I... can't... resist....

[GunnyFreedom]

The middle one is Norinco, just like the other two.
The heavy stock does help with accuracy. Also the scope mount on the middle one is the kind you can see under so it gives me a 4 inch sight tube of sorts that helps for some reason.
Being able to hit a 3 inch target doesn't seem like a tough challenge with this rifle, I usually shoot either standing or kneeling with elbow on knee.
I've even shot skeet with this rifle with relative ease.

eb

3 MOA groups from offhand? That's enough to get you a high ranking spot on the US Olympic shooting team!

If I were you, I'd start signing up for some NRA high-power competitions. If you can drill 3 MOA groups from offhand, you could easily make better than $80k a year just from the cash prizes alone. Nevermind the paid endorsements etc. Heck, with that kind of shooting you could be clearing $200k a year between competitions, endorsements, etc.

Not kidding. 3 MOA groups from offhand is...well... I'd bet good enough for a gold medal in the olympics. If I could reliably hit 3 MOA in offhand, I'd be shooting for a living. Seriously. Look into it.

 

[Matt]

The Rock River Arms LAR-15, after being so configured, was delivered to the “trials” held by the DEA/FBI team which are simply brutal. The trial consists of two parts. The first phase should be termed, “Let’s see if we can break it” or “Is it ‘Marineproof’?” Technically, this phase determines durability and reliability. Of note, after the completion of each segment, the rifle is required to feed and fire 20 rounds from the magazine without malfunction.

As I understand it, the tests begin with a number of sample rifles from the same manufacturer being disassembled. The parts are mixed, the guns are reassembled; then they’re shot. I do not know the exact order, but, at some point, the rifle undergoes the FRISBEE® test, where a sample is thrown 15 feet to land on concrete – once on each side and starting from a height of four feet. After this, the gun, held at the same height, is dropped six different ways on the concrete.

In addition, the rifle is cooked and chilled. It’s put in a box and the temperature is raised to 120° F and lowered to -20° F. Each temperature is then held constant for an hour, after which the previously mentioned function test must be passed. The rifle also gets a saltwater and a sand test – then it is function fired again.

The second part of the test mandates that the rifle fire 5,000 rounds; again, without malfunction. Accuracy, velocity and bullet dispersion are monitored during this test and must stay within prescribed ranges. The Rock River Arms LAR-15 passed every test and Rock River was awarded a five year contract to supply both agencies.

Heh, even the crappiest WASR can do all that.

Just sayin, there's no doubt that the AK is a more inherently reliable design. I'm not bashing AR pattern rifles though, I'm thinking of getting a DPMS Panther .308 for my battle rifle. Does anyone here have experience with these? They seem like a real bargain being over $800 less than a DSA FAL.

 

[RedLightning]

AK versus AR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What's yer opinion?

Both, I have an AK that I bought for relativly low cost ammo accurate enough with stardard(30rd) capacity mags. The sights suck for precision shooting, but are great for aquiring a target fast.

I also have an SKS, which has some things I like about. It will feed any type of ammo(FMJ HP SP) and you don't need mags, just stripper clips. Where my AK, doesn't feed SP well(destroys the tip) and depending on the Hollow point hole size the AK sometimes damages it.

 

[maeqFREEDOMfree]

Both, I have an AK that I bought for relativly low cost ammo accurate enough with stardard(30rd) capacity mags. The sights suck for precision shooting, but are great for aquiring a target fast.

I also have an SKS, which has some things I like about. It will feed any type of ammo(FMJ HP SP) and you don't need mags, just stripper clips. Where my AK, doesn't feed SP well(destroys the tip) and depending on the Hollow point hole size the AK sometimes damages it.

agreed except swap the sks for a FAL. 762x54 is a devastating round and is nice for dropping things at a distance.

 

[Doktor_Jeep]

I used to shoot the AK variants exclusively. That was back in the day. I returned on leave from Europe to get one before the ban and stock up on $3 magazines. I would later get a SAR-1 to accompany my MAK-90.

But as a competition shooter and match director for IPSC 3-gun matches, I was watching the AK variants get smoked by equal shooters using ARs. From 2001 to 2007 I watched the AK guns slowly get taken out of competition and replaced by the AR. Regardless of pros and cons the accuracy and controllability of the AR won out. Those who did not go AR got into rare space guns or went into the He-Man division using M1As, Garands, and FALs. By 2006 the AK was a rare sight indeed.

And when the ammo for it got expensive - thanks to the neocons - it was no longer possible to get a case of 7.62X39 for 80 bucks. That was also the end.

I have seen the SAR-3 in .223 do very well however.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Now, while I myself am looking at acquiring an MBR in .308 or 30-06 (because of those cartridges increased anti-equipment value) I do want to make a point about the 5.56 NATO cartridge.

Historically, the original 55 grain 5.56 issued in Vietnam was pathetic and horrible underpowered. The current NATO spec 62 grain round was a little better, but anecdotal evidence from Iraq revealed that at distance it was inadequate.

So some units were issued 77 grain Black Hills Gold Match Grade JHP rounds. Apparently (again, by way of anecdotal evidence) the 77 grain rounds had terminal ballistic performance at an order of magnitude better than the issue 62 grain rounds. Where antipersonnel shots at 400 yards with the 62 grain rounds had a better than even chance of disabling an enemy combatant, apparently the 77 grain rounds were almost guaranteed to kill out beyond 500 yards.

So what I'm saying is that the known weaknesses of the 55 grain and 62 grain 5.56 NATO rounds in the area of terminal ballistic performance are certainly good reasons to look elsewhere, the simple matter of using 75 through 77 grain rounds seem to overcome those weaknesses significantly.

Therefore, the 5.56 NATO chamber is plenty sufficient for antipersonnel purposes at extreme range, but I recommend chambering at least a 75 to 77 grain round for that purpose. Anything over 77 grains is too long to fit into the magazine, though 80 and 90 grain rounds are available to single-feed, and they are effective to 1000 yards.

Another strong recommendation here, is that you will require a 1:7 twist barrel to properly stabilize a round that heavy. the NATO 62 grain round had been chosen as a round that would function in a 1:12 a 1:9 or a 1:7 barrel, though it performs best in a 1:9. If you DO get a 1:7 barrel, don't expect great performance from a 55 grain round - they over stabilize and you loose accuracy beyond 300 yards. Anything lighter than a 55 grain round from a 1:7 and the bullet will shred to confetti within about 100 yards.

 

[Dequeant]

I can't say if the same goes for an AK as I never owned one, but I wouldn't trade an SKS for an AR, unless it was to sell the AR and use the cash to get 10 more SKSs.

Granted, the AR costs about 4x as much as an SKS(now, since sks's did go up in price since i bought the two i own for $99 each).

However, you can only shoot one rifle at a time. You may have 10 SKS's, but i'd have one AR........and i would still have the advantage at every range. Not to mention, the 30 rnd duckbill mags for the sks's are extremely hard to use and very prone to jamming, whereas the AR doesn't have that problem.

 

[JRegs85]

In my opinion, the AR is a better RIFLE than the AK. When I think rifle, I think accurate from a couple hundred yards away. As we can all agree, the AR is a more accurate gun.

However, the AK is more reliable, more powerful, requires far less cleaning, etc. It depends on what you are looking for in a rifle. If I could own one rifle, it would probably be an AR, but if I could own two, it would probably be an AK and a .308/.30-06.

 

[krott5333]

skip them both and get a FAL

 

[maeqFREEDOMfree]

skip them both and get a FAL

i have a fal and an ak and like them both. i'm not gonna lie. i've shot AR 15s and they are amazing weapons. i will be adding one of those to my arsenal at some point, not that it would take the place of my ak. when it comes to reliability, it'll always be my personal choice.

 

[maeqFREEDOMfree]

can you get an AR chambered for the 762x39?

 

[jason43]

AK versus AR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What's yer opinion?

Alaska vs Arkansas?

I'd go with Alaska, eskimos are fierce fighters.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

can you get an AR chambered for the 762x39?

Not that I have seen, but the new model AR-10's in .308 are simply amazing.

Again, I want to recommend that everyone looking at a 30 cal MBR at least take a passing glance at the Benelli R1. sure the mags that come with it stock only hold 4 rounds, but you can get aftermarket mags that hold 10.

10 rounds of 30-06 in a detachable mag, fired from a semiautomatic gas-piston operated weapon with HALF the perceived recoil of an M1 Garand, and more accurate than an accurized bolt action? Yeah, maybe it never fought in a war, but it's sure worth a look. It just has STUPID amounts of accurate firepower.

Not to mention the fact that it has interchangeable multiple caliber barrels/upper receivers. Having this rifle and keeping one barrel in 30-06 and another barrel in .308, allows for it's continued usefulness in the event of ALL KINDS of battlefield ammo pickups.

That's Benelli R1

LOVE that weapon. As soon as I can afford one, it will be my first weapon purchase since 1991.

 

[maeqFREEDOMfree]

conversion kit for AR15 to shoot the 7.62x39

this is the route i'll probably go... i love this round for accuracy and availability. what do you all think?
the only reason i'd go this route and not the .308 is simply because i have a FAL shooting the 762x54 and i feel that it's sufficient for any of my long gun needs... any thoughts? suggestions? thanks in advance guys.

 

[SWATH]

I own a Colt Sporter Match HBAR (AR-15 variant, preban) That outclasses the M-16 I was issued in the USMC in every way except the lack of select-fire. Mind you, I wouldn't use a burst option except for one or two specific circumstances out of the thousands of possible scenarios. about 99.9% of the time anything above semiauto is a waste of ammo for a MBR (Main Battle Rifle).

My next MBR investment will either be an M1 Garand, or a Benelli R1 with two uppers, one in 30-06 and one in .308

I am actually leaning towards the Benelli R1

http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/r1rifle.tpl

You can get an aftermarket detachable mag for the R1 in 30-06 that holds 10 rounds. I imagine within 18 months there will be a 15 round mag for the R1 in 30-06.

Other than the 1) battle tested status of the M1 Garand, and 2) the Benelli R1's slightly stricter requirements for cleanliness and maintenance, the R1 outclasses the M1 in every way (once you get the aftermarket high capacity magazine)

Garands anyone? I happen to know of a few really nice ones for sale

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=131&t=515298

 

[tommyzDad]

AK versus AR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What's yer opinion?

Neither!

The only true choice is a phase plasma rifle in the 40 watt range.

 

[Hawk45]

Not that I have seen, but the new model AR-10's in .308 are simply amazing.

Again, I want to recommend that everyone looking at a 30 cal MBR at least take a passing glance at the Benelli R1. sure the mags that come with it stock only hold 4 rounds, but you can get aftermarket mags that hold 10.

10 rounds of 30-06 in a detachable mag, fired from a semiautomatic gas-piston operated weapon with HALF the perceived recoil of an M1 Garand, and more accurate than an accurized bolt action? Yeah, maybe it never fought in a war, but it's sure worth a look. It just has STUPID amounts of accurate firepower.

Not to mention the fact that it has interchangeable multiple caliber barrels/upper receivers. Having this rifle and keeping one barrel in 30-06 and another barrel in .308, allows for it's continued usefulness in the event of ALL KINDS of battlefield ammo pickups.

That's Benelli R1

LOVE that weapon. As soon as I can afford one, it will be my first weapon purchase since 1991.

Only problem is ANY 'sporting' rifle loses its accuracy after 10 rounds or so when fired rapid fire. While it IS a great deer rifle, it is NOT a combat weapon.

Also the 308 is 7.62x51 and NOT 7.62x54. The 7.62x54 is also a rimmed round and is impossible to be fired in a FAL. FAL is the 7.62x51 NATO round that the M-14 and CETME/H&K 91 also use.

Yes there are AR that fire the 7.62x39 AK round. One is made by Colt and takes only mags made by them for it. There is another now made that takes regular AK mags but it is not made by Colt. For what either costs you can buy 3 regular AKs though.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Only problem is ANY 'sporting' rifle loses its accuracy after 10 rounds or so when fired rapid fire. While it IS a great deer rifle, it is NOT a combat weapon.

Also the 308 is 7.62x51 and NOT 7.62x54. The 7.62x54 is also a rimmed round and is impossible to be fired in a FAL. FAL is the 7.62x51 NATO round that the M-14 and CETME/H&K 91 also use.

Yes there are AR that fire the 7.62x39 AK round. One is made by Colt and takes only mags made by them for it. There is another now made that takes regular AK mags but it is not made by Colt. For what either costs you can buy 3 regular AKs though.

I have a hard time believing that a cryogenically treated heavy barrel would suffer from the kind of temperature based variance you suggest. Do you have test data from the R1 that would back up your statement?

And my primary round for the MBR would be 30-06; the .308 barrel would be for battlefield pickups mainly.

And even though the 7.62 x 39 may be the most common round outside of CONUS, if I had to rely on finding random high powered rifle cartridges to feed my weapon INSIDE the United States, I would feel FAR more comfortable relying on finding .308

 

[GunnyFreedom]

A few of my own:

 

[wv@SC]

A few of my own:

Bulgarian Makarov???