Intellectual Property rights

To a mindless fool who does not understand the nature of those 0's and 1's and the amount of sheer intellectual effort to develop the chips, circuits and machine code to man code substrate, translation of data to the graphics world for display and the numerous clockwork driven parts, timers, syncronisers and others that make up the complexity of the computer that the OS lays over top of to allow human access it may just be ones and zeroes. But not to someone who understand the nature of computers in their current state.

I'll tell you what.. There are only 8 notes per octave in any given key in western music, outside of the pentatonic and blues scales. Why don't you just take those 8 notes and write us up one of yer famous Mozart sounding musical compositions anbd post it here about an hour from now.. After all, all you anti-IP folks are so effing talented that our jaws will drop with sheer unadulterated envy at the gifts of talent your knowledge of such things bestows. After all, if you know about a scale and Mozart then it is no sweat to recreate that style, just like rearranging 0's and 1's creates an OS.

Let's up the ante on your stupid gambit..What is even cooler is that there are about 90 elements we can get a grip on or bottle up. Nearly everything in the Universe is made from those elements. Since that is so nobody should pay for anything as it is obvious those who have manipulated those elements into unique products aren't all that unique and do not deserve the fruits of that product. It is made of the same stuff everything is and like everything it should be free.

Frakkin' dimwitted philosophical stance this anti-IP marxism is.

Rev9

I'm on your side, that said...

Just to keep things factually correct, there are 12 notes per octave in the Western music scale...the pentatonic scale is a certain "pattern" of steps within it. Jimmy Page is the pentatonic master.

Edit: I think I get what you mean...there are eight "whole" notes per octave...my B.
 
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Let me guess. Yer a teenager or trustafarian. You do not understand how the real world works. What you say would not occur. The inventor would starve and resort to whatever work he could to eat and pay for lodgings. The stealer of his ideas would get wealthy in the meantime and wait for the next hapless inventor he could copy and get to market in quantity prior and kill that entrepreneur as well. This would lead to monopolies of all kinds.

Rev9

Rev9

Actually no, but you must not know how business actually works. The stealer could get rich, but he is offering what the market wants. More of the product at a cheaper price. Why should we save "hapless" inventors from their poor decision making. If they have a great idea, they can capitalize on it. If they are not able to continually come up with good ideas, they are not good inventors. An inventor's job is to continually come up with new ideas and if they can not do that they should not be inventors.
 
When the von Mises Institute started offering ALL the books whose authors would allow it in PDF format, FOR FREE, their sales of dead tree versions increased dramatically.

Then there's the example of the fashion industry to consider:



Then there's this guy (and MANY others like him) who gives his books away:

http://craphound.com/littlebrother/about/#freedownload

Why would someone put forth the effort to produce a book, CD or whatever?

There's a decent amount of evidence to indicate that without IP they may actually be able to make MORE from the effort than they do with IP.

Even if that's not the case, they can still make more than enough to make it worth the effort.

In my own case, I've been a musician for my entire adult life, sometimes professionally, sometimes not. I STILL play, create music, and even share it with people who may be interested, even though I don't get paid for it anymore. Plenty of others would do the same.

While there's nothing at all wrong with wanting to profit from your efforts, that's CERTAINLY not the ONLY motivation to create.

Then there is http://www.hafpasthuman.com who makes his webbot reports available via pdf download. When noone gets a copy and tosses it onto bittorrent he makes enough to pay for the next round of data acquisition. This year his long ongoing operation was nearly shut down due to copying his pdf into free distribution channels disrespecting the licensing. Yer system fails in many real world cases. I do not care one fling for the Mises Institute as it has produced many of the stark raving lunatic minds on this thread who adhere to their anti-IP stuff like it is gospel nazi propaganda for the party or some combo of crap similar in effect..

Rev9
 
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Let me guess. Yer a teenager or trustafarian. You do not understand how the real world works. What you say would not occur. The inventor would starve and resort to whatever work he could to eat and pay for lodgings. The stealer of his ideas would get wealthy in the meantime and wait for the next hapless inventor he could copy and get to market in quantity prior and kill that entrepreneur as well. This would lead to monopolies of all kinds.

Rev9

Rev9

YES. Without the name-calling, though.

Patenting is meant to prevent monopolies. Otherwise, whoever has the manufacturing capacity and no creativity whatsoever gets all the wealth, while the upstart inventor gets to live in a cardboard box under a bridge.

Of course, we're supposed to believe that his ideas were not his own, and he should never have shared them with anyone if he really wanted them to be protected. Yet, his inventions will make the world a better place, so we don't really want him to keep his ideas to himself—oh but wait! When he shares them, we dogpile on him and strip him of everything. And he's also an altruist, which means he never wants to see any profit for his inventions and simply slaves away for the love of mankind, which we conveniently assume just so we can rationalize that our actions cannot be called theft.
 
Exactly. The only people who get pissed off about [IP] monopolies are the ones who can't create a competing product. They just want to copy someone else's ideas and make a fortune for themselves while spitting on the original creators.

[and yet, those who support intellectual property are the ones with an 'entitlement' complex :rolleyes:]
:rolleyes: Nonsense. Copying and imitating have been around since creative work began. Sometimes the copier can produce the product better and cheaper, perhaps distribute it better, etc. More accurately, the only ones who get pissed off about IP infringement are people who just want to sit around collecting royalty checks instead of actually working and creating. ;) Ever since the beginning of creative work, it has been considered legitimate to copy others' work-it used to be considered flattery.
 
I do not do live gigs anymore. The stress of setting up and tearing down and travel is not my cup of tea. Studio musicians able to keep the fruits of their labor could perform and record and make a living crafting music for the interested listener without playing live. There is alot of cost in playing live, both timewise, fuel-wise and euipment-wise.

Your view of this genre of artistry is immature in the extreme.

Rev9

People aren't stupid. If they know you do this for a living and that you rely on cd or digital sales and they actually like you, they will pay for your stuff. If someone sings it better than you, they should be able to use that competitive advantage.
 
I'm on your side, that said...

Just to keep things factually correct, there are 12 notes per octave in the Western music scale...the pentatonic scale is a certain "pattern" of steps within it. Jimmy Page is the pentatonic master.

Edit: I think I get what you mean...there are eight "whole" notes per octave...my B.

I was speaking of being in key.

Best
Rev9
 
I find it hilarious that the ardent supporters of IP are continually labeling those of us who disagree as Marxists, yet with all their constant referrences to the time, energy, effort, and talent that goes into their product, they sure seem to be relying heavily on the labor theory of value.

For any who may not be aware of the fact, the labor theory of value serves as the very foundation of Marxism.

Carry on.
 
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:rolleyes:More accurately, the only ones who get pissed off about IP infringement are people who just want to sit around collecting royalty checks instead of actually working and creating. ;) .

Oh come on, that makes no sense. They wouldn't be collecting royalty checks if they hadn't "worked and created" something in the first place. You're just trying to make it look like the crook who waits in the shadows to mug an inventor is the guy with awesome talents and up-standing work ethic, lol.
 
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:rolleyes: Nonsense. Copying and imitating have been around since creative work began. Sometimes the copier can produce the product better and cheaper, perhaps distribute it better, etc. More accurately, the only ones who get pissed off about IP infringement are people who just want to sit around collecting royalty checks instead of actually working and creating. ;) Ever since the beginning of creative work, it has been considered legitimate to copy others' work-it used to be considered flattery.

With your system there is no royalty cheque nor often even a first payment because the minute a version hits the market the unscrupulous will reproduce it and distribute it for free or for their profit. You kill the artist in favor of the consumer, who would have naught to consume were it not for said artist. All of these styles of anti-IP arguments are morally bereft.

Rev9
 
Actually no, but you must not know how business actually works. The stealer could get rich, but he is offering what the market wants. More of the product at a cheaper price. Why should we save "hapless" inventors from their poor decision making. If they have a great idea, they can capitalize on it. If they are not able to continually come up with good ideas, they are not good inventors. An inventor's job is to continually come up with new ideas and if they can not do that they should not be inventors.
you treat the "market" as if it is separate from any law. But to do so you must abolish all existence of the notion of "fraud". Like I said before there are those who are anarchists,and those who are not anarchists.
 
YES. Without the name-calling, though.

Patenting is meant to prevent monopolies. Otherwise, whoever has the manufacturing capacity and no creativity whatsoever gets all the wealth, while the upstart inventor gets to live in a cardboard box under a bridge.

Of course, we're supposed to believe that his ideas were not his own, and he should never have shared them with anyone if he really wanted them to be protected. Yet, his inventions will make the world a better place, so we don't really want him to keep his ideas to himself—oh but wait! When he shares them, we dogpile on him and strip him of everything. And he's also an altruist, which means he never wants to see any profit for his inventions and simply slaves away for the love of mankind, which we conveniently assume just so we can rationalize that our actions cannot be called theft.


Patenting creates monopolies. Y'all fail to see that if there are no inventors, the people who have that production and distribution advantage will not be able to produce and distribute. They need inventors to exist, thus they will make it so there is money to be made for the inventors. The inventors will not make as much per product, but they can create more products, thus more money overall. If I make product A, but another company comes in and produces it and distributes it better than me, I now create product B, which is even better. If patents are in place, the technological gain would not exist.
 
I find it hilarious that the ardent supporters of IP are continually labeling those of us who disagree as Marxists, yet with all their constant referrences to the time, energy, effort, and talent that goes into their product, they sure seem to be relying heavily on the labor theory of value.

For any who may not be aware of the fact, the labor theory of value serves as the very foundation of Marxism.

Carry on.

That was a load of disingenuous hogwash and prevaricating deflection.

Next.

Rev9
 
With your system there is no royalty cheque nor often even a first payment because the minute a version hits the market the unscrupulous will reproduce it and distribute it for free or for their profit. You kill the artist in favor of the consumer, who would have naught to consume were it not for said artist. All of these styles of anti-IP arguments are morally bereft.

Rev9
Exactly. Killing the artist and not the consumer seems to be the ongoing bias in the anti-IP side of debate. I actually believe in a balance of property rights.
 
Blah, blah, blah

Rev9

Since you responded to my post within just a few minutes of my posting it, it's obvious that you didn't even bother to look over the evidence presented before attempting to "rebut" it.

You clearly have no intention of giving re4asonable consideration to any evidence that doesn't comport with your own pre-concieved ideas.

Therefore, attempting further discussion with you is obviously a waste of my own quite valuable time and other resources.
 
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If people are sovereign beings, then without contradiction I must assert that sovereign beings must make contractual agreements in concordance of each others sovereignty which includes the product of a sovereign being to another sovereign being. I do not disbelieve in contractual agreements,to do so is to believe there is no sovereign being in the first place.
 
You don't understand how awesome I am at what I do, therefore my work is worth something, therefore I should have control of other people's property to make sure it's not like my awesome work so that only I can sell property in a similar arrangement.

^
Captain's argument in a nutshell.
 
Exactly. Killing the artist and not the consumer seems to be the ongoing bias in the anti-IP side of debate. I actually believe in a balance of property rights.

Killing the artist/consumer? :rolleyes: Nonsense. Artists weren't dying for lack of IP laws before they existed. There will always be a market for music as long as humans can hear it. Artists who work for a living instead of sitting around collecting royalty checks will never starve. Improvisers have always had to do this. Ending the state-granted IP privilege would force all artists to do what Indie artists do-work their asses off like people in every other profession.
 
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