Immigration & Welfare

[r3volution 3.0]

Not all Liberty candidates are open borders nuts.

Indeed, very few liberty candidates take the libertarian position, at least not in public, but I'm not sure how that's a response to my comment.

They vote worse, and the degree to which they do so rises with the percentage of un-assimilated immigrants.

If by "worse" you mean more Democratic, that's certainly true, but that's not more anti-liberty.

Controlled Immigration is not the exclusive property of Nativists, anymore than freedom is the exclusive property of Anarchists.

...not sure what you mean.

If you mean that people other than nativists can favor restricted immigration, well, I'm not going to debate semantics.

The fact is that every day FOX runs anti-immigrant stories for 16 hours is a day they're not talking about spending, the Fed, or the wars.

The more anti-immigrant hysteria there is, the more likely we are to get Trumps instead of Pauls.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Indeed, very few liberty candidates take the libertarian position, at least not in public, but I'm not sure how that's a response to my comment.

Liberty candidates can be elected in a controlled immigration environment.

If by "worse" you mean more Democratic, that's certainly true, but that's not more anti-liberty.

Yes it is, The Dems do every bad thing the Repubs do and they do them worse and they do more bad things.

...not sure what you mean.

If you mean that people other than nativists can favor restricted immigration, well, I'm not going to debate semantics.

The fact is that every day FOX runs anti-immigrant stories for 16 hours is a day they're not talking about spending, the Fed, or the wars.

The more anti-immigrant hysteria there is, the more likely we are to get Trumps instead of Pauls.

As if they would not find something else to distract the public. At least if they get the public to care about our borders that is more useful than the usual tripe they waste the airwaves on.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

Culture is the short answer.

My answer would be: what's on the news. In one sense, all (mass) politics is identity politics, it's all a culture war and always has been. Even in the 19th century, when there were hugely important differences between the parties, the underlying motivation of the average voter was cultural: low church v. high church. The thing is, that's just clay. It's shaped by propaganda. You can turn those emotions and instincts into anything at all. You can take the retarded nationalism of the average GOPer and turn it into libertarian patriotism (started to happen a bit from 08-12), or you could take the retarded victim-outrage among certain racial minorities and turn it toward other (real) victimizers. It's all very fluid. It's not about who the population is, it's about what the news says to them, how the party interacts them, etc.

 

[Swordsmyth]

My answer would be: what's on the news. In one sense, all (mass) politics is identity politics, it's all a culture war and always has been. Even in the 19th century, when there were hugely important differences between the parties, the underlying motivation of the average voter was cultural: low church v. high church. The thing is, that's just clay. It's shaped by propaganda. You can turn those emotions and instincts into anything at all. You can take the retarded nationalism of the average GOPer and turn it into libertarian patriotism (started to happen a bit from 08-12), or you could take the retarded victim-outrage among certain racial minorities and turn it toward other (real) victimizers. It's all very fluid. It's not about who the population is, it's about what the news says to them, how the party interacts them, etc.

Culture is less plastic than that, and has deeper roots in history, unless you kidnap children and raise them on a desert island without exposure to their elders.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

Culture is less plastic than that, and has deeper roots in history, unless you kidnap children and raise them on a desert island without exposure to their elders.

The many sudden shifts in voting behavior throughout history (without demographic change) suggest otherwise. Well, let me be clear: the culture itself may be quite fixed (traditional catholics don't start rolling on floors within one generation, usually), but the political expression of those values can change on a dime, because it's determined by the media et al.

 

[Swordsmyth]

The many sudden shifts in voting behavior throughout history (without demographic change) suggest otherwise. Well, let me be clear: the culture itself may be quite fixed (traditional catholics don't start rolling on floors within one generation, usually), but the political expression of those values can change on a dime, because it's determined by the media et al.

And some political ideologies are outside the range of some cultures.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

And some political ideologies are outside the range of some cultures.

Voter need not understand the ideology of the person/party they support.

It's sufficient that they be led to vote for that person/party by some slogans which they do understand.

This is already what almost always happens in all elections everywhere.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Voter need not understand the ideology of the person/party they support.

It's sufficient that they be led to vote for that person/party by some slogans which they do understand.

This is already what almost always happens in all elections everywhere.

The truth can not thrive on the tactics of the empire of lies, you will never manipulate people into a state of freedom, the lies are always more seductive, the truth has rough edges, only those who understand and accept it will choose it.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

The truth can not thrive on the tactics of the empire of lies, you will never manipulate people into a state of freedom, the lies are always more seductive, the truth has rough edges, only those who understand and accept it will chose it.

Democracy isn't a philosophy seminar; very few people will ever cast an educated vote: a majority, never. It's a propaganda battle, largely between non-ideological interest groups seeking boodle, creating propaganda to enlist the masses in their boodle-seeking. Now, I do agree that manipulating people in a liberal direction is very difficult, not because manipulation itself is difficult, but because liberalism offers no boodle, so liberal movements have to rely on altruistic investors, which are few and far between. With enough money, however, yes, you could elect a liberal government in Cairo.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Democracy isn't a philosophy seminar; very few people will ever cast an educated vote: a majority, never. It's a propaganda battle, largely between non-ideological interest groups seeking boodle, creating propaganda to enlist the masses in their boodle-seeking. Now, I do agree that manipulating people in a liberal direction is very difficult, not because manipulation itself is difficult, but because liberalism offers no boodle, so liberal movements have to rely on altruistic investors, which are few and far between. With enough money, however, yes, you could elect a liberal government in Cairo.

The people need not understand the details but they must believe the broad strokes, some cultures are too far removed from liberty and the people will not listen.
I do not think you will change your mind at this point, you are too invested in your opinion, I will not be shaken from mine.
But perhaps you can at least see that immigrants are more resistant to the liberty message than Americans, at least we have given unbroken lip service to liberty since the bill of rights.

 

[Ender]

The people need not understand the details but they must believe the broad strokes, some cultures are too far removed from liberty and the people will not listen.
I do not think you will change your mind at this point, you are too invested in your opinion, I will not be shaken from mine.
But perhaps you can at least see that immigrants are more resistant to the liberty message than Americans, at least we have given unbroken lip service to liberty since the bill of rights.

Americans have lived so long in The Matrix, most are clueless about real Liberty- they believe in gov involvement in every aspect of their lives and do not comprehend how unnecessary it all is.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Americans have lived so long in The Matrix, most are clueless about real Liberty- they believe in gov involvement in every aspect of their lives and do not comprehend how unnecessary it all is.

And the immigrants are even worse culturally.

 

[Ender]

And the immigrants are even worse culturally.

The Mexicans I know are some of the hardest workers on the planet. Just sayin'.

 

[Swordsmyth]

The Mexicans I know are some of the hardest workers on the planet. Just sayin'.

And they believe in socialism just the same.

 

[Ender]

And they believe in socialism just the same.

Not any I know-

 

[TheCount]

Not any I know-

Knowing other people is outdated. We can learn everything we need to know about them by reading about their ethnicity on the internet.

 

[Ender]

Knowing other people is outdated. We can learn everything we need to know about them by reading about their ethnicity on the internet.

LOL

 

[Swordsmyth]

Not any I know-

Knowing other people is outdated. We can learn everything we need to know about them by reading about their ethnicity on the internet.

We know how immigrants (legal or illegal) overwhelmingly vote, stop being obtuse.

 

[otherone]

We know how immigrants (legal or illegal) overwhelmingly vote, stop being obtuse.

F*CKING MEXICANS

 

[Swordsmyth]

F*CKING MEXICANS

Why don't we just go back to the war of northern aggression? (The civil war for stupid yankees)
Immigrants of any race are more socialist than Americans they were back in FDR's time as well.
Americans=bad does not disprove immigrants=worse.