How does libertarianism and free markets address offshoring of jobs?

armand61685

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This is one of the biggest argument that "fair-market" people and protectionists use. They say outsourcing is a product of too much freedom given to private entities do debase the american workforce. What do you guys think? comments?
 
Devaluation of our currency versus their domestic currency and due to the anti-competitive nature of excessive regulation and anti-competitiveness of managed trade (called "free" trade with the same tongue in cheek as "Patriot" act) and the systematic intentional destruction of our manufacturing base.
 
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Since the State doesn't (shouldn't) own property in an ideal situation, they should have NO authority over how a business practices. We need to stop looking at it collectively and finding scapegoats. A business needs to decide how it can achieve maximum profit efficiency. If that entails the outsourcing of jobs, so be it.
 
Here's a decent article over at Mises:

http://www.mises.org/article.aspx?Id=1385

Jobs Overseas? Another Attempt to Explain
Posted on 11/27/2003

The Bush administration has slapped high duties on Chinese TV sets for the alleged problem of "dumping"—which increasingly means selling at prices lower than sets sold by established firms.

Let's leave the issue of dumping for now and examine the claim that jobs are being shipped overseas, which is usually what is said when great foreign products appear in US stores. A number of people have observed that TVs are no longer made in the US. The implication is that at least the Bush administration recognizes a problem. The jobs that used to go into making TVs have effectively been shipped overseas. Why not act?

International economic historian Sudha Shenoy (University of Newcastle) has been at the offices of the Mises Institute, and this topic has come up quite often. She has found herself astounded at the lack of knowledge over trade issues in the US, and alarmed by growing protectionist sentiment. I'll offer a response to the above in a manner that follows a number of points that she has been making about trade.

Let's first watch our language. Jobs are not being shipped, and Americans are not somehow being stopped from making TVs. TVs can still be made in the US. Everyone and anyone is free to invest the money, hire the workers (bidding them away from other pursuits), buy the parts, build the sets, and put them on sale. That the same processes are undertaken in China has no bearing on anyone's freedom to do it here. If you want to make an all-American TV, no one is stopping you.

And yet, as with any other product, the US TV maker must still face the issue of persuading people to buy. The question comes down to the price people are willing to pay for your TV sets versus the prices charged by the competition. To try to sell them at a price that justifies your investment and worker salaries means they would sit on the shelves unsold because the same product or better is available at a cheaper price. You will have to lower your price to sell them, and will end up selling at a loss.

Now, you are free to continue to make losses, or produce TV sets that nobody buys, employing workers and dumping capital into the project, but you must eventually come to terms with the fact that you are not going to make a profit. That you are unique in choosing an economically unviable path would not be surprising. Investors are not so stupid that they continue to pour scarce resources into production (which is always and everywhere directed toward the final end of consumption) that makes no sense.

Now, is it a problem that American consumers (and businesses that import and sell TVs retail) have access to lower priced TVs than can be made in the US? Not at all. It is great for the buyers of TVs and it is great for the economy in general because this frees up capital and labor to be employed in better projects. To force the situation to be otherwise would imply sheer waste: deliberately raising the price of TVs by restricting supply or taxing non-US TVs. This is precisely the Bush administration policy, and it accomplishes nothing but destruction. It is only putting off the inevitable and taxing people in the process.

Then we come to the question of why it is possible to make TVs more cheaply in China than the US. It is a matter of the widening circles of the division of labor. China finds itself in a stage of economic development that allows it to specialize more and more in manufacturing at the expense of agriculture, even as the less developed nations are specializing more and more in agriculture. While this is taking place, more advanced nations are finding it economically advantageous to specialize in the production of goods and services that require more advanced labor skills and more capital expense.

In short, China (as well as South Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia, and many other booming economies) is finding itself in the position that the US was in the early 20th century, while the less developed nations are taking on tasks that used to be performed by the US in the early 19th century. It is globalism of economic processes that account for why the world, and not just the single nation, is the relevant domain to consider in understanding this.

These long-term trends of economic development are part of the blessing given to the world by the free mobility of capital. And so long as markets are free, they are also perfectly capable of adjusting. It is not only good for people around the world that prosperity is rising and the division of labor is expanding; it is good for the US. To wall ourselves off does nothing but subsidize waste.

What about workers who lack the job skills to fit into the higher and higher levels of sophisticated production in which the US is specializing? Because of the existence of scarcity, there will never be a shortage of jobs to do, so long as we live in time and not eternal bliss. The phrase "shortage of jobs" can only be colloquial; there is never a shortage of things to do. It is only a question of price, and the best way to raise the wages is to make sure that people do what they are most suited to do—which can only be known by letting markets work.

High-level production such as the US specializes in refers not to every job but only the dominant industries; within each there also exists a sophisticated division of labor. Not every employee at Microsoft designs software; the firm also provides jobs to packers, shippers, artists, gardeners, and a thousand other professions. Not every employee of the financial industry is a bond trader; rather, a profitable bond business provides jobs to ever widening circles of employment.

Now, some people have been drawing attention to the supposed uniqueness of the current moment in international trade, in the following sense. US companies are not just foregoing certain production processes in order to allow them to be done by the Chinese. Instead, US firms are moving their plants to China, not to sell to the Chinese, but in order to re-import their products into the US to sell.

Is this a uniquely troubling situation? Again, not at all. US business owners have observed a profit opportunity and seized it. The alternative is that US business not notice the opportunity and let others get there first. This would hardly be something to celebrate. It is a testament to the acumen of US businessmen that they can go anywhere in the world, take advantage of local economic conditions and then sell to anyone else in the world. It so happens that American consumers are in a great position to buy the best products from everywhere in the world (so long as their government lets them). Thus do we see the end result of American capital producing for Americans in countries especially suited to host the process, while the US itself hosts ever more sophisticated production.

In the Winter 2003 issue of the Austrian Economics Newsletter, due out soon, Professor Shenoy discusses how the US is just now coming to terms with the long-run trend toward greater levels of development around the world, and why the US had better get used to it and make the adjustment. The Bush administration has done its best to slow down economic development via tariffs and every other manner of protectionism. But this is only delaying the inevitable.

There is no surfeit of wonderful trends in our time, but the progress being made through global trade (progress at home and abroad) is certainly one of them. Leave it to government to try to rob us of the blessings of prosperity and peace that come from trade. And it is no different with trade than with every other area of life. We can permit the market to work or we can hobble it with taxes as it eventually gets its way in the long run. That is our choice. As Professor Shenoy would say, the free market is not perfect, but it is always better than the results that come from any attempt by government to make it better.
 
Hmmm... Didn't Iraq originally war with Kuwait for "dumping" oil...?

Hmmm.....
 
This is one of the biggest argument that "fair-market" people and protectionists use. They say outsourcing is a product of too much freedom given to private entities do debase the american workforce. What do you guys think? comments?

Private entities and free markets aren't the problem here; they're the solution. Companies don't move offshore because they have too much freedom.

If the US were to abolish the minimum wage, eliminate or substantially reduce taxes and regulations, and otherwise basically get out of the way of entrepreneurs, most of those previously-lost jobs would return the US.
 
Private entities and free markets aren't the problem here; they're the solution. Companies don't move offshore because they have too much freedom.

If the US were to abolish the minimum wage, eliminate or substantially reduce taxes and regulations, and otherwise basically get out of the way of entrepreneurs, most of those previously-lost jobs would return the US.

Regardless, companies will continue to go overseas, if it's cheaper, and it'll probably stay that way. Unless a bunch of people are willing to receive a pay cut manufacturing jobs will continue to go overseas. As a developed nation we expect to see high wages and pay, in developing countries they just want a job to provide for their families.
 
One has to consider the cost of living in each of the competing countries. If the jobs in our country will not pay enough for the worker to survive, then there is a problem.

If we try to compete with a country who has a cost of living that is one third of ours, they can pay their people less and therefore the product will be less expensive than one we could provide.

How can we compete with another country where the cost of living is so much less than ours?

As for removing minimum wages, suppose we did this? That would mean a person could work all day and get just enough pay to buy dinner and then perhaps if he is lucky, sleep behind a dumpster for the night.
 
One has to consider the cost of living in each of the competing countries. If the jobs in our country will not pay enough for the worker to survive, then there is a problem.

If we try to compete with a country who has a cost of living that is one third of ours, they can pay their people less and therefore the product will be less expensive than one we could provide.

How can we compete with another country where the cost of living is so much less than ours?

As for removing minimum wages, suppose we did this? That would mean a person could work all day and get just enough pay to buy dinner and then perhaps if he is lucky, sleep behind a dumpster for the night.

Unless competition ceases existence within the job market, this will not happen, at least, not even close to what you describe.

We are living beyond our means.
 
Regardless, companies will continue to go overseas, if it's cheaper, and it'll probably stay that way. Unless a bunch of people are willing to receive a pay cut manufacturing jobs will continue to go overseas. As a developed nation we expect to see high wages and pay, in developing countries they just want a job to provide for their families.

if its cheaper... without regulations, it may be cheaper to develop products domestically because of the freight cost to ship large goods.

Plus, with no regulations, it will be easier for people like us to start our own businesses...
a USA made brand versus a chinese made brand, which would you pick?
there isn't much made in this country anymore, but what is made here, is of good quality.
 
Unless competition ceases existence within the job market, this will not happen, at least, not even close to what you describe.

We are living beyond our means.

It is happening right now!

I have two sons. Both of them are working minimum wage jobs and neither of them can afford to move out of the house. They can hardly pay for the insurance on the junk cars they drive. They pay most of their pay check for gasoline and insurance so they can get to work. Try as I might, I can not find a cheap place for them to live where they could afford to pay the rent and still have any food. This is even if they both had the same apartment and shared the cost.
 
One has to consider the cost of living in each of the competing countries. If the jobs in our country will not pay enough for the worker to survive, then there is a problem.

If we try to compete with a country who has a cost of living that is one third of ours, they can pay their people less and therefore the product will be less expensive than one we could provide.

How can we compete with another country where the cost of living is so much less than ours?

As for removing minimum wages, suppose we did this? That would mean a person could work all day and get just enough pay to buy dinner and then perhaps if he is lucky, sleep behind a dumpster for the night.

Google Outlawing Jobs by Murray N. Rothbard.
 
It is happening right now!

I have two sons. Both of them are working minimum wage jobs and neither of them can afford to move out of the house. They can hardly pay for the insurance on the junk cars they drive. They pay most of their pay check for gasoline and insurance so they can get to work. Try as I might, I can not find a cheap place for them to live where they could afford to pay the rent and still have any food. This is even if they both had the same apartment and shared the cost.

=/

You reap what you sow...

At least, that's what I'd say if we HAD a free market. Among many problems, inflation is raping our economy. I give what I believe to be the libertarian viewpoint, but ask you to remember that for almost any libertarian idea to succeed, we need a libertarian system of government, which is why our ideas seem so "far out" by the uninitiated, as capitalized upon by politicians.
 
It is happening right now!

I have two sons. Both of them are working minimum wage jobs and neither of them can afford to move out of the house. They can hardly pay for the insurance on the junk cars they drive. They pay most of their pay check for gasoline and insurance so they can get to work. Try as I might, I can not find a cheap place for them to live where they could afford to pay the rent and still have any food. This is even if they both had the same apartment and shared the cost.

That is the result of inflation. minimum wage doesn't buy what it used to...
40 years ago you could go to a movie and get a soda for less the 50cents in louisiana.
Your looking at it as if the pay isn't enough, but the actualy problem is that the currency is losing its value(prices are too high).

Then all companies that are operating in this environment can be crushed by the fluctuating currency as it jockeys the cost of doing business up and down.

This is not a favorable environment for businesses.
We just lost a GM plant here because the union kept demanding more pay (most likely to keep up with cost of living). So the GM plant moved.
The janitors were making $17 an hour at this place.... that is ridiculus.
Instead of getting a smaller paycheck, now these people are getting none.

A move to the free market won't be painless,... we have to undo all the damage that has already been done by collectivist.
 
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=/

You reap what you sow...

At least, that's what I'd say if we HAD a free market. Among many problems, inflation is raping our economy. I give what I believe to be the libertarian viewpoint, but ask you to remember that for almost any libertarian idea to succeed, we need a libertarian system of government, which is why our ideas seem so "far out" by the uninitiated, as capitalized upon by politicians.

qft.
 
Inflation is the answer to everything here on this second page...and yes if we move towards libertarianism and austrian economics in America the short run would be pretty bad...because we mainly have to fix all of the problems from what we did over the years...after that everything would become so much better. To bad most of the world doesn't realize this yet. That's why we need to be out there spreading the word daily!!!!
 
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I think the old system of tariffs would be great now and we should return to that. Tariffs would also provide a source of revenue for the government, making it even easier to get rid of the IRS.
 
Japan has a very high cost of labor. Toyota still out competes Ford. Why is that?

Europe has a high cost of labor. It still runs a balanced trade account. Why is that?
 
Japan has a very high cost of labor. Toyota still out competes Ford. Why is that?

Europe has a high cost of labor. It still runs a balanced trade account. Why is that?

1. Low shipping costs from China where all their items are imported from ;)

2. Most aren't involved in wars and have absurdly high taxes.
 
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