If you want to insure Liberty reigns we have to reduce and control Immigration

[Quark]

Half of the Young of Americans for Liberty section at my university (a private research university known for engineering and computer science) consists of the children of immigrants or are immigrants themselves. Three have parents from East Asia, two from India, and two from Hispanic America. The other half consists of mostly White-Americans with some Americans of Hispanic decent (of various races.) Probably a good majority of us are athiests/non-religious.

Anyway, I don't think we can increase liberty by creating government powers. Also I know from enough experience that the political views of the children don't very much align with the political views of the parents and that public schooling, higher education, job occupation, and social media are much more crucial factors for one's political development.

When it comes down to it, most Americans are moderates. The younger generations are much less moderate though, and we are much more influenced in every way, toward liberty or statism. I have not noticed any trend between those who have had families who lived here for many generations, and those whom are children or grandchildren of immigrants.

Posting party affiliations between Democrats vs. Republicans tells me nothing about who is more libertarian by the way. And by averages, it would make more sense to import Hispanics so that they can keep up with Black birth rates and mitigate the much more disproportionately illibertarian political views of Black-Americans (who are a fast growing population group.) Also you should consider regional distributions of these ethnic groups. Most Hispanics and Blacks live in urban areas and liberal states where the politicians and the topic of gun control (for example) in general are skewed so much that they are effective in forming the opinions of their populations. A larger percentage of White-Americans on the other-hand (than either group) live in rural and suburban areas where the opinions are much less skewed or skewed otherwise.

To blindly post statistics without considering the whole picture is a type of intellectual dishonesty that is quite often found in the political ideologies you don't seem to be quite fond of.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

I like how so many of your bar graphs are various shades of brown.
Really drives home the main anti-immigration talking point.

So you have no point to make, just play the race card?

Sorry if you can not deal with the fact that thanks to the 1965 Immigration act we are letting in a ,majority of the 3rd world, and as you also fail to see they do not value Liberty, it is time to reduce immigration from cultures and people that do not.
Mexico (13.5%) 134,198China (6.9%) 68,410India (6.6%) 65,506Philippines (5.3%) 52,955Dominican Republic (4.1%) 41,487Cuba (3.1%) 31,343Vietnam (2.7%) 26,578South Korea (2.3%) 22,937Colombia (2.1%) 20,611Haiti (2.0%) 20,083Total Admissions 484,938

Those nations and cultures are not compatible with ours.

http://www.fairus.org/DocServer/research-pub/FAIR_HowToWin_2015.pdf

 

[timosman]

So if all is lost then why do you bother to speak?

I am not saying everything is lost. I am saying it is foolish to wait for the collapse. You have to act now, not wait for the collapse which may take decades.

 

[fisharmor]

So you have no point to make, just play the race card?
......
Those nations and cultures are not compatible with ours.

Oh, DO go on about how I'm a racist.

 

[fisharmor]

Half of the Young of Americans for Liberty section at my University (a private research university known for engineering and computer science) consists of the children of immigrants or are immigrants themselves. Three have parents from East Asia, two from India, and two from Hispanic America.

Dude, didn't you get the memo prior to this? Their cultures are incompatible with liberty. They're sub-humans who can't comprehend the subject we're discussing here.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Half of the Young of Americans for Liberty section at my University (a private research university known for engineering and computer science) consists of the children of immigrants or are immigrants themselves. Three have parents from East Asia, two from India, and two from Hispanic America. The other half consists of mostly White-Americans with some Americans of Hispanic decent (of various races.) Probably a good majority of us are athiests/non-religious.

Anyway, I don't think we can increase liberty by creating government powers. Also I know from enough experience that the political views of the children don't very much align with the political views of the parents and that public schooling, higher education, job occupation, and social media are much more crucial factors for one's political development.

Do they believe in the right of self determination? National Sovereignty? Protection of a majority culture?

Once again, look at the graph, we can not risk it? What for? What do we gain that we can not create/do ourselves? More over look at the price if we are wrong... Its not worth the gamble. Not by a long shot.

WE can not assimilate them as the cultural foundation is being split apart from within.

When it comes down to it, most Americans are moderates. The younger generations are much less moderate though, and we are much more influenced in every way, toward liberty or statism. I have not noticed any trend between those who have had families who lived here for many generations, and those whom are children or grandchildren of immigrants.

You are right about that, as a 25 year old I know non, either hard left, or hard right..."Compromise" means you lose everything.

Then you are clearly not looking...Do you not see the threads?

http://www.eagleforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/2014_ImmigrationBook-6-12-14.pdf


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/column-illegal-immigration-affects-electoral-votes/

http://cis.org/immigration-impacts-on-republican-prospects-1980-2012

They do effect our politics and not for the better.

Posting party affiliations between Democrats vs. Republicans tells me nothing about who is more libertarian by the way. And by averages, it would make more sense to import Hispanics so that they can keep up with Black birth rates and mitigate the much more disproportionately illibertarian political views of Black-Americans (who are a fast growing population group.) Also you should consider regional distributions of these ethnic groups. Most Hispanics and Blacks live in urban areas and liberal states where the politicians and the topic of gun control (for example) in general are skewed so much that they are effective in forming the opinions of their populations. A larger percentage of White-Americans on the other-hand (than either group) live in rural and suburban areas where the opinions are much less skewed or skewed otherwise.

Yes it does, it shows us how they view the role of the state and how they likely view Liberty.

No, it does not, they do not have views that are compatible to ours, they vote for the hard left, which harms up, its best to keep them out of our nation.


And their actions/votes effect us on the national level via the Congress/White House so it not all local.

To blindly post statistics without considering the whole picture is a type of intellectual dishonesty that is quite often found in the political ideologies you don't seem to be quite fond of.

Dishonesty? You think have the gall to say that to me?

I am not fond of being displaced in my nation and losing all that I have been given by my forefathers in the name of lies, myths, and magical thinking.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Oh, DO go on about how I'm a racist.

I do not really value your opinion, actions, or life to be honest. Do what you want, I will not pay for the costs or tolerate how it effects me.

Not wanting to be washed away by mass immigration is never "racist", sorry if you can not understand that.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Dude, didn't you get the memo prior to this? Their cultures are incompatible with liberty. They're sub-humans who can't comprehend the subject we're discussing here.

Wow...see what I mean, use the cry of "racism" to silent others..You are no better then a leftist.

Some cultures by and large can not understand other cultures or value them and the value/principals they are founded on, that is not their fault it is just a fact.

 

[Quark]

Do they believe in the right of self determination? National Sovereignty? Protection of a majority culture?

Once again, look at the graph, we can not risk it? What for? What do we gain that we can not create/do ourselves? More over look at the price if we are wrong... Its not worth the gamble. Not by a long shot.

WE can not assimilate them as the cultural foundation is being split apart from within.

Since when did "libertarian" mean "nationalist?" Why should I recognize collective "rights" such as the right to self-determination and "national sovereignty" as opposed to individual rights? Do you support the rights of individuals to self-determine that they are not part of a "nation?" If not, then I don't think your concept of individualism and liberty align with the traditional thoughts on the matter.

You are right about that, as a 25 year old I know non, either hard left, or hard right..."Compromise" means you lose everything.

Then you are clearly not looking...Do you not see the threads?

http://www.eagleforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/2014_ImmigrationBook-6-12-14.pdf


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/column-illegal-immigration-affects-electoral-votes/

http://cis.org/immigration-impacts-on-republican-prospects-1980-2012

They do effect our politics and not for the better.

They live in traditionally liberal regions in an electoral system. These voting districts would've been liberal regardless of immigrants. And when immigrants move to non-liberal areas of the country, they tend to be much less liberal.

Yes it does, it shows us how they view the role of the state and how they likely view Liberty.

Only a small subset of the republican (and democratic) parties are libertarians. So I really don't see how. The Republicans might talk about the role of government, but they are quite quick to discard it when it is politically or functionally convenient for them. Likewise for Democrats who hold dissonant views on when government is allowed to intervene in people's lives. Both parties support intervention and are - for the most part - with a few exceptions (i.e Ron Paul) illibertarian.

No, it does not, they do not have views that are compatible to ours, they vote for the hard left, which harms up, its best to keep them out of our nation.

Relative to Black Americans they seem much more split on issues. If Hispanics didn't come to the U.S then you would have Black Americans with a positive population growth and White-Americans with a negative population growth. Eventually when Black Americans reached 25% of the population (and assuming White-Americans are split something like 50:50 on most issues) that means a win for liberals indefinitely. If you had Hispanic Americans in the mix, who can keep up with the Black-American population rates, and as your graphs show, become less left-wing and statist with each generation you can decrease the rate in which this happens.

And their actions/votes effect us on the national level via the Congress/White House so it not all local.

Let's assume voting really matters. In the current electoral system the national vote depends on regional districts (winner takes all.) If the majority of Hispanics and blacks live in cities, they are not going to affect the electoral votes in the rural and suburban states which depend on geography and not population. If what you say is true then we should have a Democratic/mixed congress.

Dishonesty? You think have the gall to say that to me?

Yes, it is dishonest to post a bunch of statistics without considering the multitude of other factors which cause political ideology besides racial/ethnic/cultural background.

I am not fond of being displaced in my nation and losing all that I have been given by my forefathers in the name of lies, myths, and magical thinking.

The U.S has never been a nation-state. In the 1600's the Amerindians were complaining about the English, French, and Spanish. In the 1700's my English ancestors were complaining about my German ancestors. In the 1800's my German and English were complaining about Italians, Poles, Russians, and Irish. Today you are complaining about Hispanics, Asians, Indians, etc.

Nationalism is a form of collectivism. You say you oppose collectivism, yet you embellish nationalism. These are incompatible opinions.

 

[wizardwatson]

To eliminate collectivism all us individualists should collectivize, identity the collectivists and eliminate them - Thread number 943.

 

[tod evans]

You are right about that, as a 25 year old [snip]

I am not fond of being displaced in my nation and losing all that I have been given by my forefathers in the name of lies, myths, and magical thinking.

Way I read your diatribe you believe you're entitled to the nation your forefathers fought for only back a few generations.....

See I'm part of the generation that's managed to completely fuck up that whole notion......

As things sit you're not even entitled to what your immediate relatives leave you as an inheritance unless they've had the forethought to retain legal counsel and take steps to keep government from taking a large chunk.....

Might I advise you as I once was? "Go out and grab the world by it's balls while you're young! All too soon you'll find yourself old and jaded."

You're not really fighting immigration, at it's root you're fighting government...The sooner you realize that the better off you'll be.

 

[fisharmor]

You're not really fighting immigration, at it's root you're fighting government...The sooner you realize that the better off you'll be.

If he is going out of his way to state multiple times that people from other cultures are genuinely too stupid to process any pro liberty arguments, then I'm not holding my breath that he ever will realize it.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Since when did "libertarian" mean "nationalist?" Why should I recognize collective "rights" such as the right to self-determination and "national sovereignty" as opposed to individual rights? Do you support the rights of individuals to self-determine that they are not part of a "nation?" If not, then I don't think your concept of individualism and liberty align with the traditional thoughts on the matter.

You say nationalist like it is a bad thing, its never wrong to want to protect your nation, culture, and countrymen. Why should you? well you can do what ever you want, you can not control the actions or believes of anyone for the most part.

I do so long as it does not harm or threaten me, my rights, my culture, my nation, or my/their future.

They live in traditionally liberal regions in an electoral system. These voting districts would've been liberal regardless of immigrants. And when immigrants move to non-liberal areas of the country, they tend to be much less liberal.

They would still send far less people to the House and have few electoral votes.

http://www.fairus.org/issue/congressional-seats-and-federal-outlays

http://cis.org/mortensen/census

http://cis.org/ImmigrationEffectCongressionalApportionment

http://cis.org/node/554

Only a small subset of the republican (and democratic) parties are libertarians. So I really don't see how. The Republicans might talk about the role of government, but they are quite quick to discard it when it is politically or functionally convenient for them. Likewise for Democrats who hold dissonant views on when government is allowed to intervene in people's lives. Both parties support intervention and are - for the most part - with a few exceptions (i.e Ron Paul) illibertarian.

No subset of the dems are libertarians, as for the GOP they are the only real choice as to either stop the leftist or to retake the party from the Neo cons.

Yes the Neo cons and establishment are traitors but they are being dealt with as they should be.

The only difference is the left is importing millions of future voters to stack the deck in their favor for good.

Relative to Black Americans they seem much more split on issues. If Hispanics didn't come to the U.S then you would have Black Americans with a positive population growth and White-Americans with a negative population growth. Eventually when Black Americans reached 25% of the population (and assuming White-Americans are split something like 50:50 on most issues) that means a win for liberals indefinitely. If you had Hispanic Americans in the mix, who can keep up with the Black-American population rates, and as your graphs show, become less left-wing and statist with each generation you can decrease the rate in which this happens.

Unlike Blacks, they are flooding into this nation by the millions, blacks are in a population stabilization, if it was not for immigration from Africa it would be falling.

Allowing mass immigration means a win for leftist indefinitely.

Let's assume voting really matters. In the current electoral system the national vote depends on regional districts (winner takes all.) If the majority of Hispanics and blacks live in cities, they are not going to affect the electoral votes in the rural and suburban states which depend on geography and not population. If what you say is true then we should have a Democratic/mixed congress.

God bless gerrymandering, that and voter apathy. Also Evenwel v. Abbott could help us very much.

Yes, it is dishonest to post a bunch of statistics without considering the multitude of other factors which cause political ideology besides racial/ethnic/cultural background.

How so? More over have you seen how they vote and numbers we let in? We are taking in far too many people with views that are not compatible with our own.

The U.S has never been a nation-state. In the 1600's the Amerindians were complaining about the English, French, and Spanish. In the 1700's my English ancestors were complaining about my German ancestors. In the 1800's my German and English were complaining about Italians, Poles, Russians, and Irish. Today you are complaining about Hispanics, Asians, Indians, etc.

Yes, we have and your denial of this does not change it. Yes and they had valid complaints, suppressing of wages, crime, poverty, political displacement. But I guess to you immigration never causes any problems for the natives of a nation.

I like America to stay America, not turn into Mexico, China, or India as those nations and cultures are lesser then this one...

Nationalism is a form of collectivism. You say you oppose collectivism, yet you embellish nationalism. These are incompatible opinions.

No man is a island, you have to live with other people, you might as well have a secure nation, with secure borders with a shared culture based on shared values, shared history, and a shared language. Since you are going to have that why not make sure it is secure for outside invasion or inter-subversion by domestic or foreign influence.

Really? Any valuing Liberty to the point you open the flood gates to the point where you are rendered a minority in your nation, and are never able to win an election again is not incomparable with Liberty? Let alone a untenable position?

Sorry but if you want to commit suicide that is fine, but when you start to point the pistols are others is when you need to be stopped.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

If he is going out of his way to state multiple times that people from other cultures are genuinely too stupid to process any pro liberty arguments, then I'm not holding my breath that he ever will realize it.

So everyone of every culture is agree on the pro liberty arguments? Really? LOL wow..

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Way I read your diatribe you believe you're entitled to the nation your forefathers fought for only back a few generations.....

See I'm part of the generation that's managed to completely fuck up that whole notion......

You mean a nation where we were free? We could be secure in our rights and future, were we are not being displace from immigration and our rights and wealth reduced in the name of the lie of "equality".

You mean a nation were exceptionalism was putting men on the moon and not getting rid of gendered separate bathroom?

You mean a nation where the best and brightest and hardest working could get ahead?

You mean a nation where you had the freedom to by a machine gun or a mortar through the mail?

You mean a nation where money kept its value instead of losing it year by years to pay for system of vote buying and lies?

Yeah, I want that nation, not this system of lies, failure, and anrcho tyranny.

Well it really started on the watch of the Silent generation as they put in the progressive statist, supported the 1th, 17th, 18th Amendments, put Wilson in the White House who threw us into WW1, and allowed the Federal Reserve to be created and countless other acts of tyranny. So to be honest you did not start this mess, you just made it worse...

As things sit you're not even entitled to what your immediate relatives leave you as an inheritance unless they've had the forethought to retain legal counsel and take steps to keep government from taking a large chunk.....

No, I am entitled to my nation, my Liberty, and to secure them.

Might I advise you as I once was? "Go out and grab the world by it's balls while you're young! All too soon you'll find yourself old and jaded."

I live my life by that motto.

You're not really fighting immigration, at it's root you're fighting government...The sooner you realize that the better off you'll be.

I have understood that. Why not stave it for supporters, we have too many sheeple, why not stop them from getting reinforcements?

 

[klamath]

American Spartan do tell us the poll numbers of the VERY white Northern Europe. EVERYONE of those horrible issues have come from Europe. What is it white liberals are always saying? We ought to be more like Sweden! If you say it is white Americans that vote right then Ye all better start having lots and LOTS of babies because THAT is the problem. Whites are so self absorbed in maximizing their personal wealth they want to keep their families small. Darwin speaks.
The real problem is selling freedom to all people and posts like yours are terribly self defeating and a sure way to extinction because it alienates and infuriates the soon to be supper majority.

 

[Quark]

No man is a island, you have to live with other people, you might as well have a secure nation, with secure borders with a shared culture based on shared values, shared history, and a shared language. Since you are going to have that why not make sure it is secure for outside invasion or inter-subversion by domestic or foreign influence.

This is all l I needed really.

Summary of this thread:

'I hate collectivists! We need to prevent immigrants from coming to the U.S because they will overwhelm us with collectivism!'

few posts later

'No man is an island, we need a shared *x,y and z*!!'

The only guns pointed anywhere are by the state on borders against individuals interested in voluntary interactions.

I don't view a stronger government border and anti-immigration as "winning liberty." Most libertarians do not either. Accept and embrace your nationalism and conservatism, but don't pretend it is for reasons of liberty that you have such beliefs. You are a collectivist. Accept that fact!

"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuehrer" seems to describe your beliefs much more accurately than "Live Free or Die."

 

[timosman]

Scandinavian countries are very strong supporters of liberty. Take a look at the law of Jante - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

1. You're not to think you are anything special.
2. You're not to think you are as good as we are.
3. You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
4. You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
5. You're not to think you know more than we do.
6. You're not to think you are more important than we are.
7. You're not to think you are good at anything.
8. You're not to laugh at us.
9. You're not to think anyone cares about you.
10. You're not to think you can teach us anything.
11. Perhaps you don't think we know a few things about you?

 

[tod evans]

You mean a nation where we were free?

Freedom is quite obviously subjective.......

For me it means to be left the hell alone.

I'm quite comfortable stating that I've not been alive during a time of freedom in this country, and I can assure you that you haven't.

No, I am entitled to my nation, my Liberty, and to secure them.

You're entitled to fight for whatever you like just be sure you know your enemy..

I live my life by that motto.

Sure you do that's why you're hoping to rally others to follow your vision.......

I have understood that. Why not stave it for supporters, we have too many sheeple, why not stop them from getting reinforcements?

Sheeple follow............It appears as though you're looking for sheeple to follow you...

Man up, make your own place, don't blame others and above all else don't subsidize your enemy......

 

[AmericanSpartan]

American Spartan do tell us the poll numbers of the VERY white Northern Europe. EVERYONE of those horrible issues have come from Europe. What is it white liberals are always saying? We ought to be more like Sweden! If you say it is white Americans that vote right then Ye all better start having lots and LOTS of babies because THAT is the problem. Whites are so self absorbed in maximizing their personal wealth they want to keep their families small. Darwin speaks.
The real problem is selling freedom to all people and posts like yours are terribly self defeating and a sure way to extinction because it alienates and infuriates the soon to be supper majority.

We can not breed in numbers equal to or greater then the numbers imported because we value having a stranded of living and are not able to meet the requirements for the same welfare programs, seeing that we move to reduce and cap immigration in number and origin.

Stop mass immigration, limit to the nations/cultures of the Freedom Club, grow the economy, redo housing laws as to protect the Freedom of association, and the white birth rate will increase, the Sailer Strategy in action.

Sorry if you can not understand this but some cultures and people will never be willing to buy into freedom, those that do not are not allowed to effect us and reduce our nation, numbers, elections, and futures.

Self Preservation is the first and highest of natures law.