How do you respond to Sweden?

[emazur]

 

[Perry]

Sweden has a population of under 10 million. Much easier to handle things at the "local" level which is why we are for states rights.

 

[Diurdi]

Yeah but when you're taxed to death that means freedom has been soaked..

Ofcourse, but Nordic countries have a damn high business freedom and trade freedom. Nordic nations also beat USA on investment freedom. Most nordic nations have appalling labour freedom (except denmark) and disastrous amounts of govt. spending.

My point is to show that the US has ventured so far from its free market ideals, that even socialist countries around Scandinavia have it better in some areas.

 

[Danke]

Tom Woods gave a good speech how Socialistic countries could not exist if they did not have the benefit of Capitalistic countries to set the price goods and services.

 

[Uriah]

Sweden is a much smaller country than the USA

On a small and more manageable scale it works better. I do not demean Sweden when I say compare it to a state in the US. Because of the size and population it is comparable. States have more privileges than the federal government.

 

[_b_]

Tom Woods gave a good speech how Socialistic countries could not exist if they did not have the benefit of Capitalistic countries to set the price goods and services.

Even Lenin admitted this by saying that basically when the world is socialist/communist they will still need a free market operating somewhere so that the rest know how to set their prices.

 

[Seraphim]

Lmfao - even the Commies know their own shit is whack. Nothing but greedy power mongers hell bent on control.

Even Lenin admitted this by saying that basically when the world is socialist/communist they will still need a free market operating somewhere so that the rest know how to set their prices.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

If you look at overall economic freedom, Sweden is actually right up there with the best. As diurdi pointed out, very low tariffs and trade barriers, low regulation, stable money, good investment freedom, etc. It comes in #39, right ahead of the Bahamas and Costa Rica, two places people generally think of as very free economically and tax havens. http://www.freetheworld.com/2011/reports/world/EFW2011_chap1.pdf

So it's no surprise they do OK in Sweden. The better argument for socialists to make would be: "Look at Zimbabwe, Myanmar, or Venezuela. They are totally socialist, yet their economies are great and the people there are really happy. So that proves socialism can work."

Of course, the problem is that the economies of Zimbabwe, Myanmar, and Venezuela are in the toilet and the people there are not happy. So, the end result is, socialism has no leg to stand on. Game Over. Socialism loses.

 

[Dave42]

Hey guys, first post on the forums and this was the thread that urged me to register. I'm an American that lives in Denmark with my Danish fiance. Being the only American in my circle of friends has put me in some interesting conversations with my Danish friends concerning my political beliefs and when hot issues come up, they all look at me and say things like "Dave, how backwards is your country that your government doesn't provide healthcare to its citizens!"... then that usually follows with a chorus of people laughing... Once the jeering calms down, I ask them how would they feel if the EU decided that they were going to implement a healthcare system for all of Europe and that the Danes would have to fall in line with this new policy... every time and consistently, they respond negatively. The say things like "OMG, I would never ever support that!" And then they start talking about how great Denmark is for not adopting the Euro, how they don't want the rest of Europe's problems and how EU healthcare would be such a bad idea. That also usually spurs comments like "The EU did what Hitler dreamed of doing but instead they used persuasion rather than force...." But then I ask them.... "so why is it so hard to imagine why people don't want the US federal gov't to administer healthcare to its citizens when all citizens elect state governments. I explain to them that the great thing about having state governments is that if we disagree with our state laws and policies enacted by the state government, if we want.. we can find a job somewhere else and move should we have the desire to. But at the federal level, it becomes the law of the land we no longer have a choice anymore and we lose liberty. That usually spawns the discussion of personal freedom and the encroaching of states rights. But to my surprise, almost all Danes have the same view of the European Union and how they encroach on their rights as citizens of their own country. In the end, they understand completely the view that a central government can't manage the lives of over 300 million people. I applaud the Danish system of healthcare because while the Danes most certainly pay for it with 45% - 65% of their incomes, the system works for them and the overwhelming majority of the people want this healthcare system. It really works for them and that's great for the Danes. But it would never work in the US and I think that's great too. Our very different cultures defines who we are and pointing at someone and saying they're wrong is incredibly arrogant in my opinion. It's easy to make the correlation to the US Federal gov't and the EU based on the oversight of how many citizens it will oversee and how both of these centralized governments have the want and the ability rule over you.. regardless of what you want... so yea, this is how I respond to the Sweden question and it amazes me how after this explanation that people suddenly seem so enlightened. It's pretty cool.

 

[Becker]

Sweden is a much smaller country than the USA

every country other than Canada, China, Russia, India are smaller than USA, either by land mass or population. (none of them welcome immigrants like we do)

 

[_b_]

Nice post, Dave, and welcome to the board!

 

[Voluntary Man]

When someone brings up Sweden, a country with very high taxation across the board, a national healthcare system (better than US) and still a growing economy. How do you respond to that given that we're asking for exactly the opposite.

i would respond by saying, "so what?"

i don't take materialist bait. coercionists always want to argue that we'll all be so much safer, better fed, and healthier, once we're all locked in our respective cages.

1) I don't believe it.

2) even if they're right, no thanks!

unlike marxism, freedom isn't a materialist philosophy. you can keep your gilded cages. i'll side with Thomas Jefferson:

"i would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

 

[blabam]

Hey guys, first post on the forums and this was the thread that urged me to register. I'm an American that lives in Denmark with my Danish fiance. Being the only American in my circle of friends has put me in some interesting conversations with my Danish friends concerning my political beliefs and when hot issues come up, they all look at me and say things like "Dave, how backwards is your country that your government doesn't provide healthcare to its citizens!"... then that usually follows with a chorus of people laughing... Once the jeering calms down, I ask them how would they feel if the EU decided that they were going to implement a healthcare system for all of Europe and that the Danes would have to fall in line with this new policy... every time and consistently, they respond negatively. The say things like "OMG, I would never ever support that!" And then they start talking about how great Denmark is for not adopting the Euro, how they don't want the rest of Europe's problems and how EU healthcare would be such a bad idea. That also usually spurs comments like "The EU did what Hitler dreamed of doing but instead they used persuasion rather than force...." But then I ask them.... "so why is it so hard to imagine why people don't want the US federal gov't to administer healthcare to its citizens when all citizens elect state governments. I explain to them that the great thing about having state governments is that if we disagree with our state laws and policies enacted by the state government, if we want.. we can find a job somewhere else and move should we have the desire to. But at the federal level, it becomes the law of the land we no longer have a choice anymore and we lose liberty. That usually spawns the discussion of personal freedom and the encroaching of states rights. But to my surprise, almost all Danes have the same view of the European Union and how they encroach on their rights as citizens of their own country. In the end, they understand completely the view that a central government can't manage the lives of over 300 million people. I applaud the Danish system of healthcare because while the Danes most certainly pay for it with 45% - 65% of their incomes, the system works for them and the overwhelming majority of the people want this healthcare system. It really works for them and that's great for the Danes. But it would never work in the US and I think that's great too. Our very different cultures defines who we are and pointing at someone and saying they're wrong is incredibly arrogant in my opinion. It's easy to make the correlation to the US Federal gov't and the EU based on the oversight of how many citizens it will oversee and how both of these centralized governments have the want and the ability rule over you.. regardless of what you want... so yea, this is how I respond to the Sweden question and it amazes me how after this explanation that people suddenly seem so enlightened. It's pretty cool.

+rep. I'm from the Netherlands and always use this analogy when the healthcare topic comes up

 

[helmuth_hubener]

I applaud the Danish system of healthcare because while the Danes most certainly pay for it with 45% - 65% of their incomes, the system works for them and the overwhelming majority of the people want this healthcare system. It really works for them and that's great for the Danes.

It doesn't actually work. Rather, it destroys their economy to an extent and causes big problems. Socialism doesn't work. But you are absolutely right, I'm sure, that they want the system. The overwhelming majority of Americans want Social Security to exist, but it absolutely doesn't work, rather it destroys the economy. That is why education is so important. Ultimately, change the minds of the people and you change the type of things government can get away with doing and thus you change the course of history.

 

[JackieDan]

Ofcourse, but Nordic countries have a damn high business freedom and trade freedom. Nordic nations also beat USA on investment freedom. Most nordic nations have appalling labour freedom (except denmark) and disastrous amounts of govt. spending.

My point is to show that the US has ventured so far from its free market ideals, that even socialist countries around Scandinavia have it better in some areas.

I understand your point. That said, the U.S. businesses face lesser taxation while they suffer from more regulations. It is twisted in Scandinavia.

 

[NYgs23]

Sweden hasn't been in a war in 200 years. That can't hurt.

 

[The Midnight Ride]

I understand your point. That said, the U.S. businesses face lesser taxation while they suffer from more regulations. It is twisted in Scandinavia.

How do Norway and Canada compare to Sweden? I have seen them rank high on many Freedom Indices.

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

Even Lenin admitted this by saying that basically when the world is socialist/communist they will still need a free market operating somewhere so that the rest know how to set their prices.

Do you have a source for this? I'd love to show this to one of my friends. Thanks.

 

[Dave42]

It doesn't actually work. Rather, it destroys their economy to an extent and causes big problems. Socialism doesn't work. But you are absolutely right, I'm sure, that they want the system. The overwhelming majority of Americans want Social Security to exist, but it absolutely doesn't work, rather it destroys the economy. That is why education is so important. Ultimately, change the minds of the people and you change the type of things government can get away with doing and thus you change the course of history.

Arrogant much? Actually it does work and it has for nearly 50 years. Their welfare society is a part of their culture and if it works for them (and it does), then who are we to tell them that they're wrong? I don't agree with a lot of their policies, but then again... why do I have to? I'm not a Dane and however Denmark decides to run their country is none of my business. However, because I love my fiance... I'll play ball with their government and live with the way they do things. After all, it's their country and they can do whatever they want with it. Who am I to tell them otherwise? I really love Ron Paul's stance on this sort of thing. We have no business in the internal affairs of other nations. They can do what they want and we don't have to care either way because it's not our business. If we can hop on board that way of thinking, I think our nation as a whole would be a lot less arrogant. By minding our own business and not judging others, we nurture the relationships we have with other countries and the people that live in them.... and if they want to change things, they'll do it without any kind of interference from us.

 

[Dave42]

How do Norway and Canada compare to Sweden? I have seen them rank high on many Freedom Indices.

Norway is quite similar to Sweden in a lot of ways.. as well as Denmark. Very high taxes and the government provides the population with services such as education, healthcare and other various entitlements. They pay more in taxes, but the standard of living in Norway is also really high and the people who work there get paid more in comparison to someone in the US doing the same job. The Norwegian Krone is a really strong currency so they do quite well when they travel abroad.