The thing is, I can't donate money to the government because it's taking enough from me already.
I am saying the correct way for you to support these programs, if you believe they are worthwhile, is to fight to stop the government from taking our money forcibly, then support it yourself voluntarily.
Suppose the local mob boss was sending thugs to our doors demanding money, money which he then used to, say, fund his brother who was researching cancer treatments. If I support the work of his brother, the right thing for me to do is not to support continued thug muggings, but rather, to try to stop the thugs, and voluntarily send my own money to support the cancer research.
This is because, while I might support the research, I recognize your right to have different priorities than I do.
I think you're all assuming I'm a statist and I support extravagant military budgets---ironic since you're the ones saying we cannot assume anything. Remember I'm a member of Ron Paul Forums and am not trolling, so I'd hope that at least would speak for something. I am for limited government, and was only curious as to how the private industry would or even could perform such things as space travel without precedent technology provided by the government.
Sure, that's a legit question. I think that space travel is probably not worth as much as we put into it. That said, there is a great amount of space research that could be funded cooperatively by universities and research institutions. In addition, there are industrial purposes for space technology -- like satellites. Wealthy people would pay for tourism.
In addition, if enough people are interested in space research and science, it could be funded by charities. I know I'd kick in 10 bucks for a cool new space telescope -- all we need is 1/10 of the country agreeing with me, and it'd be funded. Actually, if things were done more efficiently, it could probably happen for a lot cheaper than that.
I do think your name is unfortunate
I think if we didn't have space travel via government, the private sector would never have developed similar means to do a very limited exploration today. In fact, I would doubt any of us in our lifetime would see privatized space travel--which is the distant future (you think humans will be landlocked on this planet forever?) --if we had no government mandating NASA.
Sure. The problem is, we can't see what the alternative would be, if these brains and resources were doing other research. Suppose cancer would be cured -- this is not unrealistic, I know how smart and capable people at NASA are. Are you willing to give up the cure for cancer to have a few space technologies and missions we wouldn't otherwise have? Suppose that alternative fuel would be developed -- it would be cheap and environmentally friendly, and we wouldn't need to import more oil. But we don't have this, because these engineering minds were instead working on spacecraft. Perhaps we would have cheap water desalinization or purification, which would have saved millions by forever solving droughts and water borne illness.
These minds would be working, the only difference is, they'd be working on what people express a need for, rather than what the government tells them to.
Think about what you would give money to. For me, space technology is cool, but feeding the poor is more important, and I would give more to fund those efforts. If most are like me, I think that tells us what is more important to people. I might invest in a company researching new technologies, like advanced photovoltaics, because I recognize the huge potential such a technology could have. Thus, resources are allocated towards solving the most important human problems, and it is done freely, not funded by force and violence.
I would gladly donate money if we didn't have an income tax for space travel. The problem is now the level of space travel seems negligible so I probably wouldn't pour my money into the project unless we were going to Mars or doing something more productive than casual explorations of space.
Great. That means that once we get rid of the income tax, assuming most people agree with you, we'll have a space program that more closely matches what people want, namely Mars exploration, or more targeted, productive things.
Can I expect you to fund the project? No I cannot, so go ahead and move to Liechtenstein where you'll have a utopian tax haven.
You got the first part of that right, you can't. Why do I have to move to Liechtenstein to avoid thugs that wish to take my money by force? Is that just? And there are thugs, and taxes, in Lichtenstein as well. This, "we own the country, we have a right to your life and your property if you live here, move away if you don't like it" argument is total B.S. It's about as valid as the justification from the highway robber that "this bridge and road are my domain for robbery, and if you don't like it, take the long way 'round".
Furthermore, there's no place to move. Everyplace on earth has people in the business of taking the fruit of your labor by force. Every highway and bridge has a robber proclaiming ownership. You do not own this country, nor the people who live on it, nor the things they produce. Stop pretending that you do.
I have no problem with taxation as neither did the Founders. Sorry, but I'll support Jeffersonian policies before I'll adhere to Rothbardian theories of anarchism.
You like Jefferson, eh? Howbout this:
“To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.”
- Thomas Jefferson
Or,
"A wise and frugal government which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."
-Thomas Jefferson
Or,
"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare but only those specifically enumerated."
-- Thomas Jefferson
The founders supported tariffs, which make a lot more sense -- at least people within the country are free. They certainly never intended something as outrageous as the income tax.
No Founders that I knew of supported anarchy. Wasn't it Thomas Paine, perhaps one of the more radical of the revolutionaries, who said Government was a "necessary evil"?? So I guess if you believe Rothbard is brighter than Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams, James Madison, and Thomas Paine, then I'm sorry I wasted my time replying.
How about we use our own brains, mmmkay? I've got no problem with government. I would definitely voluntarily give some money to the government for police protection, national security, courts, etc. However, I think there should be an option for those who wish to opt out. That way we do not run our government by thuggery.
Oh, and by the way, Thomas Paine said government at its BEST was a necessary evil, and at its worst an intolerable one. I'll let you judge which we have now. Here are a couple more quotes of his, since you like him so much:
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute."
Thomas Paine
We still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping at the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised to furnish new pretenses for revenue and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without a tribute.”
- Thomas Paine
"What at first was plunder assumed the softer name of revenue."
Thomas Paine (regarding taxation)
And Ben Franklin:
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
- Benjamin Franklin
"Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature."
- Benjamin Franklin
George Washington:
"It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it."
- George Washington
"Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth."
- George Washington
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence — it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
-George Washington
John Adams:
There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.
-John Adams
Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people.
-John Adams
James Madison:
"[T]he powers of the federal government are enumerated; it can only operate in certain cases; it has legislative powers on defined and limited objects, beyond which it cannot extend its
jurisdiction.”
- James Madison
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution
which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."
- James Madison
A couple extras I like:
"The sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection."
- John Stuart Mill
"I will not go into an argument to prove that Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member on this floor knows it. We have the right, as individuals, to give away as much of our own money as we please in charity; but as members of Congress we have no right to appropriate a dollar of the public money."
- Colonel David Crockett
It's because we live in a world where government must exist (Move to Somalia if anarchism is the way--last week over 1,000 people watched a 13 year old teenager get stoned to death because she was raped and that was considered adultery--there's your utopia of anarchism) that we must pay taxes. If government is not to exist, as I mentioned earlier, then fly to Somalia--oh wait you can't because the warlords there, which are nothing more than private individuals existing in an anarchy state, have threatened to shoot down any and all aircraft flying into the airports of Somalia. So you go find a way to get there, live there for a day if you could even avoid being shot at, and tell me how your opinion of Government changes.
I already said I'm not anarchist. And, if you are capable of thinking honestly for one moment, you'll realize it is a ridiculous argument to take one example of a heinous act in an example of a country which has only a weak government precisely because it has descended into violence, and proclaim it as the inevitable result of anarchy. I would actually have a better argument were I to say, "go to Nazi Germany circa 1942 if you want to see your utopia of 'government'".
I think we can be more adult than this. If you honestly believe that stoning 13 year old rape victims is the inevitable result of voluntary government, please give rational arguments in support of your view.
Yours is a ridiculous false dichotomy: "I must send my thugs to force you to pay taxes, or we will become somalia, and stone 13 year old rape victims". Does this work on anyone?
If government is to exist, then it is the fate of us all that we pay some sort of taxes to fund it even if we disagree with a certain policy that others advocate. That is why you elect representatives that believe in your beliefs. Even Ron Paul mentioned this point when debating Huckabee.
Yeah, no. We can support those programs we wish to see implemented. I for one will pay for police protection, courts, and national defense, assuming they do a decent job. Why should I be forced to pay for NASA, for example, especially since it's found nowhere in the constitution? If a program can't get adequate funding voluntarily, it's probably not worth having.
I would be much more happy with the tack the founders took -- tariffs wouldn't be so bad, and wouldn't be such an affront to liberty. The income tax is an outrage.
I think many of you are lost. This is Ron Paul Forums. Perhaps you didn't take notice that he was running to re-instate the Constitution as being a document to be respected and followed. Many of you are advocating no taxation as it would support policies you don't. How is government to exist on a national level to provide for the provisions of the Constitution if we cannot tax??
The constitution would be much, much, much better than what we have now. I can think for myself, so yes, there are certain points I probably disagree with Paul on. I certainly support his efforts, however, and think he is far and away our best option for leadership in this country. I can get behind a man I agree with 99%, especially when the rest of the country seems to intend to kill liberty all together.
I for one would be happy to opt into a government which follows the constitution, and would voluntarily pay my share to fund it. I just don't want to send thugs to your door to force you to pay for it. Is that really extreme? Because it just seems like basic decency to me.
Must you agree with everything for it to be a valid tax?? Funny and ironic...this is called "Groupthink" if I remember correctly. We only have policies everyone agrees with--good luck finding a country or government where that could happen.
Nope, no need for 100% agreement, we have whatever programs enough people are willing to pay for. If I dislike FEMA, but there are a bunch of other people willing to help fund it, it's gonna happen.
So you're advocating anarchy, which is just as retarded as advocating universal health care.
Translation: So! You're advocating people being free from my thugs showing up to demand money on a regular basis, lest they be thrown in a cage! That's just as retarded as advocating I beat more people up and demand more money!
Again, move away from the theoretical models of Rothbard and Rockwell, and move to Somalia for a day. Tell me the fruits of anarchy. Tell me the evils of Government.
Move to North Korea or Hitler's Germany for a day. Tell me the fruits of government by force. Tell me the evils of freedom.
Or we could have an actual logical discussion instead of one based on absurd, sensationalist examples.