Is Credit Card Debt an expansion of the Money Supply?

I ask how can an IOU - something created that is referenced by money be money.

You mean like Gold and Silver Certificates back in the day? Greenbacks when they were issued? State issued currency notes? Those were all debt instruments once upon a time -- IOU's, all of which were nothing but references to real money, which debt instruments were counted by most people as money.

And what, exactly, does "referenced by money" mean to you, anyway? Clumsy syntax, how can a thing be referenced "by" money? I assume you mean "is a reference to money" but you'll have to clarify on that point.

By all means follow the money - whatever you consider to be real. But when you follow the genesis of that money, your theory is self-conflicting. The paper no-longer-debt notes that you now consider money, given their self-reference and irredeemability in anything but more of the same note, were once only debt notes, and they were not self-referencing; they were in fact multiple references issued against the same specie, or what was then considered the only real money. At some point these debt instruments, these IOU's, which were not money themselves when they were issued, but rather "PAYABLE IN LAWFUL MONEY" of that time, became the only thing you now count as "real money". At what point did that come to pass? When did these IOU's become real money? Was it at the point that they became self-referencing? Did later welching by banks and government on all these debts magically transform these IOU's into a new kind of real money? In other words, is that all it takes to create "real money" in your mind - make it self-referencing?
 
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Nonsense, Paul.

You get confused between digital money which is real money, and debt which is what you believe is money

Digital money is not debt - it is not an IOU. It is a bailment - it is your money, only your money and always your money.

But because you hold a crack pot theory of money, you can't even tell the difference between them.

So now "digital money" is "real money"? What happened to paper being the "real money"? :rolleyes:
"Commercial-bank-money" is also digital so that proves my point that both central-bank-money & commercial-bank-money are equally fictional :D

It's debt because it's an obligation of the issuer, an acknowledgement of indebtedness for the goods/services rendered by the receiver

As for "crackpot theories" go, you've created your own "theory" unlike nobody, one which completely bereft of any rational thought, let alone economic basis so good luck swimming in your own imaginary world that bears little resemblance with reality as experienced by others
 
Steven Paul

If your crackpot theory of money was correct, inflation would track M2 - that is, M0+check-able deposits+traveler's checks (M1)+ savings deposits, time deposits less than $100,000 and money market deposit accounts for individuals (M2)

dsg2052_500_350.jpg


The graph shows a massive increase in M2 over M1 - and given your insistence that M2 is "money", should be equally reflected in the inflation rate over the same period.

800px-US_Historical_Inflation.svg.png


But surprise to the crack pots - it doesn't follow a bit.

gr-inflatie-chart-14-2004.jpg


So the first test of your theory falls horribly flat.
 
So now "digital money" is "real money"?

This is a surprise to you?

You are more confused than I thought!

What happened to paper being the "real money"? :rolleyes:

It is.

But since you do not understand the term "bailment", the distinguishment is lost on you.

"Commercial-bank-money" is also digital so that proves my point that both central-bank-money & commercial-bank-money are equally fictional :D

Only to someone who is ignorant of the difference between debt and bailment

It's debt because it's an obligation of the issuer, an acknowledgement of indebtedness for the goods/services rendered by the receiver

It is not a debt - it is a bailment. Look up the terms, Paul.
 
If your crackpot theory of money was correct, inflation would track M2...

You're using your own crackpot theory to falsify a straw man version of what you think is mine. I don't subscribe to an uber-simplistic Quantity Theory of Money versus [price] inflation with no dynamics other than the sheer quantity of M1/M2 alone.

The money supply's effects on the general level of prices are dependent in part on both the quantity and velocity that is actually circulating. Ignore those dynamics at the peril of creating a crackpot theory of your own - or even worse, a crackpot test of a straw man theory.

dsg2052_500_350.jpg


Your chart, the source of which is "THEY WHO ARE IMMUNE FROM AUDITS" and must be taken at their word, supposedly shows what you (as well as some crackpot monetarists) simplistically believe ought to be a direct correlation (real-time, no less!) between M1/M2 and [price] inflation. This in turn is supposed to falsify the static, simplistic Quantity Theory of Money straw man it pretends to refute. But your chart proves nothing, and is sorely lacking. For one, it doesn't tell you a single thing about the lag times involved. Nor do you mention that any might apply. Crackpot strike one. Furthermore, all other dynamics are completely missing.

For as large as the actual M1/M2 supply is now, your assumption does not take into account the velocity of either, which are naturally decreased as a percentage of total size (i.e., simple physics, as galaxies rotate slower than solar systems which rotate slower than planets), and which ignores other factors which have affected both localized and aggregate velocities, which have been abysmally low (in the aggregate) since 2000. Crackpot strike two.

What happens when the supply of both M1 and M2 in the aggregate continue to increase -- even as the velocity, or the frequency in which money changes hands, decreases, despite and regardless of the supply?

And furthermore, did your personal supply increase in the process? Is there an aggregate chart that happens to reflect what's happening to your economy in your little neck of the woods? Not mine. That's not rare.

Your chart shows exponential M2, and yet the post-QE velocities of M1/M2 are nothing but dips. Wherefore, and do you think that dynamic just might have an effect?

dsg2201_330_300.jpg


Crackpot strike three, but let's keep at it. Another dynamic that is missing from your charts and your test, and something not even a simple velocity chart will reflect, are the localized velocity differences within the economy. In other words, WHERE are all those increases or decreases in velocities actually occurring, and why? Not so obvious to those crackpots who tend to think in collectivized aggregate terms (which average and ignore cancelling effects) -- and like to employ terms like "the economy" and "economy-wide", without considering "whose" economy is adversely or beneficially affected.

If I have less (and/or less frequent) access to money, and you are in the same boat (nobody's buying our shit, except as they must, because "they" are also in the same boat), and the aggregate velocity of money is flat, or down for our particular region/market/industry/etc., that does NOT mean that the velocity of money elsewhere has not increased. If one particular subset of the economy is playing a fast game of money catch amongst themselves - the velocity of THEIR money might well increase, which will be reflected in that wonderful aggregate, even as we are personally left out of that mix, and experience instead the equivalent of a deflationary depression (i.e., demand for OUR goods and services, and therefore OUR money supply begins to dry up). So while Folgers and other goods inflates from $6.99 a can to $12.99, we might be stuck with a decidedly more deflationary scenario for our particular goods or services.

As for me, I'm not in a position to raise prices, even though that is PRECISELY what is needed, and must happen in time. But not now, because it will cost me in my industry, where my competitors are already laying off, cutting their own throats and slashing prices. The dynamics for us, for all intents and purposes, are like that of a DEFLATIONARY DEPRESSION. Why? Because that big fat M1/M2 scrilla sitting out their isn't making its way to us with any kind of velocity. Someone else is busy playing with it...

Which brings me to another dynamic you completely ignore, and that is a Fed that lowers interest rates and injects precious "liquidity" (into the banks), but then turns around and pays banks to PARK their funds with them. My banks have very little incentive to lend me money at this point - they're just hovering like vultures, hoping and praying that I'll miss a few mortgage payments.

And what's with this joke of a chart, used as a red herring by so many crackpots?

800px-US_Historical_Inflation.svg.png


This chart is widely circulated by some intellectually dishonest people all over the internet, because they know that the casual observer will think it's actual PRICE INFLATION (calculated from the CPI, no less), rather than the CHANGES IN THE RATE of price inflation. And what's the source of this information? Why, that paragon of accuracy and truth called the CPI! Double deception.

But if you were honestly attacking, why would you leave out this chart, one which happens to take velocity into account: (MV = PQ)

800px-M2andInflation.png


Surprise to the crackpot straw man erectors: it follows nicely. Could it be that it was your test only that failed to be any kind of valid test?

And your little failed test was not a response to my post:

I ask how can an IOU - something created that is referenced by money be money.

You mean like Gold and Silver Certificates back in the day? Greenbacks when they were issued? State issued currency notes? Those were all debt instruments once upon a time -- IOU's, all of which were nothing but references to real money, which debt instruments were counted by most people as money.

And what, exactly, does "referenced by money" mean to you, anyway? Clumsy syntax, how can a thing be referenced "by" money? I assume you mean "is a reference to money" but you'll have to clarify on that point.

By all means follow the money - whatever you consider to be real. But when you follow the genesis of that money, your theory is self-conflicting. The paper no-longer-debt notes that you now consider money, given their self-reference and irredeemability in anything but more of the same note, were once only debt notes, and they were not self-referencing; they were in fact multiple references issued against the same specie, or what was then considered the only real money. At some point these debt instruments, these IOU's, which were not money themselves when they were issued, but rather "PAYABLE IN LAWFUL MONEY" of that time, became the only thing you now count as "real money". At what point did that come to pass? When did these IOU's become real money? Was it at the point that they became self-referencing? Did later welching by banks and government on all these debts magically transform these IOU's into a new kind of real money? In other words, is that all it takes to create "real money" in your mind - make it self-referencing?

What is it, BF? What is the magical defining determinant for money in your mind?
 
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So now "digital money" is "real money"?

This is a surprise to you?

What happened to paper being the "real money"?


This shows you've no clue what you're talking about!

So let's see, earlier you'd said paper-notes are "real money" then you say "digital-money" is "real money"!

Ok, but as has already been pointed out that you can get rid of all the paper-notes & you'll still have "money" so paper-notes aren't really "money" at all :rolleyes:
Further, if you say "digital money" is "money" then "commercial-bank-money" should also be considered "money" but you don't :rolleyes:

You just contradict yourself every step of the way!

You're all tangled up in your elusive definitions, in your deluded worldview that nobody but you ALONE subscribe to :eek:

Again, you're the probably the only person who disagrees with the most rational & logical thing that an increase in "commercial-bank-money" DOES cause inflation, it's just pure logic, one doesn't even have to know a great deal about economics, like another poster pointed out earlier, if goldsmiths issue many more claims than they've gold then inflation is inevitable, same holds true when more claims are issued than the amount of central-bank-money in existence, it's just simple logic

Anyways, I don't see the point of continuing this anymore because not only do you not understand the basic laws of economics as recognized by people with a sound mind but you're also impervious to any reason or logic; you've your own little worldview, completely different from that of people with a fuctioning mind & you seem to believe that everyone else is wrong, & you're the only who's right! :rolleyes:
 
This shows you've no clue what you're talking about!

So let's see, earlier you'd said paper-notes are "real money" then you say "digital-money" is "real money"!

No, I have said FRBN represented by computer digits is real money too.
Because you do not understand the concept of "bailment" is not my fault.
 
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don't subscribe to an uber-simplistic Quantity Theory of Money versus [price] inflation with no dynamics other than the sheer quantity of M1/M2 alone.

Of course you won’t.
You have to make MORE crackpot theories to explain why your first crackpot theory holds no relevance in the real word.
Immutable economic law of supply and demand would show inflation – IF your theory is correct.

There is none (or little).

Instead of reviewing the crackpottery of your theory, you make up ANOTHER crack pot theory to explain it.

The “velocity” of money is was dreamt up by the crackpot emeritus, Iriving Fisher.

I am not surprised you’d take up Fisher as your economic soul mate. This is where you got your crackpot “money is debt” theory and “paying it off creates deflation” – Fisher made it up!

ED: (I mean, this is the guy Bernanke loves! ... and who theory he bases a part of his interventionist actions upon! - that should have been the death-kiss of this theory for you - but you and Bernanke - Fisher classmates!)

But the idiocy of such a theory – that you and I passing the same dollar between us faster makes the economy inflate (or the reverse deflate) is laughable on mere dialogue of the process!

I agree with Mises:
"The main deficiency of the velocity of circulation concept is that it does not start from the actions of individuals but looks at the problem from the angle of the whole economic system. This concept in itself is a vicious mode of approaching the problem of prices and purchasing power. It is assumed that, other things being equal, prices must change in proportion to the changes occurring in the total supply of money available. This is not true."
 
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My references only pertain to 1980 to present so it doesn't matter
The 'pre-1980' inflation reference is a measure...not a reference to a period in time.

The US government changed the inflation rates once in 1980 and again in 1990 to understate the real level inflation so they wouldn't have to pay as much in SS (all detailed at shadowstats.com).

You quote a US inflation graph that uses the status quo measure of inflation. For example, peak inflation from 2000 to 2008 on your graph barely get's above 5% for a brief moment.

Using the original pre-1980 measure of inflation we see (which Ron Paul frequently references):

http://www.shadowstats.com/imgs/sgs-cpi.gif?hl=ad&t=

From 2000 to 2008 we were ALWAYS above 5% annual inflation and in 2008 got close to 13% (we're at 10% now).

Simply put...you understate inflation which skews argument that M2 doesn't correlate to inflation (aside from the fact that you use two different types of graphs to make your comparison).
 
"The main deficiency of the velocity of circulation concept is that it does not start from the actions of individuals but looks at the problem from the angle of the whole economic system. This concept in itself is a vicious mode of approaching the problem of prices and purchasing power. It is assumed that, other things being equal, prices must change in proportion to the changes occurring in the total supply of money available. This is not true."

I agree with Mises, but not the way you seem to agree with him. I actually gave critical thought to what Mises wrote, which is why I agree with him, and have no conflict with what he wrote. Mises said, "It is assumed that, other things being equal, prices must change in proportion to the changes occurring in the total supply of money available." And I agree.

Did you even read that sentence and think it through for yourself, or did you just buy into Mises' authority and agree with his conclusion because it appeared to agree with your premise? Mises used the words, "must" change, "other things being equal" and "total supply of money available" (static supply), none of which are my assumptions.

And btw, stow the whole 'crackpot' thing - it's ad hominem and argument by ridicule. It's as completely meaningless as your appeals to authority (Mises) and attempts to poison the well (Fisher). Whatever anyone says - you, me, Mises, Fisher or anyone else - can be addressed on their own merits.

I'm not a monetarist, as central control over the supply of money entails artificial systemic choices between winners and losers. It distorts the entire market in numerous ways, as the very movement of that controlled supply, and especially the channels and ways it is introduced into the market, are decided mostly by banks, and vary the pressure (up or down, never evenly distributed) that is placed on prices throughout the entire system. Not that prices "must" change, as some believe. And it's not control (price "must" change), as there is no such requirement. Only influence. Pressure. How individuals in the market respond to that pressure will always be different, but it's not the same pressure felt throughout "the whole economic system", and the very process of malinvestment is proof enough of that - regardless of the aggregate effect.

I like and adhere to the Austrian school because it approaches the market from, and deals directly with, individual behavior and choice, whereas other schools attempt to dissect and understand the economy (and controls over it) in the aggregate, using a more physics-based model approach. Wonderful for me, as my primary background happens to be physics, not economics. What I have learned, however, is that mainstream economists (and others in the soft sciences) like very much to mimic physics, as it gives a prestige-borrowing 'scientificish air' about their work. I have read many published papers by economists, only to come away with nothing but astonishment. Like a gibbering, babbling children At Play In The Field of Scientists, most of whom (I conclude) really have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. They aren't talking about economics or physics that I can see. They look like they're shuffling unnecessarily complicated toy blocks around as they speak to each other in a language only they appear to understand. Not that they even agree with each other, or can put their theories to any meaningful tests! As such, this is what most economists look like to me when they speak with each other:



Whatever they were saying, they meant that, baby! They are as certain in their responses as Paul Krugman ever was. It is also no wonder to me that, unlike basic physics, there are so many schools of economic thought, and myriad factional (and contradictory) theories! Since most economists are not actually grounded in physics a lot of what they expound appears to be gibberish, with faulty assumptions, misplaced or meaningless variables, and equally meaningless equations. If you're going to borrow from physics, at least have an understanding of the basic fundamentals.

I understand the relationship, for example, between things like force, mass and acceleration. With a simple Newtonian equation, F=ma, I can understand clearly - without mistaking it for crackpottery or magic - how a 1 kilogram rock can have the exact same force as 1,000 kilogram rock, by simply varying the acceleration of each. Whatever the acceleration of the 1,000 kilogram rock, multiply that by 1,000 for the 1 kilo rock, and it will have same effective force, the same kinetic energy. That's simple Newtonian physics, like leverage - where a 90 lb. weakling can move 10 tons with a well-placed lever. Not magic. Simple Newtonian physics.

The F=ma analogy deals with single blobs with single forces. For the velocity of money in a system, a physics analogy of which deals with the kinetic energy of many units in motion is more fitting - like the relationship between air (MONEY), heat (FIDUCIARY MEDIA), and temperature (VELOCITY).

Take two hot air balloons with the same amount of lift, each having the same quantity of hot air at the same temperature (velocity of molecules). You can remove half the air (MB) from one balloon, and all else being equal the entire balloon system will deflate and lose lift. However, you can add heat, increasing the temperature (average motion, or kinetic energy) to half the molecules extant until they expand to twice their volume. Half the molecules, twice the heat and temperature, expanding to twice their volume (inner velocity), and you'll get back more than your original lift, because the density of the entire system is less than it was.

That's the aggregate, as temperature is nothing but an average measure of motion. In localized reality, individual molecules in the same gaseous system are another story altogether. Some are moving at tremendous velocity while others are standing relatively still.

In my example, I talked about localized velocity (read=frequency variances with which goods and services are exchanged for money within my industry or economy). In individual terms, and accounting for the time value of money, if a particular part of the economy slows down, such that the frequency of demand for my goods or services decreases, fewer orders (per unit of time) is deflationary TO ME. "THE" money supply didn't dry up. "MY" money supply did. It's not that the same orders are not pending - in many cases they are. It's that my customers are waiting, because their frequency of exchange has also slowed. So they aren't getting the same money-per-unit-of-time either. And when that happens to large enough sectors of the economy, it can appear in aggregate as a strong correlation between M2, velocity and inflation (the chart I posted that you ignored, and never addressed except by dismissal).

In other words, you can have all the "otherwise demand" in the world - you have many of the orders, but not the capital to fill them, or your customers are waiting for funds to finally release a purchase order - but if everyone is waiting longer and longer for their own money (e.g., credit is tightened), this will, in the aggregate, have an affect on the value of the currency (up or down - in relation to the units available but NOT exchanged, and all for want of timely money).

That isn't Fisher, nor is it a simplistic, rigid, Quantity Theory, nor is necessarily contradictory to what Mises wrote. It could well be argued that it conflicts with what Hazlitt wrote [LINK] - but that's another discussion altogether. I think Hazlitt split some hairs, as he tied everything into individual expectations and fears. And while I think that's a valid approach with merit, it appears to me as just the mechanism behind the fundamentals.

Henry Hazlitt said:
The value of a unit of money is determined, like the value of a unit of a commodity, primarily by psychological factors, and not merely by mechanical or mathematical factors.

I agree with Hazlitt that all these are factors. I strongly question his premise that psychological factors, not physical fundamentals, are the primary factors...

Henry Hazlitt said:
As with commodities, the value of money is influenced not merely by the present quantity, but by expectations concerning the future quantity as well as the future quality.

And that's precisely why. Because my individual expectations as a merchant don't necessarily change unless my individual fundamentals (actual frequency and magnitude of orders) change. And Hazlitt goes onto write:

Henry Hazlitt said:
At the beginning of an inflation, many prices and wages remain as they are through habit and custom, and also because, even when the increase in the money supply is noticed, it is assumed to be purely a past event that is now over. Confidence in a sort of fixed value of the monetary unit remains high. Of course an increase in the supply of money will probably raise some prices, though the average of prices will not necessarily rise as much as the monetary increase.

See that? "the increase in the money supply is noticed". How is it "noticed" at the individual level? As a merchant, I don't look at "money supply". I look at ORDERS. MY money supply. That's how I notice an increase or decrease - as it relates to me.

Henry Hazlitt said:
In the middle stage of an inflation, prices may respond rather directly to an increase in the supply of money. But as the inflation goes on, or perhaps becomes accelerative, fears begin to spread that the inflation will continue into the future, and that the value of the monetary unit will fall further. These fears for the future are reflected in the present. There is a flight from money and a flight into goods. People fear that prices are going to rise even further, and that the value of the monetary unit is going to fall even further. Their own fears and actions help to produce that very consequence.

And I agree.

Henry Hazlitt said:
Now when such developments are called to the attention of, or noticed by, the adherents of a rigid quantity theory, these adherents have a ready answer. The discrepancy, they say, is accounted for by changes in V, the "velocity of circulation." And they state or assume that these changes in the velocity of circulation are of the exact mathematical extent necessary to account for the discrepancies between the increase in the supply of money and the increase in the price level.

And there's where Hazlitt parts from me, as I am NOT an adherent to "rigid quantity" theory. To me the rigid quantity of money is, as Hazlitt claimed, but one factor among others, such that there is no direct correlation (especially real time) required between the supply of money and inflation. And not that Hazlitt FULLY believes that the quantity of money affects the value of the currency - just not for the reasons Fisher claimed. And on both those counts we fully agree.

It's interesting to note that Hazlitt further states (regarding rigid quantity proponents) "They do not offer any mathematical proof of this. As we shall see, such mathematical proof does not and cannot exist."

And he is correct. What he fails to note is that there can be no mathematical proof for his own assertions (that psychological affects are the primary factor of inflation), and for the same reasons.
 
Simply put...you understate inflation which skews argument that M2 doesn't correlate to inflation (aside from the fact that you use two different types of graphs to make your comparison).

1st, I did not use "two" different types of graphs. I used relative graphs - you are trying to use two different types.

2nd, whether or not I agree with shadowstats .... and I have equally no reason to agree or disagree ... the point remains the same - a lack of correlation.
 
Mises said, "It is assumed that, other things being equal, prices must change in proportion to the changes occurring in the total supply of money available." And I agree.

Did you even read that sentence and think it through for yourself, or did you just buy into Mises' authority and agree with his conclusion because it appeared to agree with your premise? Mises used the words, "must" change, "other things being equal" and "total supply of money available" (static supply), none of which are my assumptions.

Where have you been?

Do you think I buy into any authority dictates merely because "he said so?" - that's been your game, sir, not mine. You have repeatedly raised the fallacy of argument by authority, and not me.

I said I agree with Mises - I did not say to you "see you're an idiot if you disagree with Mises" ... as you have done with other references of yours.

So "buck up, sir" and stop playing that stupid game.

He is right, because he unequivocally relies on the laws of economics - supply and demand. Thus, as he states - all things being equal an increase in the supply of money will change the price - so says the law of supply and demand - which I have been harping on since page 1 or so of this blog.


PS: Crackpot is not an ad homenien - it is a state of adherence to a theory that is not supported by realty. I did not say you were stupid, nor did I even say it was your theory. I did say that you merely parrot Fisher's utterly bizarre theory as if it held something meaningful.
 
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Won't even quote you, as there was not a single accurate or correct thing that you wrote, and you didn't really argue against or address the merits of a thing I wrote.

And for the third time, I'm asking in earnest:


I ask how can an IOU - something created that is referenced by money be money.

You mean like Gold and Silver Certificates back in the day? Greenbacks when they were issued? State issued currency notes? Those were all debt instruments once upon a time -- IOU's, all of which were nothing but references to real money, which debt instruments were counted by most people as money.

And what, exactly, does "referenced by money" mean to you, anyway? Clumsy syntax, how can a thing be referenced "by" money? I assume you mean "is a reference to money" but you'll have to clarify on that point.

By all means follow the money - whatever you consider it to be. When you follow the genesis of that money your theory becomes self-conflicting. The paper no-longer-debt notes, which you now consider money, given their self-reference and irredeemability in anything but more of the same notes, were at one time only debt notes. They were not self-referencing when they were originally issued. They were in fact multiple references issued against the same specie, as in, "PAYABLE IN LAWFUL MONEY" (of that time), and not money themselves.

At what point did these IOU's become the only thing you now count as "real money"? Was it at the moment they became self-referencing? Did later welching by banks and government on all these debts magically transform these IOU's into a new kind of real money? Is that all it takes to create "real money" in your mind - just remove its underpinning claims and make it self-referencing?

What, in your mind, is the magical defining determinant for money? Because whatever it is, M2 is now the new IOU, which you don't count as real money. It is nothing but multiple claims on the same M0 (the newer, lighter, far more abstract functional equivalent to gold and silver coin). But why does M2 need to be backed by anything? If we went paperless and coinless, and the Fed pulled the M0 rug underpinnings out from under everyone, M2 could become fully self-referencing. Would you then defend M2 as the only real money - the way you now defend M0 that was enthroned in exactly the same way? And if so then, why not now?

If a dream is a solid substitute for tangible reality, why wouldn't a dream within a dream be just as solid?
 
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Won't even quote you, as there was not a single accurate or correct thing that you wrote, and you didn't really argue against or address the merits of a thing I wrote.

Nonsense.

I do not have time to write a book for you - however, I am still correct in what I said.

And for the third time, I'm asking in earnest:

You mean like Gold and Silver Certificates back in the day?

The gold certificate was used from 1882 to 1933 in the United States as a form of paper currency. Each certificate gave its holder title to its corresponding amount of gold coin. Therefore, this type of paper currency was intended to represent actual gold coinage. In 1933 the practice of redeeming these notes for gold coins was ended by the U.S. government and until 1964 it was actually illegal to possess these notes.

...which is utterly nothing like the FRBN.

The Gold certificates represented gold.
Gold represented itself.

FRBN does not represent anything but itself, just like gold.

Those were all debt instruments once upon a time -- IOU's, all of which were nothing but references to real money, which debt instruments were counted by most people as money.

Gold was never an IOU.
FRBN are never an IOU.
 
Gold was never an IOU.
FRBN are never an IOU.

I never said gold was an IOU, where did that nonsense come from? Gold was money, not an IOU.

The notes that represented gold and silver, including FRN's, were certainly IOU's.

However, so were FRBN's, once upon a different time.

10-29-fo.gif

Series 1929 FRBN - REDEEMABLE IN LAWFUL MONEY

2-14-fo.gif

Series 1914 FRBN - WILL PAY TO THE BEARER ON DEMAND

Those aren't FRN's. As far as I can tell, those are FRBN - which at one time represented what was then LAWFUL MONEY. In other words, IOU-THE-BEARER.

There is a genesis to that. While gold and silver coin certainly were lawful money, FRBN, while not redeemable now, not circulated now, and not IOU's now, were not considered money back in the day, once upon a very different time, any more than you consider anything but M0 money now. At some point this changed. What was that point, and what was the defining characteristic that made it "money" in your mind, and not just a reference to money? Was it the removal of the requirement that it be paid in the specie it denominated and represented? Was it when it became self-referencing? What?

What am I missing?
 
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I never said gold was an IOU, where did that nonsense come from? Gold was money, not an IOU.

The notes that represented gold and silver, including FRN's, were certainly IOU's.

Try to stay on topic, Steve.

FRBN are not IOU's and are money and are redeemable for more of itself.
Take a $10 to the bank, and they will redeem it with 2x $5.
 
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