I can't make the anarchist leap.

It's a very meaningful answer. We're talking about human society here, which has a long and rich tradition of different experiments in forms of organization. The American republic was itself a new incarnation of old ideas.

The fact that nobody can seem to point to a human society based on anarchic principles is quite good evidence that these principles may not be compatible with human nature. If anarchy is an ideal system for human society, then how come no society has ever been based upon an anarchic system, or even something approaching anarchy? As far as I can tell the anarchists are peddling some utopian fantasy that has no connection to human reality. I merely ask for some real world justification for these ideas, and I'm still waiting for an answer. It's pure vaporware at this point.

I don't at all think its possible now, but merely contend that its possible for a society to transition towards it. Say if a society were to exist under minarchy for a good period of time, were given time to economically flourish, built up traditions of private security, and tradition of courts expounding upon natural law.

Yes a greater percentage of people are needed to act morally and rationally in a anarchist society. Today we have many thuggish types, but we also have plenty of reasonable people in the gaps not making headlines. I contend that its eventually possible for the latter type of man to become more predominant. You can stick to the realm of pure human nature, by looking at examples of individuals today.
 
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It's a very meaningful answer. We're talking about human society here, which has a long and rich tradition of different experiments in forms of organization. The American republic was itself a new incarnation of old ideas.

The fact that nobody can seem to point to a human society based on anarchic principles is quite good evidence that these principles may not be compatible with human nature. If anarchy is an ideal system for human society, then how come no society has ever been based upon an anarchic system, or even something approaching anarchy? As far as I can tell the anarchists are peddling some utopian fantasy that has no connection to human reality. I merely ask for some real world justification for these ideas, and I'm still waiting for an answer. It's pure vaporware at this point.
Ok, I`ll name just one........Iceland. I`ll even produce two articles. Although its not the 100% Rothbardian approach its close and proves it can work....Hint, do some research and you will find others.:)


http://www.lewrockwell.com/chu/chu13.html
[Market Anarchism, the Solution to the Dilemma of Taiwan Independence

The Icelandic Commonwealth

Thomas Whiston is a free market economist with George Mason University. In his article, "Medieval Iceland and the Absence of Government," Whiston provides us with insights into the truly remarkable Icelandic Commonwealth political system.

The Icelandic Commonwealth or Icelandic Free State, which flourished between 930 and 1262, offers modern libertarians a well-documented, real world example of how a market anarchist political system worked in the past, and how it can work again in the future, if only we can bring ourselves to "think outside the box," if only we can disabuse ourselves of Frances Fukuyama's delusion that Western liberal democracy is the final form of human government.

The Icelandic Commonwealth was a single, unified nation with a single, overarching constitution, but a multiplicity of "competing governments," all of which had jurisdiction over the same territory.

Instead of public property, i.e., "government property," the Icelandic Commonwealth had only private property. The entire island was privately owned by one private citizen or another

As difficult as it may be for us to grasp, the Icelandic Commonwealth had no executive and no judiciary.

Instead of a judiciary, the Icelandic Commonwealth had private courts. Members of these private courts were chosen after a crime was committed. The defendant and plaintiff each had the right to pick half the arbitrators.

One of the few permanent officials was the "law speaker." His duty was to memorize the laws, recite them back, and to provide advice on legislative matters.

Instead of a king, the Icelandic Commonwealth had a multitude of chieftains. These chieftains were not regional warlords. These chieftains were not local authorities. These chieftains were leaders of de facto central governments in competition with other chieftains' central governments. Each chieftains' jurisdiction was not a part of Iceland, but all of Iceland.

These chieftains were not conventional heads of government. After all, we are talking about anarchism, and anarchism means "no government." These chieftains were heads of Private Defense Agencies.
-snip-

http://www.mises.org/story/1121
Medieval Iceland and the Absence of Government

Those who claim that government is the source of social order say that in its absence there would be violence, chaos, and a low standard of living. They cite civil wars in Africa, drug wars in South America, or even Gengis Khan in Mongolia. They claim that these things, which are actually examples of competing governments, are what life without government will produce.

Another common objection to stateless legal enforcement systems is to ask for "just one example of where it has worked."

Medieval Iceland illustrates an actual and well-documented historical example of how a stateless legal order can work and it provides insights as to how we might create a more just and efficient society today. -snip-
 
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If you can't make the leap to anarchism, that's great; anarchy is not for you.
If you want to try to force anarchism on a group of people; anarchism is not for you.

If you have found a way to coexist with other human beings without being told how to behave and what to do, and respect others ability to exist without being told how to behave or what to do, you are already an anarchist.

Anarchism is not a form of government. Don't try to make it one.
 
Every time I try to picture how the anarcho-capitalistic society would function, I see nothing in it that would prevent another state from springing up almost immediately thereafter.

If that is true then how come the states needed so long to spring up? Wouldn`t they then spring up immediatley after humans appeared on the face of the Earth? How come then just 3000 years ago Europe was stateless? How come there were stil people and territory in Europe unclaimed by any state as far as the 13th century?


Let's have a historic citation of just one, only one, successful anarchic human society.

Until then, refutation by virtue of stupidity is the only argument I need.

Are you serious? You don`t even need to go back in history for an example. Just check out the Amazonian tribes. Seriously have you never heard of tribal societies?

And no a tribe or a clan is not a state, because while there is government, subjecting to it is entirely volunatary.

But that happens when you have fools that can`t understand anarchy does not equal chaos. They see order and think it means there must be state. :rolleyes:
 
I find it incredibly confusing how someone that cannot get the concept of a voluntary society would find there way here. I'm not saying that ronpaulforums is advocating voluntarism but the Mises Institute does and that is the foundation for Ron Paul's economic platform. He [Ron Paul] has also stated that economic freedom is essential to liberty.

To the OP, listen to FAQ on the Economics of the Stateless Society and let me know what you think.

Just finished listening to it. I've heard or read a lot of this before, but there was some good information in there, and a lot of stuff I haven't heard before. The objection he mentions (and subsequently attempts to refute) that "aren't we already sort of in a state of 'anarchy' and states spring up out of that" particularly rang true to me, and I didn't think he did a very good job of addressing it. And I think there's more to be said for the objection than what he says of it.

Oh yeah, and while I'm at it, the very last answer he gave in the question-and-answer session was not at all satisfactory to me. So, society is going to ostracize someone for not consenting to submit to a private court? Yeah, right, what's the motivation exactly for McDonald's not to sell a burger to such a guy? They would not at all be motivated by any sort of far-seeing altruism. Businesses would only be concerned with business transactions. Such an individual would still get along fine in society while committing such acts and refusing to submit to any "authority."
 
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Are you serious? You don`t even need to go back in history for an example. Just check out the Amazonian tribes. Seriously have you never heard of tribal societies?

Are you saying tribal societies do not have law, or expressions of communal authority?

And no a tribe or a clan is not a state, because while there is government, subjecting to it is entirely volunatary.

Is it really? Got a citation?

But that happens when you have fools that can`t understand anarchy does not equal chaos. They see order and think it means there must be state. :rolleyes:

I'm still waiting for that single example of an anarchic human society. You mentioned amazonian tribes, but you didn't provide any evidence to support the claim that they are examples of an anarchic society. Why do you think they were anarchic?
 
Just finished listening to it. I've heard or read a lot of this before, but there was some good information in there, and a lot of stuff I haven't heard before. The objection he mentions (and subsequently attempts to refute) that "aren't we already sort of in a state of 'anarchy' and states spring up out of that" particularly rang true to me, and I didn't think he did a very good job of addressing it. And I think there's more to be said for the objection than what he says of it.

Oh yeah, and while I'm at it, the very last answer he gave in the question-and-answer session was not at all satisfactory to me. So, society is going to ostracize someone for not consenting to submit to a private court? Yeah, right, what's the motivation exactly for McDonald's not to sell a burger to such a guy? They would not at all be motivated by any sort of far-seeing altruism. Businesses would only be concerned with business transactions. Such an individual would still get along fine in society while committing such acts and refusing to submit to any "authority."
You have to remember that an Anarchist society would not be homogeneous, it would be highly discriminatory. Certain areas would be very conservative others would be very liberal, eg. An Amish community opposed to a community of hippies. As long as the cooperation was voluntary and the nonaggression principle was followed everything would be fine. For example you could have a town where everyone agreed to post a sign at the entrance "No blacks, whites, Jews or catholics. Or perhaps there would be a mutally agreed upon rule against conspiring to form a state. In which case punishment could be banishment because the threat of a state reasserting itself would always be present and mean the death of the free society. The problem most people have with the anarchist theory is their inability to think in terms other than what they have been exposed to throughout their entire lives, namely the societal order under hegemonic state rule. :)
 
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So, society is going to ostracize someone for not consenting to submit to a private court? Yeah, right, what's the motivation exactly for McDonald's not to sell a burger to such a guy? They would not at all be motivated by any sort of far-seeing altruism. Businesses would only be concerned with business transactions.

There is no need for altruism. It is precisley because of buisiness that a renegade would be ostracised. If McDonald`s did not ostracise it would quickly suffer drops in revenue as customers would start to favor Burger King over someone that serves renegades.

And that only if McDonald`s was stupid. A smart McDonald would recognise it is in their own narrow interest that renegades are ostracised, because people not recognising any rules and norms are a potential threat to them as much as to anyone else.
 
Are you saying tribal societies do not have law, or expressions of communal authority?

Of course they have law. Traditional law. And plenty of it. Anarchy is not absence of law. It is the absence of a state.

Of course there is authority. But the authority stems from prestige. The tribe elders are leaders and men of influence. They are not rulers.

They have no instruments to enforce their decisions if the rest of the tribe does not see their decisions as inheretly correct ones.

Thus they can say bannish a rapist, because most everyone will be able to see the wisdom in that and will not object.

However they can not say order the tribe move and set up at a different location in the middle of the winter, because the rest of the tribe would rightfully see them as gonne mad.


I liken a tribe to a chess club, or to an online gaming clan. They all have rules. And they have the people that run the community. But it is all voluntary. Jet there is order. Without an underlying threat of violence. That is anarchy. Absence of obligations that are underlined by force.



Is it really? Got a citation?

You can play dumb all you want, I`m not googling the internet for you to give you citations LOL. Use your mind. Can you quit a clan? You must definetly can. Will they stop you if you want to go it alone? Of course not. Can you quit a state? Can you stop paying taxes? Definetley not.
 
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An armed populace would stop another state from springing up. The biggest empires in the world have not been a match for guerrilla warfare tactics. Just like the USA could not conquer Vietnam, they will not be able to conquer an anarchist civilization.

The anarchist community would simply refuse consent. The State would simply give up the lost cause. It would cost too much. Like England in the revolutionary war against the colonials.
 
The anarchist community would simply refuse consent. The State would simply give up the lost cause. It would cost too much. Like England in the revolutionary war against the colonials.

You mean like Turkey gave up on Armenians?
 
Oh yeah, and while I'm at it, the very last answer he gave in the question-and-answer session was not at all satisfactory to me. So, society is going to ostracize someone for not consenting to submit to a private court? Yeah, right, what's the motivation exactly for McDonald's not to sell a burger to such a guy? They would not at all be motivated by any sort of far-seeing altruism. Businesses would only be concerned with business transactions. Such an individual would still get along fine in society while committing such acts and refusing to submit to any "authority."

That is a statement that a lot of people use and I agree that it's not very strong.
 
"Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves." ~David Henry Thoreau

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Do You Hate the State?

by Murray N. Rothbard


Originally published inThe Libertarian Forum, Vol. 10, No. 7, July 1977.

I have been ruminating recently on what are the crucial questions that divide libertarians. Some that have received a lot of attention in the last few years are: anarcho-capitalism vs. limited government, abolitionism vs. gradualism, natural rights vs. utilitarianism, and war vs. peace. But I have concluded that as important as these questions are, they don’t really cut to the nub of the issue, of the crucial dividing line between us.

Let us take, for example, two of the leading anarcho-capitalist works of the last few years: my own For a New Liberty and David Friedman’s Machinery of Freedom. Superficially, the major differences between them are my own stand for natural rights and for a rational libertarian law code, in contrast to Friedman’s amoralist utilitarianism and call for logrolling and trade-offs between non-libertarian private police agencies. But the difference really cuts far deeper. There runs through For a New Liberty (and most of the rest of my work as well) a deep and pervasive hatred of the State and all of its works, based on the conviction that the State is the enemy of mankind. In contrast, it is evident that David does not hate the State at all; that he has merely arrived at the conviction that anarchism and competing private police forces are a better social and economic system than any other alternative. Or, more fully, that anarchism would be better than laissez-faire which in turn is better than the current system. Amidst the entire spectrum of political alternatives, David Friedman has decided that anarcho-capitalism is superior. But superior to an existing political structure which is pretty good too. In short, there is no sign that David Friedman in any sense hates the existing American State or the State per se, hates it deep in his belly as a predatory gang of robbers, enslavers, and murderers. No, there is simply the cool conviction that anarchism would be the best of all possible worlds, but that our current set-up is pretty far up with it in desirability. For there is no sense in Friedman that the State – any State – is a predatory gang of criminals.

The same impression shines through the writing, say, of political philosopher Eric Mack. Mack is an anarcho-capitalist who believes in individual rights; but there is no sense in his writings of any passionate hatred of the State, or, a fortiori, of any sense that the State is a plundering and bestial enemy.

Perhaps the word that best defines our distinction is "radical." Radical in the sense of being in total, root-and-branch opposition to the existing political system and to the State itself. Radical in the sense of having integrated intellectual opposition to the State with a gut hatred of its pervasive and organized system of crime and injustice. Radical in the sense of a deep commitment to the spirit of liberty and anti-statism that integrates reason and emotion, heart and soul.

Furthermore, in contrast to what seems to be true nowadays, you don’t have to be an anarchist to be radical in our sense, just as you can be an anarchist while missing the radical spark. I can think of hardly a single limited governmentalist of the present day who is radical – a truly amazing phenomenon, when we think of our classical liberal forbears who were genuinely radical, who hated statism and the States of their day with a beautifully integrated passion: the Levellers, Patrick Henry, Tom Paine, Joseph Priestley, the Jacksonians, Richard Cobden, and on and on, a veritable roll call of the greats of the past. Tom Paine’s radical hatred of the State and statism was and is far more important to the cause of liberty than the fact that he never crossed the divide between laissez-faire and anarchism.

And closer to our own day, such early influences on me as Albert Jay Nock, H. L. Mencken, and Frank Chodorov were magnificently and superbly radical. Hatred of "Our Enemy, the State" (Nock’s title) and all of its works shone through all of their writings like a beacon star. So what if they never quite made it all the way to explicit anarchism? Far better one Albert Nock than a hundred anarcho-capitalists who are all too comfortable with the existing status quo.

Where are the Paines and Cobdens and Nocks of today? Why are almost all of our laissez-faire limited governmentalists plonky conservatives and patriots? If the opposite of "radical" is "conservative," where are our radical laissez-fairists? If our limited statists were truly radical, there would be virtually no splits between us. What divides the movement now, the true division, is not anarchist vs. minarchist, but radical vs. conservative. Lord, give us radicals, be they anarchists or no.

To carry our analysis further, radical anti-statists are extremely valuable even if they could scarcely be considered libertarians in any comprehensive sense. Thus, many people admire the work of columnists Mike Royko and Nick von Hoffman because they consider these men libertarian sympathizers and fellow-travelers. That they are, but this does not begin to comprehend their true importance. For throughout the writings of Royko and von Hoffman, as inconsistent as they undoubtedly are, there runs an all-pervasive hatred of the State, of all politicians, bureaucrats, and their clients which, in its genuine radicalism, is far truer to the underlying spirit of liberty than someone who will coolly go along with the letter of every syllogism and every lemma down to the "model" of competing courts.

Taking the concept of radical vs. conservative in our new sense, let us analyze the now famous "abolitionism" vs. "gradualism" debate. The latter jab comes in the August issue of Reason (a magazine every fiber of whose being exudes "conservatism"), in which editor Bob Poole asks Milton Friedman where he stands on this debate. Freidman takes the opportunity of denouncing the "intellectual cowardice" of failing to set forth "feasible" methods of getting "from here to there." Poole and Friedman have between them managed to obfuscate the true issues. There is not a single abolitionist who would not grab a feasible method, or a gradual gain, if it came his way. The difference is that the abolitionist always holds high the banner of his ultimate goal, never hides his basic principles, and wishes to get to his goal as fast as humanly possible. Hence, while the abolitionist will accept a gradual step in the right direction if that is all that he can achieve, he always accepts it grudgingly, as merely a first step toward a goal which he always keeps blazingly clear. The abolitionist is a "button pusher" who would blister his thumb pushing a button that would abolish the State immediately, if such a button existed. But the abolitionist also knows that alas, such a button does not exist, and that he will take a bit of the loaf if necessary – while always preferring the whole loaf if he can achieve it.

It should be noted here that many of Milton’s most famous "gradual" programs such as the voucher plan, the negative income tax, the withholding tax, fiat paper money – are gradual (or even not so gradual) steps in the wrong direction, away from liberty, and hence the militance of much libertarian opposition to these schemes.

His button-pushing position stems from the abolitionist’s deep and abiding hatred of the State and its vast engine of crime and oppression. With such an integrated world-view, the radical libertarian could never dream of confronting either a magic button or any real-life problem with some arid cost-benefit calculation. He knows that the State must be diminished as fast and as completely as possible. Period.

And that is why the radical libertarian is not only an abolitionist, but also refuses to think in such terms as a Four Year Plan for some sort of stately and measured procedure for reducing the State. The radical – whether he be anarchist or laissez-faire – cannot think in such terms as, e.g.: Well, the first year, we’ll cut the income tax by 2%, abolish the ICC, and cut the minimum wage; the second year we’ll abolish the minimum wage, cut the income tax by another 2%, and reduce welfare payments by 3%, etc. The radical cannot think in such terms, because the radical regards the State as our mortal enemy, which must be hacked away at wherever and whenever we can. To the radical libertarian, we must take any and every opportunity to chop away at the State, whether it’s to reduce or abolish a tax, a budget appropriation, or a regulatory power. And the radical libertarian is insatiable in this appetite until the State has been abolished, or – for minarchists – dwindled down to a tiny, laissez-faire role.

Many people have wondered: Why should there be any important political disputes between anarcho-capitalists and minarchists now? In this world of statism, where there is so much common ground, why can’t the two groups work in complete harmony until we shall have reached a Cobdenite world, after which we can air our disagreements? Why quarrel over courts, etc. now? The answer to this excellent question is that we could and would march hand-in-hand in this way if the minarchists were radicals, as they were from the birth of classical liberalism down to the 1940s. Give us back the antistatist radicals, and harmony would indeed reign triumphant within the movement.

Murray N. Rothbard (1926–1995) was the author of Man, Economy, and State, Conceived in Liberty, What Has Government Done to Our Money, For a New Liberty, The Case Against the Fed, and many other books and articles/www.mises.org/mnrbib.asp>. He was also the editor – with Lew Rockwell – of The Rothbard-Rockwell Report, and academic vice president of the Ludwig von Mises Institute.


http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard75.html
 
By anarchist, I mean simply the absence of the state. For those of you who get hung up on terms, I of course mean market anarchism or "anarcho-capitalism."

So, like the title says, I can't make the leap from minarchy to anarchy, or from limited government to no government at all.

Every time I try to picture how the anarcho-capitalistic society would function, I see nothing in it that would prevent another state from springing up almost immediately thereafter.

In this article, N. Stephan Kinsella holds that to be an anarcho-capitalist is not to believe in something that "works," but merely to hold an ethical view that force is never justified.

I think the idea of an absolute ethical view is good, and I may even believe that there are such things that can be determined, but if it doesn't work, then what good is it? Isn't an idea's utility the ultimate judge of its correctness? If your absolute ethical system yields a social framework that has not ever and will not ever work, since force-wielding states always spring up to fill the absence thereof, then perhaps your absolute ethical system needs to be refined.

Tell me where I'm wrong. (And I say that with all sincerity. I'd prefer to be wrong on this one.)


You're right. What makes something good is that it works. Drinking poison is not good, for no other reason than it kills you. Capitalism is good because it provides prosperity. Communism is bad because it brings poverty. Consequences are the ultimate consideration for determine what is good or bad.

And I agree with you that anarcho-capitalism would not work, as far as in providing a long-lasting stable society of relative freedom. Anarcho-capitalists tend to believe that "initiation of force" is always wrong, and that's why they're anarcho-capitalists. I contend that it's neither right or wrong intrinsically. I think freedom can only be maximized, and it requires some initiation of force. Initiation of force just has to be minimized.
 
If that's your reasoning I suppose you can't be a minarchist either, because big government will always spring up to take its place.

No, because big government would come a lot slower. The key is just to set up whatever system allows as much freedom to exist for as long as possible.
 
No, because big government would come a lot slower. The key is just to set up whatever system allows as much freedom to exist for as long as possible.
Really? Anarchist Iceland lasted over 300 years, in contrast the founders "limited government" did not last a generation. :)
 
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