If Immigration is your Primary Concern, Why Vote for Paul?

I'm not trying to weed anyone out, just trying to understand you. Priority number one is to get rid of the welfare / warfare state. It's a parasitic cancer on our society. Anyone who agrees that it's time to return to an economy based on earnings, not handouts, has more in common with me than different.

The question was really just a curiosity, that's all.

If that is your priority, then I hope you see that all is lost when the government deliberately seeks to radically alter the demographics of the nation by either ignoring or encouraging illegal immigration (and proposing amnesty which will attract even more people who will be reliant on the government.) There is absolutely no hope of getting rid of the welfare state if things continue as they are.

Would getting rid of the welfare state discourage illegal immigration? Of course, but how on earth are you going to get there when the very people who are causing our population to increase lean politically to the left?
 
If that is your priority, then I hope you see that all is lost when the government deliberately seeks to radically alter the demographics of the nation by either ignoring or encouraging illegal immigration (and proposing amnesty which will attract even more people who will be reliant on the government.) There is absolutely no hope of getting rid of the welfare state if things continue as they are.

Would getting rid of the welfare state discourage illegal immigration? Of course, but how on earth are you going to get there when the very people who are causing our population to increase lean politically to the left?

I do realize that.

On the other hand, I hope you realize that building a fence is logistically impossible. The border fences that have already been built are ineffective. Immigrants cut holes through it all the time, or just go around it.

I hope you also realize that there are already 10 million people here illegally. If you tried to deport all of them, they're not going to go willingly. The only way to accomplish that would be through force. Not only would such an endeavor destroy our country, but it would also probably result in a bloodbath, and that's very incongruous with the cause of liberty.

So you're left with a decision between having 10 million people here subverting the law or obeying it.

If we grant the voting rights, yes they'll probably vote for more socialism. But that's not because they're bad people. It's because the real conservatives and capitalists in this country have, up until now, done a terrible job of educating people about the virtues of our philosophy. The only way we're ever going to get rid of the welfare state is through education. All other paths lead to failure.
 
I do realize that.

On the other hand, I hope you realize that building a fence is logistically impossible. The border fences that have already been built are ineffective. Immigrants cut holes through it all the time, or just go around it.

I hope you also realize that there are already 10 million people here illegally. If you tried to deport all of them, they're not going to go willingly. The only way to accomplish that would be through force. Not only would such an endeavor destroy our country, but it would also probably result in a bloodbath, and that's very incongruous with the cause of liberty.

So you're left with a decision between having 10 million people here subverting the law or obeying it.

If we grant the voting rights, yes they'll probably vote for more socialism. But that's not because they're bad people. It's because the real conservatives and capitalists in this country have, up until now, done a terrible job of educating people about the virtues of our philosophy. The only way we're ever going to get rid of the welfare state is through education. All other paths lead to failure.

I will argue that Amnesty For Illegals is another Bailout.

We ALREADY did that. Just like we ALREADY bailed out Detroit. We are like ineffectual parents, always threatening that 'this is the LAST time, I MEAN it.' The kids are onto us, and they are playing us like a big brass band.

Grandfather them in as ILLEGALS. REDUCE benefits (me, I WANT them educated in English-speaking, American-history-teaching taxpayer funded excellent public schools.)

Audit the effing lotteries -- there is beaucoup graft going on THERE, obviously.

If Illegals pop onto police radar, they pop onto Immigration radar and they're OUT. High motivation for young 'uns not to become chollos.
 
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I strongly supported Ron Paul and I advocate totally open borders (ideally). That probably has something to do with the fact that I believe in abolishing government entirely.

This issue is like a lot of other libertarian conundrums: if we don't have simultaneous reform on several fronts at once, there well be negative social consequences.

Then again, there's always the argument that illegal immigration, like bailouts and stimulus will ultimately cause our unconstitutional, tyrannical, and unsustainable system of government to collapse - a greater reduction in the size of government than the political methods of libertarian reform could ever bring about alone.
 
I was a supporter of Trancredo, passed out materials and bumper stickers. But in the begining
he could not get a word in as the debate people kept giving Rudy too much time.
Paul and Trancredo got potraied as extremest. Illegal immigration is one of the biggest drains on the economy, Not to mention that it has and will drastically change America, if legallized there will never be another party elected but democrats, and 12-20 more non citizens will be added to the welfare roles, wages will be supressed and even more US worker will be displaced from the meat packing , construction and many other jobs. They have the highest drop out rate and the higest out of wed lock and tenage birth rate. They are the largest cost of health and education spending, Tearcher are being laid off in every state by federal amndate English Language Learner programs are protected. YOU bet its the main issue for me because it is directly related to every other issue. Both parties want it and it will be the beginning of the end of the USA. If we can not stop this we can not stop anything
 
If you think open borders and mass immigration are what liberty is all about, then you shouldn't be here on a Ron Paul message board. You should be hanging out with the Obama people, or the McCain people.

+1
 
We control the borders of Kosovo and Iraq on the other side of the world. We can control our own border. It's not as hard as some would have us believe.
It's not the Afghanistan/Pakistan border. If we put in half the effort on our border that we do on that one, we would shut down 99 percent of the illegal immigration into this country.

We built a fence across the border of North and South Korea and stopped all movement of people for 50 years between what for 1,000 years was one nation. Building a fence on our own border is not logistically impossible. In fact, the fence across the California/Mexico border was highly effective and forced illegal immigration eastward to Arizona. In Arizona, they are doing a pretty good job of cracking down on illegals coming across. It's just a matter of not letting the politics of La Raza, the ACLU and liberal newspapers get in the way of the will of the voters and the enforcement of the law.

Arizona is much better at workplace enforcement than California. That's why it's so much harder on the middle class in California than in Arizona and why California is losing its middle class and is devolving into a society of an ultra rich class exploiting a dysfunctional ultra poor class, with the middle being squeezed out and fleeing for places like Arizona.

We can easily send back 10 million illegal immigrants. I could do it tomorrow if I were calling the shots. Eliminate all welfare for illegals, and impose a $1,000 per day fine on employers for each illegal worker, with $500 awarded to the person who reports any employer exploiting illegal labor. Also, immediately deport any person arrested for a DUI who is here illegally and you'd probably get rid of a million in a few months and save tens of thousands of American lives a year and millions upon millions in taxpayer money.

If you value our Constitution, then please remember the culture that gave birth to it. We need to protect that culture and our traditions if we want our Constitution to survive. If you think those traditions will survive when immigrants from the Third World outnumber people raised here with those traditions, then come hang out in California where American traditions are being overwhelmed under a flood of Latin Americans, Chinese and Indian immigrants who think America is a cash cow not to be milked, but to be slaughtered and its bones picked clean.

Spend a little time south of the border if you want to see our future if the current rate of immigration remains unchanged.

In California, George Washington is seen less as a founder of this nation, and more as a slave-owning warmonger. Edison was just another greedy, exploitive capitalist white man.

Cesar Chavez and Malcolm X are the heroes for the new America. Or is it Aztlan now? Community organizer is the new profession of choice. Prosperity is earned not by the sweat of your brow and the cleverness of your mind, but by marching and waving the flag of your home country and demanding your rights and what you deserve. All those white people in the big houses owe you for what their ancestors allegedly did to your ancestors, and righteous community organizing is the way to get that bling bling into your bank account. That, or selling dope, or robbing 7-Elevens, because gangsta ain't no different than banksta.

A wealthy member of the upper caste in India who was raised by servants has the same rights as you because he has an H1B visa, and he will work for half your wage. There are 300 million people just like him rushing to get on the plane and into your cubicle. And if you complain that he is undercutting your wages and you can no longer afford to raise your family, you need to shut up because you are a fat, lazy American. It's a flat world now, you racist.

But it is still illegal for you to buy land in Mexico. If you want to work in India, you better follow their cultural norms and their rules that protect their workers, or will be deported faster than a bad bowl of curry through your bowels.

Americans used to stand up and fight invaders. They used to be proud of their traditions, prosperity and freedoms and were willing to lay down their lives to protect them and protect the well being of their families.

But now we're becoming just another sweatshop for international bankers. Those bankers have brainwashed most people in this nation into believing that freedom means leaving your door open so foreigners can come in and clean out your home, and then they'll insult you for being an isolationist or a protectionist if you complain about not liking it.

If you think open borders and mass immigration are what liberty is all about, then you shouldn't be here on a Ron Paul message board. You should be hanging out with the Obama people, or the McCain people. The philosophies of Tom Friedman and Larry Summers should be right up your alley. The North American Union and the NWO should put a smile on your face. Maybe the NWO is what liberty means to you.

But that's not how I see it.

holy shit. that is exactly, exactly how i feel. thank you very much.
 
An absolutist position on libertarianism is utopian fantasy. You would have half the world's population coming here if you allowed it....

We are already at a point where the third world immigrant voting bloc will soon make it impossible for Obama and a leftist Congress to ever be dislodged now....

Your so right and if they get rid of the electoral College we are done.
 
No one said he was against legal immigration. Emphasis on LEGAL.

What is his position on US embassies and the bad reputation they have for denying visas to the millions of people who apply for them?

Making LEGAL immigration difficult and a pain in the *** is what causes ILLEGAL immigration.
 
What is his position on US embassies and the bad reputation they have for denying visas to the millions of people who apply for them?
I want a Lotus. So, if I don't get what I want, is it ok for me to go out and steal one?

Making LEGAL immigration difficult and a pain in the *** is what causes ILLEGAL immigration.
He's talked about the huge lag once the process has begun and he has indicated that he believes it to be abhorrent.
 
I propose a MORATORIUM ON IMMIGRATION until this man-made crisis has been resolved -- whether by man, market or God.

Those who are not criminals in Washington are buffoons. EVERY DAY, people who don't know what they're doing and people who are up to no good, are MANIPULATING conditions and circumstances. Within the authentic big-picture paradigm of Continuous Change, we have chronic tinkering AND shifting numbers. We are RIDICULOUS.

OF COURSE we can seal our own borders. We are IN a State of Emergency -- in fact, have we ever had a national dialogue on the political correctness of the COLOR CODING OF OUR THREAT LEVELS?

Americans love Reality TV? Fine. Public hangings of traitors. Sell tickets. Pay-per-view. I could have this country in the black lickety split. Is is okay to refer to "in the black" and "in the red"? Or does that unfairly advantage Blacks at the expense of Communists? Is there a lawyer in the house?

OF COURSE there is. There is ALWAYS a lawyer in the house.

BIG LAW. BIG INSURANCE.

Take a look-see at how often THEY feature in a problem. Neither one of 'em produce a fuckin' thing. Same with financiers.

"GET UP OFF YOUR KNEES AND TAKE BACK WHAT IS YOURS."
 
Huh? You say you disagree with his stance, here, so you must understand that he is not pro open borders (he believes a nation without borders is no nation at all) and he is not pro-abortion. So, please explain why it is that you think the OP asked good questions? :confused:

Ok, now you're telling us what you believe. By the way, it seems clear at least to me, that RP blames the government for the problem, but, he also is a realist that we cannot allow our country to continue to be wholesale invaded by illegal aliens. This is in keeping with Thomas Jefferson's view also; as he wrote about the dangers of doing so.

1. A "Nation State" is a fictional concept, just like borders themselves.
2. You contradicted yourself in the second paragraph. If the government is the problem, then how in the world are we being "invaded by illegal aliens"? There is no legal/illegal status, these are just humans trying to make a better life for themselves. It does you zero harm to let them in if we take out the root problem here, and that is the welfare/warfare state. "Protecting the border" is at best a band aid, and a week one at that. And bringing up TJ doesn't say anything to your point.
 
I want a Lotus. So, if I don't get what I want, is it ok for me to go out and steal one?

He's talked about the huge lag once the process has begun and he has indicated that he believes it to be abhorrent.

Immigration is not something luxurious...for poor Mexicans who are starving it can be a necessity...it's either stay in Mexico and die of hunger or emigrate to the US...and immigration is not something tangible that can be stolen.
 
RevolutionSD,

The only way I can figure out how you arrived at your conclusion is if you don't believe in national sovereignty. And that appears to be the case.

:(
 
Immigration is not something luxurious...for poor Mexicans who are starving it can be a necessity...it's either stay in Mexico and die of hunger or emigrate to the US...and immigration is not something tangible that can be stolen.

Feel free to empty out your bank account and send it to them. Or even move there yourself.

Our country was founded as a nation of laws.
 
Feel free to empty out your bank account and send it to them. Or even move there yourself.

Our country was founded as a nation of laws.

No need for me to do that...and what laws are being broken if applying for a visa/legal immigration stops being a pain in the ***?
 
I think the process is messed up too. It takes too long to complete; whatever the outcome is.

But, just because someone WANTS to immigrate here, doesn't mean that the answer should always be yes.
 
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