In God We Trust: Are "Acts of God" from God?

[erowe1]

God's perfect responses to the expression of creation's imperfect acts are frequently miscontrued as the "will" of God. Translation plays in a role in this frequent misinterpretation of scripture.

Could you please say more about how translation plays a role in this? I'm familiar enough with the biblical languages that I would probably be able to follow along if you were to explain what verses you're talking about and how they might be rightly or wrongly translated.

 

[tpreitzel]

So was Noah (Gen 6:8).

Noah or the world .... God's sacrifice of Himself as Jesus in perfect response to humanity's sin (misuse of free agency) at large was yet to come. Again, we're, i.e. ALL humanity not just the righteous, currently living in a period of grace.

 

[tpreitzel]

Anyhow, I'm being booted off this WiFi network so more later as necessary...

 

[Sola_Fide]

Again, I don't think you can distinguish causing and allowing here so easily. It was God's plan for Adam to eat that fruit. God saw fit to put Adam in a situation where he was certain to fail the test God gave him. God not only knew what Adam would do in that situation, but also what every other conceivable "Adam" would have done in every other conceivable situation, and he choose to create his creation such that it would be that Adam in that situation. I don't see any way around saying that it was all predestined.

This is so vitally important to understand^^^.

God's omniscience logically leads to His omnipotence. Consequently, this is why the open-theists go so far as to deny God's omniscience. They know the one leads to the other logically.

 

[erowe1]

Noah or the world .... God's sacrifice of Himself as Jesus in perfect response to humanity's sin (misuse of free agency) at large was yet to come. Again, we're, i.e. ALL humanity not just the righteous, currently living in a period of grace.

It has always throughout all time been the case that God gave his grace in some ways universally to all, like making the sun to rise on both the evil and the good and the rain to fall on both the just and the unjust (Mat 5:45). And it has always been the case, both before Christ came and today, that some people like Noah were recipients of special acts of grace from God that led them to have faith in him while others he hardened (Rom 9:14-24).

 

[TER]

Erowe, answer me this with a yes or a no:

If you have a murderous thought against your neighbor, or an adulterous thought of someone who is not your wife, or an incestious thought of your child, is God the cause of these thoughts and has He willed you to think these things?

If your answer is no, than your argument for predestination falls flat. If you answer yes, than you worship a different God than the One revealed by Christ and witnessesd to for 2000 years and instead worship a God invented 1500 years after Christ's death on a cross. THIS is how serious the Calvinistic misunderstanding of predestination is and you would do good to abandon it, just as thankfully most of the Christian world already does and has done so from the very beginning.

 

[tpreitzel]

It has always throughout all time been the case that God gave his grace in some ways universally to all, like making the sun to rise on both the evil and the good and the rain to fall on both the just and the unjust (Mat 5:45). And it has always been the case, both before Christ came and today, that some people like Noah were recipients of special acts of grace from God that led them to have faith in him while others he hardened (Rom 9:14-24).

I'm back home, but I'm NOT spending my whole evening on this subject !

If so, why did God offer Himself as a sacrifice? Was it just for masochistic fun? I don't think so as your view certainly isn't scriptural! Regardless of random acts of grace based on "righteous" acts, we're currently living in a period of grace for both the righteous and unrighteous without any qualification WHATSOEVER

 

[tpreitzel]

THIS is how serious the Calvinistic misunderstanding of predestination is and you would do good to abandon it, just as thankfully most of the Christian world already does and has done so from the very beginning.

Agreed and it's clearly a wrong interpretation of scripture. Parts of scripture must be inferred spiritually as well as quoted verbatim which is why God mentions the verse about Lucifer being able to quote scripture. Without spiritual inference, scripture frequently assumes a chaotic and haphazard interpretation.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Erowe, answer me this with a yes or a no:

If you have a murderous thought against your neighbor, or an adulterous thought of someone who is not your wife, or an incestious thought of your child, is God the cause of these thoughts and has He willed you to think these things?

If your answer is no, than your argument for predestination falls flat. If you answer yes, than you worship a different God than the One revealed by Christ and witnessesd to for 2000 years and instead worship a God invented 1500 years after Christ's death on a cross. THIS is how serious the Calvinistic misunderstanding of predestination is and you would do good to abandon it, just as thankfully most of the Christian world already does and has done so from the very beginning.

Hmmm. I think the more pertinent question is: What is the cause of the thoughts and why can God not stop the thing that causes those thoughts?

Supposing God is good and doesn't want you to have those thoughts, why can He not stop those thoughts? Who is soveriegn over God's power?

So it seems to me that anyone who would deny God's omnipotence has a much bigger problem of "what kind of God they worship". It is certainly not the God of Scripture who causes men to believe a delusion, hardens hearts, and closes the eyes of those who "see". Scripture says that the Lord does these things...He even makes some pots for noble use and some for common use.

There is an emotional response that a man has to the doctrine of omnipotence because man is proud and wants to be autonomous. But there is no logical argument against it. It is perfectly logical. Also, it is Scriptural.

God has a good reason for the evil He plans or allows.

 

[erowe1]

I'm back home, but I'm NOT spending my whole evening on this subject !

If so, why did God offer Himself as a sacrifice? Was it just for masochistic fun? I don't think so as your view certainly isn't scriptural! Regardless of random acts of grace based on "righteous" acts, we're currently living in a period of grace for both the righteous and unrighteous without any qualification WHATSOEVER

I don't think that was masochistic. I think it was to glorify himself (Eph 1:6).

I'm not sure what your last sentence means. But if you mean to dispute what I quoted from Romans 9, then your argument is not with me.

 

[TER]

Hmmm. I think the more pertinent question is: What is the cause of the thoughts and why can God not stop the thing that causes those thoughts?

Supposing God is good and doesn't want you to have those thoughts, why can He not stop those thoughts? Who is soveriegn over God's power?

So it seems to me that anyone who would deny God's omnipotence has a much bigger problem of "what kind of God they worship". It is certainly not the God of Scripture who causes men to believe a delusion, hardens hearts, and closes the eyes of those who "see". Scripture says that the Lord does these things...He even makes some pots for noble use and some for common use.

There is an emotional response that a man has to the doctrine of omnipotence because man is proud and wants to be autonomous. But there is no logical argument against it. It is perfectly logical. Also, it is Scriptural.

God has a good reason for the evil He plans or allows.

You didn't answer the question.

 

[erowe1]

Erowe, answer me this with a yes or a no:

If you have a murderous thought against your neighbor, or an adulterous thought of someone who is not your wife, or an incestious thought of your child, is God the cause of these thoughts and has He willed you to think these things?

If your answer is no, than your argument for predestination falls flat. If you answer yes, than you worship a different God than the One revealed by Christ and witnessesd to for 2000 years and instead worship a God invented 1500 years after Christ's death on a cross. THIS is how serious the Calvinistic misunderstanding of predestination is and you would do good to abandon it, just as thankfully most of the Christian world already does and has done so from the very beginning.

1) Please don't apply the label "Calvinistic" to the doctrine of predestination in such a way as to imply that it was some novel idea Calvin came up with. It had a long history among various theologians before him, and it has never been anathematized by the Catholic church. On the other hand, the Synod of Orange repeatedly affirms that even the most basic willing of a person to turn to God can only ever happen as a result of a work that God, and God alone, must first do in the person, and not anything in that person's "free will." When those canons do speak of something they call "free will," they refer to something that is only present in those whom God has already saved. More importantly, it's biblical (Acts 4:27-28; Rom 8:29-30; Eph 1:5, 11).

2) I can't answer you without distinguishing different aspects of God's will. My sinful thoughts are directly contrary to God's prescribed will (what he prescribes we ought to do). But everything that ever has or ever will happen, including my sinful thoughts, is according to God's decreed will (what he decreed in eternity past would happen). So in the former sense of God's will, the answer to your question is no. And in the latter sense of God's will, the answer is yes. The Bible is rife with examples of things that were against God's prescribed will but still according to his decreed will, many of which I've already shared, and many more could be added.

 

[TER]

Hmmm. I think the more pertinent question is: What is the cause of the thoughts and why can God not stop the thing that causes those thoughts?

The cause of these thought our from satan and from our own fallen minds. Christ told the Jewish authorities that it was from the devil that they had evil thoughts. I don't know how much clearer He could be. God in His omnipotence can stop the causes of those thoughts, He could destroy evil once and for all! (and He will on the Day of Judgment), but He requires our participation, otherwise, what is the reason for judgment in the first place?

Supposing God is good and doesn't want you to have those thoughts, why can He not stop those thoughts? Who is soveriegn over God's power?

Again He can stop them, but if He did, then He would take away of freedom and our will. God made us His children, made in His image. It is our charge to become unto His likeness, which is goodness and love.

If anything, this doesn't show a weakness of God, but rather shows His divne love for us and sacrifice for us, which finds its fullness in revelation to Him on the cross. God is not threatened by us having free will. In fact, it is the only way we could ever truly love Him.

 

[erowe1]

The cause of these thought our from satan and from our own fallen minds. Christ told the Jewish authorities that it was from the devil that they had evil thoughts. I don't know how much clearer He could be.

I don't think there's any disputing that Satan and our own sinful minds cause sin. The dispute we're having is about whether or not God is sovereign over Satan and our minds. The Bible says he is.

 

[TER]

1) Please don't apply the label "Calvinistic" to the doctrine of predestination in such a way as to imply that it was some novel idea Calvin came up with. It had a long history among various theologians before him, and it has never been anathematized by the Catholic church.

Please name one theologian or saint prior to the Reformation who believed that evil thoughts come from God.

On the other hand, the Synod of Orange repeatedly affirms that even the most basic willing of a person to turn to God can only ever happen as a result of a work God, and God alone, must first do in the person, and not anything in that person's "free will." When those canons do speak of something they call "free will," they refer to something that is only present in those who have already turned to God by his grace, and not in anyone whom God has not yet saved. More importantly, it's biblical (Acts 4:27-28; Rom 8:29-30; Eph 1:5, 11).

Your interpretation of the Scriptures is lacking my brother and is based on the ideas of Calvin. The grace of God is involved in us coming to Him ('no one can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit'), but it is the LACK of the grace of God when we ascribe to Him evil.

No one is saying God does not have foreknowledge or the ability to make people do anything He wishes. But He is not responsible nor the cause for the evil in our minds or in our hearts. This is blasphemy, pure and simple.

2) I can't answer you without distinguishing different aspects of God's will. My sinful thoughts are directly contrary to God's prescribed will (what he prescribes we ought to do). But everything that ever has or ever will happen, including my sinful thoughts, is according to God's decreed will (what he decreed in eternity past would happen).

Incorrect. Just because God knows what will happen does not mean He is responsible for it. You are the one putting limits to God.

So I guess neither can you answer my question.

 

[Sola_Fide]

TER,

I understand the semi-pelagian perspective you are coming from, but it is not logical or Scriptural. Scripture is filled with examples of God using the evil of men to fulfill His perfect will.

Also, it is perfectly true that the Pharisees' evil thoughts came from their father, the devil. But in the perfect plan of God, He used their evil thoughts to accomplish His purposes at Calvary.

There is no greater proof for predestination than Calvary! Jesus was the Lamb that was slain "before the foundation of the world"!

 

[TER]

I don't think there's any disputing that Satan and our own sinful minds cause sin. The dispute we're having is about whether or not God is sovereign over Satan and our minds. The Bible says he is.

You are stating the God's omnipotence is in question because He CHOOSES not to be a unjust despot who controls our minds and thoughts every second of the day. If anything, it doesn't show Him to be weak, but Almighty and full of Love to even allow us have the greatest gift He could give us, which is free will.

My brother, your misunderstanding of free will in effect belittles the greatest gift He could give to us.

 

[TER]

I have to go to work, so I must leave this discussion for now. Thank you two for the interesting debate. If I get a chance later, I will try to post more. Until then, glorify the Risen Christ!

 

[erowe1]

Please name one theologian or saint prior to the Reformation who believed that evil thoughts come from God.

I can't name any theologian, including Calvin, either before or after the Reformation who believed that evil thoughts come directly from God. But I can name many who, like Calvin, believed that God predestined all things, including who specifically would be saved, to the exclusion of all others. As I mentioned before, Wycliffe, Hus, and Augustine are three examples. Another one, and one who was part of the Roman Catholic Church and was never in any way repudiated by the Church for his views was Gottschalk of Orbais in the 9th century. Another Catholic in good standing who held such views in the midst of the Reformation was Cornelius Jansenius.

 

[erowe1]

Incorrect. Just because God knows what will happen does not mean He is responsible for it. You are the one putting limits to God.

So I guess neither can you answer my question.

I answered it in a way that is entirely honest as to what I personally believe. I even gave you direct yes and no answers depending on which aspect of God's will you intended. You may say this is limiting God, but to me it is only describing God as he himself has revealed his character to be.

Without taking the time again to look up the references (several of which I've already given), you should have no trouble with the idea that some action can be both sinful and disobedient to God's prescribed will, while also being predestined by him and in full accordance with his decreed will. The Bible explicitly declares this to be true of Pharaoh's refusal to let Israel leave Egypt, of the bands of Maurauders who killed Job's family, of the Assyrians who attacked Israel, of the Babylonians who attacked Egypt, of those who crucified Jesus, and of those whom John saw giving their kingdom over to the beast.