I... can't... resist....

[Doktor_Jeep]

AK versus AR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What's yer opinion?

 

[STRATIOTES]

The AK 47 is a communist rip off of the Nazi's design using stamped sheet metal receiver and gas piston that flexes the thin barrel when fired, making a inaccurate firearm with very poor ergonomics.

The AK-47 is used by losing combatants the world over, while every special warfare team the world over chooses the AR platform.

Do you want me to go on ?

 

[Doktor_Jeep]

Yeah but....

the AR has yet to win a war without arty and air support.

So there. Nya nya nya.

 

[STRATIOTES]

Yeah but....

the AR has yet to win a war without arty and air support.

So there. Nya nya nya.

No war is won with just rifles, as with Viet Nam the U.S. won every battle and lost the war and so with the war in Iraq the AR continues to win every battle while the war is lost.

Rifles are just tools to win battles, just as Wisdom is the ideal used to win wars.

ECC 9-18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.

Sin is defined as to miss the mark which is what AK's do most the time and why losers choose them.

 

[rePAULblican]

I like them both. While both rifles are similar they are also different. I carried a M16 for several years in the Army and I own a AK47 variant now. Personally I don’t have a problem with either one. I have put over 2, 500 rounds through my AK and have not had one single problem or issue with it. I even skipped cleaning it and made it dirty on purpose to try to get to malfunction, but to no effect, it still goes bang. Out to 100 yards my AK is combat range accurate. Anything further and you will want an AR. Here are some more points below. As for stealing from the Nazis, we stole plenty of designs too (rockets, airplanes, machine guns). I will be getting me an AR later this year, but it will in .308 caliber and of gas pistion design.

M-16 Pros & Cons
Pros
-It's lighter,
-more accurate,
-more versatile,
-allow numerous modifications to be made
such as mounting various uppers
Cons
-The 5.56 ammunition
reliable with proper maintenance

AK-47 Pros & Cons
Pros
-The AK-47 is a very effective weapon with great power
-It has a very high rate of fire
-comes at a very reasonable price.
-select-fire
-simple to operate, clean, and repair
-reliable
Cons
-Very loud noise
-it's heavy
-not as accurate as most military rifles
-any optics require special adapters
-Many people don't like the AK safety mechanism

 

[Mr.mark]

i like how this video sumed it up

http://youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0

do you want a rifle or a machine gun?

 

[Razmear]

As the owner of 3 SKS's I'd put my money on them any day of the week over an AR.
If you want to spend all day cleaning and preening your rifle, get an AR, if you want something that will shoot every time even after years of neglect, get an SKS.
And regarding accuracy, I've shot skeet with my SKS with iron sights, try that with an AR.
I agree with the scope mount issue, but I don't use them anyways as I think it increases time on target.

I can't say if the same goes for an AK as I never owned one, but I wouldn't trade an SKS for an AR, unless it was to sell the AR and use the cash to get 10 more SKSs.

eb

 

[Luft97]

As the owner of 3 SKS's I'd put my money on them any day of the week over an AR.
If you want to spend all day cleaning and preening your rifle, get an AR, if you want something that will shoot every time even after years of neglect, get an SKS.
And regarding accuracy, I've shot skeet with my SKS with iron sights, try that with an AR.
I agree with the scope mount issue, but I don't use them anyways as I think it increases time on target.

I can't say if the same goes for an AK as I never owned one, but I wouldn't trade an SKS for an AR, unless it was to sell the AR and use the cash to get 10 more SKSs.

eb

Hmm, SKS is an ok weapon. I own one.. I also own a Rock River LAR-15. Rock River picked up a huge contract with the DEA over more well known AR-15 makers.. This is what Rock River's LAR-15 had to pass in order to get the contract with the DEA:

The Rock River Arms LAR-15, after being so configured, was delivered to the “trials” held by the DEA/FBI team which are simply brutal. The trial consists of two parts. The first phase should be termed, “Let’s see if we can break it” or “Is it ‘Marineproof’?” Technically, this phase determines durability and reliability. Of note, after the completion of each segment, the rifle is required to feed and fire 20 rounds from the magazine without malfunction.

As I understand it, the tests begin with a number of sample rifles from the same manufacturer being disassembled. The parts are mixed, the guns are reassembled; then they’re shot. I do not know the exact order, but, at some point, the rifle undergoes the FRISBEE® test, where a sample is thrown 15 feet to land on concrete – once on each side and starting from a height of four feet. After this, the gun, held at the same height, is dropped six different ways on the concrete.

In addition, the rifle is cooked and chilled. It’s put in a box and the temperature is raised to 120° F and lowered to -20° F. Each temperature is then held constant for an hour, after which the previously mentioned function test must be passed. The rifle also gets a saltwater and a sand test – then it is function fired again.

The second part of the test mandates that the rifle fire 5,000 rounds; again, without malfunction. Accuracy, velocity and bullet dispersion are monitored during this test and must stay within prescribed ranges. The Rock River Arms LAR-15 passed every test and Rock River was awarded a five year contract to supply both agencies.

My RR has a quad rail and EOTech holo sight.. I would use it any day over the SKS.. Not that the SKS is bad I just prefer it... My RR fires the 5.56 NATO round whereas the SKS 7.62x39. Depends on what you want to have and what you have to spend think about what kind of ammo is going to be readily available if TSHTF?

My 2c.

 

[Razmear]

Luft,
Just out of curiosity, what did that RR cost?
I paid an average of $175 each for the SKSs.

Back when I owned land in Vermont, we'd go thru a 1000 round case a weekend between the 3 rifles of cheap Wolf ammo with no jams (note: don't use soft tip ammo, or you will have jams and feed issues) and only the very rare misfire (usually the ammo's fault), and we were not kind to the rifles and hardly ever cleaned them (took away from beer drinking time).
I'm sure there are better rifles than the SKS, but for a low cost reliable rifle I don't think it can be beat.

My 3 are all Norinco, I can't attest to any other brand.
Also, I should clarify that there were occasional mag issues with the round springing up to high and getting above the breach, but that only happened in one of my 30 rnd mags if I loaded it full. Putting in 27 rounds instead of 30 resolved that issue, so I don't blame the rifle for those jams as they only happened on the first couple of shots from a full mag.

eb

 

[Luft97]

Luft,
Just out of curiosity, what did that RR cost?

$1350 equiped as shown. No doubt the SKS is a great low cost solution. You can pick up some AR at a lower cost as well, there are many great makers out there. I was impressed by RRA's reliability so I spent a little extra to get what I wanted

 

[Razmear]

Pretty. Lots of drool factor

I never shot with a front pistol grip, I think that would mess me up a bit. Is the front grip of any benifit?

side thought:
can a red dot scope be set with a prism to be used while the gun is at waist level?

eb

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I own a Colt Sporter Match HBAR (AR-15 variant, preban) That outclasses the M-16 I was issued in the USMC in every way except the lack of select-fire. Mind you, I wouldn't use a burst option except for one or two specific circumstances out of the thousands of possible scenarios. about 99.9% of the time anything above semiauto is a waste of ammo for a MBR (Main Battle Rifle).

My next MBR investment will either be an M1 Garand, or a Benelli R1 with two uppers, one in 30-06 and one in .308

I am actually leaning towards the Benelli R1

http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/r1rifle.tpl

You can get an aftermarket detachable mag for the R1 in 30-06 that holds 10 rounds. I imagine within 18 months there will be a 15 round mag for the R1 in 30-06.

Other than the 1) battle tested status of the M1 Garand, and 2) the Benelli R1's slightly stricter requirements for cleanliness and maintenance, the R1 outclasses the M1 in every way (once you get the aftermarket high capacity magazine)

 

[Razmear]

Heres a pic I just took of my 3 SKSs, total cost for all of them was about $500.
clicking on the pic should bring ya to the full size pic.

eb

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I'm a little OCD about certain things, especially my rifles. I fully stipulate that the AK and the SKS have a good, strong, and valid place in the arsenal of a group of folks who hold the Thomas Jefferson view of the 2nd Amendment.

As for myself, however, I just couldn't bring myself to shell out my hard earned (but mostly worthless) Fed notes for a MBR that was incapable of hitting a pie plate at 500 yds.

1.5 MOA (Minutes Of Angle) is the minimum standard that I could possibly tolerate. Sub 1 MOA is where I feel comfortable with the precision of a MBR.

The AK is a 3-4 MOA gun, and the SKS ranges from a 2 to 3 MOA gun.

1 MOA = 1" per 100 yards. at 300 yards, the AK has a mechanical group between 9" and 15" at 300 yards, the SKS has a mechanical group between 6" and 9"

My Sporter is a .75 MOA gun, which at 300 yards has a mechanical group of 2.25" and at 500 yards, a mechanical group of 3.75"

As long as I can weild the skill, that AR is capable of a headshot at 500 yards. IE - I can hit a pie plate at 500 yards with it.

the SKS at it's very best end of the spectrum is 10" at 500 yards, or just BARELY within the pie-plate requirement, but at the wider end is 15" at 500 yards.

The AK, however, spreads to a 20" mechanical group or worse at 500 yards. because of my USMC influenced OCD, you couldn't pay me to own an AK.

PS - I was being very generous to the AK above. The reality of the AK-47 is probably more like a 5 to 10 MOA mechanical group. IE - 15 to 30 inches at 300 yards. (shudder)

 

[Luft97]

Pretty. Lots of drool factor

I never shot with a front pistol grip, I think that would mess me up a bit. Is the front grip of any benifit?

I like the front grip, not sure that it adds much benefit, but I think it is more comfortable to hold than the rail when firing alot of rounds

Those are nice rifles the bottom one looks alot like mine, although mine is Chineese surplus.

 

[Razmear]

Those are nice rifles the bottom one looks alot like mine, although mine is Chineese surplus.

The Norinco is Chinese surplus, so its probably the same as these 3.
I can mix and match any part from any of these 3 rifles and changing stocks or switching from fixed to detach mags takes less than 10 minutes.

eb

 

[Razmear]

the SKS at it's very best end of the spectrum is 10" at 500 yards, or just BARELY within the pie-plate requirement

At 500 yards I'd be satisfied with center mass over a pie plate.
At 100 yards I can shoot 3" groups with iron sights with the middle rifle all day.

eb

 

[GunnyFreedom]

At 500 yards I'd be satisfied with center mass over a pie plate.
At 100 yards I can shoot 3" groups with iron sights with the middle rifle all day.

eb

That's some strong shooting. I'm assuming you are shooting from a supported position. 3" at 100 yards unsupported would make some highly ranked USMC marksmanship instructors very jealous...

Of course, real world shooting is never as good as mechanical groups, and supported positions bring you closer to mechanical groups than unsupported. 3" at 100 would put you around 15" at 500 if the ammo maintains stability beyond 300. I'm thinking the middle SKS that gives you 3" at 100 is accurized? The best (non-accurized) SKS's in the world usually have a 1.5 to 2" mechanical group at 100 yards, which would put YOUR hold around 1.5 to 1 MOA. If it's not accurized, then you should compete for money.

Well, I have also heard that the ammo makes a HUGE difference with an SKS.

I figure that one must be accurized, it's maybe a 1 MOA gun, which puts your hold at 2 MOA variance - still more skill than most shooters on the planet. The standard for USMC Rifle expert is around 3.75 MOA groups, and US Army expert around 4 MOA groups. You are talking about a 3 MOA shot there above. (those standards are NOT with a benchrest, mind you - and I have no idea if you were using a benchrest or not)

With my AR, I usually get around 2.75 to 3" supported at 100 yds, around 1.5 to 1.75" on a benchrest, and about 1" clamped and sandbagged. (also on ironsights, of course). and the mechanical group on that rifle is 3/4" at 100 yards.

Looking on the stock on your middle gun, (Is that a Yugo? Yugoslavian SKSs are some of the very-most accurate ones) I can see that whether you know it or not, it is to at least some extent accurized. At the very least the play has been taken out of the stock by unitizing it.

Usually, a lot of work has to be done to an SKS to get it reliably to 3" at 100 yards. A few (especially Yugoslavian made) SKSs do show up with exceptional precision. I'd say you got lucky with that one. It was either accurized at great expense before you bought it, or it is one of those rare jewels that fit's together well enough to put it around 1 MOA mechanical precision.

 

[Razmear]

The middle one is Norinco, just like the other two.
The heavy stock does help with accuracy. Also the scope mount on the middle one is the kind you can see under so it gives me a 4 inch sight tube of sorts that helps for some reason.
Being able to hit a 3 inch target doesn't seem like a tough challenge with this rifle, I usually shoot either standing or kneeling with elbow on knee.
I've even shot skeet with this rifle with relative ease.

eb

 

[maeqFREEDOMfree]

comparing apples to oranges here man. Both guns are great in their own respect and for different reasons in my opinion