I'm Accused of Drinking the "Libertarian/"Anti-Zionist" Kool-Aid!

[libertygrl]

This is pathetic. I thought I was having a polite civil discussion on a conservative forum about the difference between Ron Paul & Michelle Bachmann's foreign policy views and this is what I get accused of? Some of these people are so freakin' cranky!

And the guy is trying to school me on Washington and Jefferson??? Ugh! Read this and be prepared to hurl:


As to having religion as a moral compass that guides our decisions, foreign policy or otherwise, it's what guided Washington & Jefferson. I suggest you read some of the writings of GW. Even when forced to wage war, his religious morality drove him to treat our enemy with compassion, even as they did the opposite to our troops. Our early foreign policy of treating each nation with mutual respect was grounded in the religious doctrine of "do unto others as you would have others do to you." If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me & a far cry from the greed & immorality that drives most of our "leaders" these days.

As far as Israel is concerned, I can see you've drunk the Libertarian/"Anti-Zionist" Cool Aid there. For every one of your headlines, I could point to one where the US was spying on Israel, but I won't bother. You'll never find a stronger supporter of Israel than me, so clearly there's no further use in arguing that point any further.

As to your "the lesser of two evils is still evil" platitude, I've got another for you, "Let not the perfect be the enemy of the good". I contend your argument is false on 2 counts.

First, it presumes the candidate you oppose is evil and second it presumes the one you support is perfect. There is no perfect in this world. You may believe Ron Paul is better than Michele Bachmann & I might even agree with you on some counts, but neither one is perfect & neither is evil.

From where I sit, the only evil at the moment is the current inhabitant of the White House & if he gets re-elected in 2012, there may not be much of this country left by the time his regulatory bureaucracy in the EPA, FDA, FCC, gets finished with us. I still believe Bachmann has a far better chance than Paul of actually being elected & so I'm supporting her. Period. I'm not prepared to stand on principle & go down with the ship. I worry about my kids' future & that's what it's all about for me.

 

[LibertyEagle]

I agree with him on Washington and Jefferson. May I ask how this even turned to a religious discussion?

I don't agree with his conclusion on voting for Bachmann, but I understand where he is coming from. We simply have to come up with a good argument to counter this thought.

Overall, he seems like a good guy. He's just scared for his country and feels like voting for Paul is too much of a risk, given the alternative.

 

[libertygrl]

I agree with him on Washington and Jefferson. May I ask how this even turned to a religious discussion?

I don't agree with his conclusion on voting for Bachmann, but I understand where he is coming from. We simply have to come up with a good argument to counter this thought.

You have no idea how I regret getting into this stupid discussion. But I'm always trying to turn people onto RP. It get's mentally exhausting after awhile!

It turned religious when he posted a link for people on the forum to vote for Bachmann and I said I'll pass because I found her foreign policy views frightening and showed him this quote:

Bachmann: " I am convinced in my heart and in my mind that if the United States fails to stand with Israel, that is the end of the United States . . . [W]e have to show that we are inextricably entwined, that as a nation we have been blessed because of our relationship with Israel, and if we reject Israel, then there is a curse that comes into play. And my husband and I are both Christians, and we believe very strongly the verse from Genesis [Genesis 12:3], we believe very strongly that nations also receive blessings as they bless Israel. It is a strong and beautiful principle".

*http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/50463.html#ixzz1QDSVvzCE

 

[LibertyEagle]

Yeah, the only thing I have come up with that worked is to argue that Americans, as individuals, should feel free to donate any or all of their money to Israel. But, to use big government to stick their hands in their neighbors' pockets and forcefully steal their money to give to Israel is nothing but socialism. People claiming to be conservatives HATE to be called for supporting the nanny state.

It also seems like today we could use our own dismal economy to argue that we simply do not have the money to give to anyone; regardless of their personal wishes. That our government's first duty is to America and Americans.

 

[Telkandore]

I'm not prepared to stand on principle../

I think that pretty much sums up his argument. You should probably ask him what he's doing on a conservative forum, not that I'm some great cheerleader of conservatism but to bemoan moral decay and the decline of values even as you actively compromise them is simply moronic; where would we be if the Founders had not been prepared to stand on principle?

And to call you or anyone else an "Anti-Zionist" because they support non-interventionism is exactly like calling him a racist because he doesn't like Obama. As such, you should politely inform him that there is no proper place in civilized political discussion for a rabid, self-professed white supremacist such as himself.

 

[libertygrl]

Yeah, the only thing I have come up with that worked is to argue that Americans, as individuals, should feel free to donate any or all of their money to Israel. But, to use big government to stick their hands in their neighbors' pockets and forcefully steal their money to give to Israel is nothing but socialism. People claiming to be conservatives HATE to be called for supporting the nanny state.

It also seems like today we could use our own dismal economy to argue that we simply do not have the money to give to anyone; regardless of their personal wishes. That our government's first duty is to America and Americans.

That's the best counter argument on this particular issue that I've ever read LibertyEagle. Short and to the point. Is there a thread for counter arguments? If not, we need to start one that activists can take advantage of. Thanks!

 

[James Madison]

Seems like he's more interested in getting Obama out of the White House than electing a true conservative. The right should love Obama--he's continuing everything Bush started.

My question is why does he feel the U.S. needs to protect Israel?

 

[LibertyEagle]

libertygrl, I don't know that we have one. But, I agree that it's something we've needed for a very long time.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Seems like he's more interested in getting Obama out of the White House than electing a true conservative. The right should love Obama--he's continuing everything Bush started.

My question is why does he feel the U.S. needs to protect Israel?

It's a biblical thing, I'm sure. But, instead of going down that road, because we will fail, it seems much better to just argue that our government is broke and that our government's first duty is to America and Americans. Any conservative will have a hard time arguing with that. Then, if you say that you, however, are a very strong supporter of an individual's right to give their own money to Israel, it doesn't leave them with much room to argue. And it keeps you out of a religious discussion.

 

[acptulsa]

Seems like he's more interested in getting Obama out of the White House than electing a true conservative.

If this were true, he should be all over Ron Paul as there's just no question that he's the strongest in the Republican field against Obama in the general election.

The right should love Obama--he's continuing everything Bush started.

Obviously he does love Obama, or he wouldn't be so interested in pitting the weaker candidate against him.

My question is why does he feel the U.S. needs to protect Israel?

Probably has something to do with the fact that we give almost as much foreign military aid to Israel's enemies as we do to the Zionists themselves.

And his Boeing, G.E. and KBR stocks, of course.

 

[Jandrsn21]

Yeah, the only thing I have come up with that worked is to argue that Americans, as individuals, should feel free to donate any or all of their money to Israel. But, to use big government to stick their hands in their neighbors' pockets and forcefully steal their money to give to Israel is nothing but socialism. People claiming to be conservatives HATE to be called for supporting the nanny state.

It also seems like today we could use our own dismal economy to argue that we simply do not have the money to give to anyone; regardless of their personal wishes. That our government's first duty is to America and Americans.

I like this! I have never thought to compare foreign aid to socialism! That will make my job much easier with a few people I'm actively converting!

So far I've got one Paul voter. This is good considering what I'm up against! I've got family who still wear Desert Storm tshirts :O

 

[Johnca]

You guys have no idea the kind of power isreal posesses over your politicians and this country.

 

[Kregisen]

I like this! I have never thought to compare foreign aid to socialism! That will make my job much easier with a few people I'm actively converting!

So far I've got one Paul voter. This is good considering what I'm up against! I've got family who still wear Desert Storm tshirts :O

It's really the only argument against warhawks....tell them to actually think about it for a second. We're using our federal government to steal money from citizens to give to foreign countries...or in Ron Paul's words: "take from the poor people of a rich country and give to the rich people of a poor country" - look none other than Mubarak of Egypt...we gave Egypt $50 billion and most if not all went straight into Mubarak's personal European bank accounts. It's communism.

 

[parocks]

The founder of Neocon (Irving Kristol) was a Humphrey supporter.

The name "neoconservative" was invented by socialist Michael Harrington in 1973, after Kristol voted for Nixon.

Kristol was a Trotskyite in the 1930's, when Robert Taft was fighting against the new deal.

Ron Paul's foreign policy is very similar to Robert Taft's.

Trotsky's foreign policy was to attack other countries to bring them communism.
The NeoCommunists (go ahead with that) modified Trotsky a bit, saying that we should attack other countries to bring them democracy.

If you're on a conservative message board, you're going to have some people trying to tear down Ron Paul, others trying to build up Ron Paul, and those who are less decided.

You want to get your talking points out.

Ron Paul is the true conservative. His enemies are communists.

Communists are not conservative, even if the media says they are.

You have enough information in those talking points to really piss the neocons off.

 

[Cleaner44]

That's the best counter argument on this particular issue that I've ever read LibertyEagle. Short and to the point. Is there a thread for counter arguments? If not, we need to start one that activists can take advantage of. Thanks!

I am creating a blog for counter arguments. I just made a new posting today. The idea is to have solid rebuttals to common bullshit.
http://thecaseforronpaul.wordpress.com/

 

[IndianaPolitico]

About Israel, one argument I have thought of is, "Saying you don't support Israel because you want to end foreign aid, is like saying you hate farmers because you want to end farm subsidies!"

 

[Cleaner44]

Yeah, the only thing I have come up with that worked is to argue that Americans, as individuals, should feel free to donate any or all of their money to Israel. But, to use big government to stick their hands in their neighbors' pockets and forcefully steal their money to give to Israel is nothing but socialism. People claiming to be conservatives HATE to be called for supporting the nanny state.

It also seems like today we could use our own dismal economy to argue that we simply do not have the money to give to anyone; regardless of their personal wishes. That our government's first duty is to America and Americans.

libertygrl, I don't know that we have one. But, I agree that it's something we've needed for a very long time.

I like this! I have never thought to compare foreign aid to socialism! That will make my job much easier with a few people I'm actively converting!

So far I've got one Paul voter. This is good considering what I'm up against! I've got family who still wear Desert Storm tshirts :O

About Israel, one argument I have thought of is, "Saying you don't support Israel because you want to end foreign aid, is like saying you hate farmers because you want to end farm subsidies!"

I am going to work on crafting a solid rebuttal on this subject. I will post it asap.

 

[Cleaner44]

How far should the U.S. go to support Israel?

Israel is a long time ally of the U.S. and the relationship is complex. The U.S. can support Israel in many ways, but financially is the wrong way. Giving foreign aid to Israel is wrong for many reasons.

The U.S. is deeply in debt and must continually borrow money from nations such as China just to operate on a daily basis. Borrowing money to give away to foreign nations that do not pay into our national treasury is fiscally irresponsible.

American citizens can and should be free to give their own private money to Israel if they wish. When the Federal government taxes citizens and/or borrows money to give away to any foreign nation, the government is redistributing wealth. Redistributing wealth from American taxpayers to a foreign nation is simply another form of welfare.

Welfare is favored by socialists as it is looked upon as a situation where the ends justifies the means. Socialism and redistribution of wealth is wrong, even if it is done with the best of intentions. This wrong was tolerated for many decades as the national debt of the U.S. was ignored, but that no longer can be done.

The American taxpayer can no longer afford the expense of borrowing money to give foreign aid to Israel, while sticking the bill to our children.

 

[Canderson]

Tell him our influence over Israel restricts their ability to act in their own interests, when they bombed Saddam's nuclear reactor in 1981 (operation Opera) the United States was upset because we were giving Iraq money and weapons for their war against Iran, which was ruled by insane islamo-fascists after a popular rebellion against the brutal dictator installed by the CIA after we overthrew the democratically elected Mosaddegh, the middle easts most western government (operation Ajax). The US tightened the leash after that, and Israel has been severely restricted in responding to threats from terrorism because it has to consult washington. Israel may have already bombed Iran's nuclear facilities if they didnt need to ask permission from the US.

The same thing is going on in S Korea. The south can crush the North militarily, Kim jong il's army is equiped with old soviet equipment from the 50s and 60s. South Korean troops would most likely have been parachuting into Pyongyang a day or two after their warship was sunk, but because we bribe their government WITH AMERICAN's TAX DOLLARS, they have to consult Washington, who wants to maintain the status quo in order to keep China from asking us to pay our loans.

 

[Jandrsn21]

It's really the only argument against warhawks....tell them to actually think about it for a second. We're using our federal government to steal money from citizens to give to foreign countries...or in Ron Paul's words: "take from the poor people of a rich country and give to the rich people of a poor country" - look none other than Mubarak of Egypt...we gave Egypt $50 billion and most if not all went straight into Mubarak's personal European bank accounts. It's communism.

Good advice! Egypt is an easy example. Ron Paul really clarified that scenario very well. I can just copy and paste his interviews, lol. I personally don't have a problem with Israel. I know many Israelis, one is my best friend, he served in the military there, and the other my ex, she was raised there. The Israeli people I know are good people. I really think the financial crisis is going to do all the hard work for us though. When people start understanding the crisis that's coming, they will call for it. Until then, you just have tea party talking points. Cut Spending! Balance the Budget! Many of these people, know something is wrong, got some good one liners and stopped there. As time progresses and the economy degrades further and people really start to understand what we are up against, It will make my job much easier!