel is going to happen,but i can live with that and that is my right.

And ways i'm done with this thread. Just don't be shocked when us "die hards" shoot down rand shit in Ron sections.

Why the hostility? Get the chip off your shoulder, dude. You obviously did not listen to what Ron taught, because here you are still pitching "diversity" bullcrap.

I don't give a rat's ass who you vote for; it's your business. But, don't come here and whine as things get worse and worse. Because you had a chance to do something and instead chose to hand-wring when someone didn't kowtow to your special interest group.