Huckleberry Proposes 23% Sales Tax Hey THANKS MIKE !

[DRV45N05]

doesn't the fairtax not only get rid of the income tax, but a ton of other taxes aswell? I recall RP saying he would support it since it's better than what we have now, or am I mistaken?

He's said he could "live with it," not that he supports it. He's refused to endorse the Fair Tax.

 

[LibertyRevolution]

As I understand it the fair tax comsumption tax would inculde a prebate check you recive every month to cover the taxes on your basic needs. so that the poor pay no tax, and the middle class doesnt pay tax on necessities, only on want items. Atleast thats how the fair tax book makes it sound.

 

[icon124]

wow.....

 

[ThePieSwindler]

I used to sort of like the idea of a fair tax - a decent "compromise", because although spending wont be cut, itll be alot easier to build wealth, then of course, a massive grey market of craigslist, vaunted tag sales, street vendors, etc, will grow, and undoubtedly the government will do all it can to fight it, so there will probably end up being some way they enforce taxation on "grey market" transactions - perhaps a "war on craigslist" type deal. You know thats going happen if the bureaucrats lose billions in revenue from this market that would emerge.

I dont like it at all now, from an economics standpoint, a philosophical standpoint, and a spending standpoint (it allows to government to keep growing and doesnt FORCE a spending cut).

Actually, the idea of a green tax, if implemented so it didnt cause weaker investment and mismanagement like many green laws today do, would probably be a fine idea. I prefer no taxes at all, but thats never going to happen, so a PROPERLY IMPLEMENTED green tax that DOES NOT 1) significantly ramp up costs for businesses with stringent and absurd requirements and thus 2) does not cause them to externalize by raising prices significantly, i'd be quite alright with this sort of tax. Eliminate payroll/corporate taxes, replace with a green tax. So long as it doesnt hinder production and capital investment, i'm all for this idea. Getting rid of the income tax is nice, but property taxes, capital gains taxes, etc, should be abolished as well, and tariffs as low as possible, but its impossible to cut spending 75-80%, anytime in the next half century, so itd NEED to be replaced with something. A green tax that doesnt really hinder production in any way would be the least harmless tax with the most potential benefit.

Then again, as far as preserving natural resources and not wasting them, capitalism is easily the best system for such, as efficient use of resources and conservation is what keeps profit going steady. I'm not sure exactly what sort of green tax would be a good balance between keeping businesses extremely profitable (which benefits consumer and employees of all companies far more than it does the higher ups of the companies) and somewhat "green". Anything but carbon dioxide emissions, though, please!

Also, to clear up a little confusion - the 23% rate is tax-inclusive, meaning 23 out of every 100 dollars goes to the government. What this ACTUALLY means, using a tax-exclusive calculation, is that an item that is $77 (100 - 23), is taxed ~30%, as 77 * 1.30 ~= 100.

 

[jj111]

doesn't the fairtax not only get rid of the income tax, but a ton of other taxes aswell? I recall RP saying he would support it since it's better than what we have now, or am I mistaken?

Ron Paul said he would RELUCTANTLY support the Fair Tax as an alternative to the income tax, but that they are both evil and that the real problem is government spending, which the Fair Tax does not address at all.

 

[abbgt1]

Fair Tax is good if we have to replace revenue from loss of Income Tax

I happen to agree with Ron Paul that income taxes and national sales taxes are unnessecary as long as we scaled back the Fed Gov't to it's size of 10 years ago (which Ron had his facts ready on that on Meet the Press).

However, the 23% national sales tax would not increase taxes on you & I at all. If we have to replace the Income Tax, this IS the way to go. The prebate check would take significantly less buearacracy to maintain than the current system.

The Fair Tax would save me on my taxes I'm certain. It won't inflate the real cost of the cost of goods (because corporations wouldn't be taxed on their income which is included in the cost of goods already today).

Read the book...it's a quick read and makes sense.

 

[FireofLiberty]

Yeah, I actually support The Fair Tax, although I prefer Ron's idea of abolishing the IRS and income tax and replacing it with nothing. The Fair Tax would abolish the IRS along with the federal personal, estate, gift, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, self-employment, and corporate taxes. It would also include a monthly prebate equivalent to the Fair Tax paid on essential goods and services.

People would actually have control over how much they're taxed. Currently, people don't. The more they work the more they're taxed. The only way to avoid it is to not work and obviously that's a bad idea.

 

[Fyretrohl]

I am curious why a 30% tax <Sorry, I don't do the fuzzy math they try to get away with in the Fair Tax. They calculate the tax like it is a DISCOUNT. That is backwards. When I pay $1.30 for an item that should cost $1.00, that is a 30% tax. Instead, they say that .30 is 27% of 1.30.>...

Anyway, why would a 30% tax on EVERYTHING I spend money on be better than what we have now or not cost me more? You will now have to pay taxes on:

1 - Food
2 - Utilities
3 - Federal Taxes on a home purchase
4 - Federal Taxes on every doctors visit
5 - Federal Taxes on every car repair
6 - Federal Taxes on every prescription <Way to go. Hit the Medicaid people to get the money back from that program.>
7 - Federal Taxes to use a toll road

In essence, every time you hand money over for anything, the recipient will be required to collect your taxes. Everyone just became a tax agent. Guess what...All you 'contract' workers...You will now be forced to charge tax. Everyone in the US just became a tax collector...Congrats and welcome to the NEW and Improved system.

Also, the Fair Tax bill does NOT eliminate the Income Tax. That would require an Amendment to the Constitution. So, it is very possible and likely that you will end up with BOTH taxes and be paying nearly 50% on all items. Unless they make the Fair Tax an amendment itself and have the verbage to repeal the income tax...

 

[Anthony T]

I don't see this happening.

 

[FireofLiberty]

I am curious why a 30% tax <Sorry, I don't do the fuzzy math they try to get away with in the Fair Tax. They calculate the tax like it is a DISCOUNT. That is backwards. When I pay $1.30 for an item that should cost $1.00, that is a 30% tax. Instead, they say that .30 is 27% of 1.30.>...

Anyway, why would a 30% tax on EVERYTHING I spend money on be better than what we have now or not cost me more? You will now have to pay taxes on:

1 - Food
2 - Utilities
3 - Federal Taxes on a home purchase
4 - Federal Taxes on every doctors visit
5 - Federal Taxes on every car repair
6 - Federal Taxes on every prescription <Way to go. Hit the Medicaid people to get the money back from that program.>
7 - Federal Taxes to use a toll road

In essence, every time you hand money over for anything, the recipient will be required to collect your taxes. Everyone just became a tax agent. Guess what...All you 'contract' workers...You will now be forced to charge tax. Everyone in the US just became a tax collector...Congrats and welcome to the NEW and Improved system.

Also, the Fair Tax bill does NOT eliminate the Income Tax. That would require an Amendment to the Constitution. So, it is very possible and likely that you will end up with BOTH taxes and be paying nearly 50% on all items. Unless they make the Fair Tax an amendment itself and have the verbage to repeal the income tax...

That's wrong. The Fair Tax does eliminate the income tax and the IRS. What you mean to say is it doesn't put the steak through the heart that would prevent the income tax from coming back that abolishing the 16th would. The 16th amendment doesn't in and of itself create an income tax, it simply allows for one.

And once again, the things you mention like food, utilities, health care, etc. are considered essential goods and services and therefore are included in the calculation of the monthly prebate you would receive under The Fair Tax.

 

[FireofLiberty]

I don't see this happening.

It has more of a chance happening than simply abolishing the IRS and income tax and replacing it with nothing like Ron wants to do (and I would like to do as well). Sad, but true. There's actually quite a bit of support for The Fair Tax in Congress.

 

[slamhead]

Insane...and the fact that he is mentioning abolishing the IRS now is because he is afraid of Ron Paul but on the same note he wants to pander to the enslaved who are worried their gravy train will dry up. These guys are so predictable and transparent.

 

[slamhead]

spending first then abolish the IRS so people can see we can make it without the income tax. Or goal is no tax on wages...but lets just get him elected first.

 

[S3eker]

He's not going to win anyways. So this is moot

 

[atthegates]

He's not going to win anyways. So this is moot

yeah i agree, i dont think he's half the threat that the establishment/status quo republicans and media are, the kristol and podhoretz types that are advising giuliani - these neocon fools are the real threat we're going to have to face

 

[ThePieSwindler]

I am curious why a 30% tax <Sorry, I don't do the fuzzy math they try to get away with in the Fair Tax. They calculate the tax like it is a DISCOUNT. That is backwards. When I pay $1.30 for an item that should cost $1.00, that is a 30% tax. Instead, they say that .30 is 27% of 1.30.>...

Erm sort of. The "fuzzy math" is really just the difference between counting it as tax-inclusive(23%) and tax-exclusive(30%). For those that dont know (not necessarily you, just anyone reading), tax inclusive means the tax is already embedded in the final total, whereas tax exclusive is where youhave a subtotal, a tax, and a final total - what we are usually used to. In the latter sense, it is really a 30% tax, with some proposals as high as 34%.

Another downside to the fair tax is that the prebate system acts as a sort of income redistribution - heres a little clip on the matter:

The FairTax is progressive. What could possibly be fair about a progressive tax where some people have to pay a higher percentage than others merely because they are deemed to be "rich"? How is the FairTax progressive? I thought it was a flat 23 percent on all new goods and services? It is and it isn't. Under the FairTax plan, everyone pays the 23 percent tax on everything, but "every household receives a rebate that is equal to the FairTax paid on essential goods and services." The rebate is given out each month, and is based on family size and the poverty level. But like the current tax code, the FairTax can also function as a tool for income redistribution because "the poor [will] actually pay less than zero-percent retail sales tax on their spending. Much like with the earned income tax credit of today, the rebate may give them more money than they actually spend on retail taxes."

tax-inclusive prices might not rise, but it could easily be implemented in ways that tax more than just end-user consumption, in the form of a VAT, or value-added tax, a popular favorite in europe and canada:

This will happen because such a large tax will generate a black market in goods to avoid the added tax. Politicians will find it in their self-interest to transform the FairTax into a tax at various stages of production – a VAT. This same process developed after the income tax was instituted – withholding was created in part to mask the actual level of taxation.

I will say, while i do like that the fair tax gets rid of some other terrible taxes - capital gains for one, it has many, many flaws. The "hidden tax" that is externalized by businesses to compensate for corporate income taxes is around 22% according to the fair tax book, whereas the fairtax is 30% tax exclusive, thus prices will indeed rise, theoretically around 8% to the consumer. The prebate system essentially seals the fair tax as a progressive tax, and the tax in no way solves the problem of government spending. It allows for more wealth creation, yes, and that is good, and why it is indeed preferable to the current system (so long as the 16th is repealed as well - the fair tax does not actually do this, it just gets rid of the IRS). But it also allows perfectly for government to continue along its statist path, which is the biggest issue with any form of tax that does not go toward public utilities - it is siphoned off by big government.

What bothers me is not so much the fairtax itself (other than for the stated reasons), but the hoardes of fairtax acolytes who will rush in an instant to discredit and attack anyone that brings up any sort of criticism.

 

[pacelli]

Huckabee is a monster.

He supports the "war on drugs", supports the "war in Iraq", supports the NAU and illegal immigration (he is being advised by CFR representatives), and does not care about reducing the size of the federal government!

With his record on taxing and spending we would end up with the income tax AND a 23% national sales tax!

Its not only CFR representatives, it is Haass himself, the president of the CFR since 2003.

 

[Johncjackson]

A lot of libertarians ( which includes a lot of supporters of Ron Paul) and anti-IRS people have supported the "FairTax" for years- I guess until Huckabee started running.

The idea behind it includes abolishing the IRS and getting rid of all Fed income taxes and FICA. The prebate would eliminate the sales tax on a huge portion of spending.

I think there ARE a lot of problems with it, but try to keep it in perspective.

 

[thatnerdyguy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_tax

...

 

[bobmurph]

Also, to clear up a little confusion - the 23% rate is tax-inclusive, meaning 23 out of every 100 dollars goes to the government. What this ACTUALLY means, using a tax-exclusive calculation, is that an item that is $77 (100 - 23), is taxed ~30%, as 77 * 1.30 ~= 100.

Yes. Fair tax is 30%...the 23% rate is a marketing sham, gimmick, or outright lie IMO. There is a lot of misunderstanding of the fairtax...the 23% rate is probably the biggest.

I still think the Fairtax is better than the current income tax, but Ron Paul's plan is much better. I applaud Huckabee in a way for having the guts to support the fairtax. I believe most other Republicans understand it is better than the current tax code, but don't support it for the fact that it is highly misunderstood and the public can easily be misled about its effect and intentions.