How do you feel about the LP platform on abortion?

[torchbearer]

I may see it as... humanity is conciousness... so its not human until the brain begins to think.

And if you want to debate positions... this is the one i hold.

 

[torchbearer]

it doesn't matter to me what anyone else believes about when life begins... i'm not seeking to use government force to control their decisions in this matter.

And to also note the above.
THis isn't an emotional issue for me.

 

[TurtleBurger]

That is your opinion, and that is fine.
And I don't agree with the dogma I am talking about at all... but that is how it is seen in the church dogma.
The whole reason I brought it up is to show you a more extreme view of life than your own... so many of you can empathize when others don't see life as beginning when you think it begins...

I understand some people lack the ability to empathize with others... but i still try...

That is not my opinion, that is just a restating of Catholic dogma. I'm just pointing out that you have a basic misunderstanding of the principles of Catholicism. The Catholic position is actually very logical and reasonable, but if you let Monty Python put their own spin on it, well it looks like everything else that they do. That's why they are comedians, not theologians; it's their job to twist things around to make them look ridiculous.

 

[torchbearer]

That is not my opinion, that is just a restating of Catholic dogma. I'm just pointing out that you have a basic misunderstanding of the principles of Catholicism. The Catholic position is actually very logical and reasonable, but if you let Monty Python put their own spin on it, well it looks like everything else that they do. That's why they are comedians, not theologians; it's their job to twist things around to make them look ridiculous.

Let me throw in another curve ball.
The pope has also been stated, that it is ok for women to masturbate during sex because it aids in the act of fertility if it helps her achieve orgasm.
The whole reason its ok is because it aids in the creation process.
If it was for her enjoyment alone.. it would be sinful.
The whole dogma is centered around the creation of life... and anything that stops that creation is bad and anything that helps it is good.
Bad = sin
Good = godly.

Women masturbating during sex is godly.

 

[NationaliseIt]

It's someone else. Mothers do NOT own anyone, but them self.<IMHO> I didn't design the system.

You clearly don't understand the system.

Is a cancer growth someone else? Is a virus someone else? Is a spleen someone else?


The has to be a cutoff point and saying from the point of conception is as ridiculous as saying upto the head crowning.

 

[Truth Warrior]

You clearly don't understand the system.

Is a cancer growth someone else? Is a virus someone else? Is a spleen someone else?


The has to be a cutoff point and saying from the point of conception is as ridiculous as saying upto the head crowning.

Whose DNA is it? That's how you tell.

 

[Krugerrand]

Let me throw in another curve ball.
The pope has also been stated, that it is ok for women to masturbate during sex because it aids in the act of fertility if it helps her achieve orgasm.
The whole reason its ok is because it aids in the creation process.
If it was for her enjoyment alone.. it would be sinful.
The whole dogma is centered around the creation of life... and anything that stops that creation is bad and anything that helps it is good.
Bad = sin
Good = godly.

Women masturbating during sex is godly.

I'd be very curious to see a source on that.

 

[tremendoustie]

I did not miss your point. It's simply arbitrary and as you admit - unprovable.

It is not unprovable that a person is self-aware -- what is unprovable is that self-awareness begins with brain activity. If you believe it does not, when do you think it begins? Do you think an egg and a sperm are self-aware?

At no point did I ever suggest that any random couple of cells are a human person. I'm simply distinguishing between the entity as a whole and a portion of the entity. So please, stop with the toe bit.

So, what if I lose my lower torso and my legs. Which half is a person? Neither is whole. Are quadrouple amputees not people?

What's inside a fertilized chicken egg? .... a chicken. It may not have hatched. It may be in its youngest of stages ... but it's still a chicken. The contents of that egg are profoundly different than an unfertilized chicken egg.

How does a new human being start? ... as sperm meet egg.

Sure, I agree that this is an important step. I just think personhood is defined by self-awareness, not a particular string of DNA.

 

[torchbearer]

I just think personhood is defined by self-awareness, not a particular string of DNA.

This.

 

[torchbearer]

I'd be very curious to see a source on that.

great, let me dig around on google for something the last pope said.
while i'm lost in internetland.

you can chew on this info:

Persona Humana:
Pope Paul VI issued a declaration in 1975 on many aspects of human sexuality. 2 It is titled: "Persona Humana - Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics." Priests and other officials in the Roman Catholic church are not allowed to offer alternative opinions in public, or even to suggest that change is needed.

Some of the pope's comments in Persona Humana apply to masturbation:

"...masturbation constitutes a grave moral disorder..."
"...masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act...the deliberate use of the sexual faculty outside normal conjugal relations essentially contradicts the finality of the faculty. For it lacks the sexual relationship called for by the moral order, namely the relationship which realizes 'the full sense of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love.' All deliberate exercise of sexuality must be reserved to this regular relationship."
"Even if it cannot be proved that Scripture condemns this sin by name, the tradition of the Church has rightly understood it to be condemned in the New Testament when the latter speaks of 'impurity,' 'unchasteness' and other vices contrary to chastity and continence."
"The frequency of the phenomenon in question is certainly to be linked with man's innate weakness following original sin; but it is also to be linked with the loss of a sense of God, with the corruption of morals engendered by the commercialization of vice, with the unrestrained licentiousness of so many public entertainments and publications, as well as with the neglect of modesty, which is the guardian of chastity." 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Church Catechism:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) condemns masturbation in Part 3: "Life in Christ;" Section 2: "The Ten Commandments;" Article 6: "The Sixth Commandment;" Topic: "Offenses against chastity."

2351: "Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes."
2352: "By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. 'Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.' 'The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.' For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of 'the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved'."

"To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability." 4
The reference to the Magistgerium's "constant tradition" of opposition to masturbation appears to conflict with Giovanni Cappelli's findings that the first mention of masturbation in Church documents dated to the sixth century CE.

It would appear that the CCC condemns all pleasure derived from genital stimulations, whether masturbation is continued until orgasm or not.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is masturbation a mortal sin or a venial sin?
The Roman Catholic Church divides sin into two categories: venial and mortal. Venial sin is relatively minor in nature, but a single mortal sin can determine one's eternal fate. It can cause a person to be separated from God, and to spend eternity suffering in Hell which the church considers to be both a place and a state of existence. The church also teaches that there is no mechanism by which a mortal sin can be forgiven after death.

However, the Church teaches that a person guilty of a mortal sin can confess it to a priest who may give the individual absolution from the sin. This is only possible if the penitent is truly sorry for their actions and sincerely plans to not repeat the sin.

Being a "grave moral disorder" and "an intrinsically and gravely disordered action" the Church teaches that even a single act of masturbation can theoretically send a person to Hell, if two additional factors are present:

The person must commit the act with full knowledge of the sin and of its seriousness.
"It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent." 5
The second factor might lessen the severity of the sin so that it not a mortal sin. Here, Catholic theologians have a range of interpretations:

Grace MacKinnon, a contributor to the Catholic Exchange, writes:
"The Church recognizes, for example, that in the practice of masturbation, psychological factors including adolescent immaturity, lack of psychological balance, and even ingrained habit can influence a person�s behavior, and this could lessen or even eliminate moral responsibility....If they are in doubt about the morality of any sexual activity, a person should talk to his or her confessor, a priest. After listening to all of the circumstances and conditions surrounding an individual�s actions, he will make a judgment and give the proper guidance." 6

Father Joseph Farraher writes:
"...for a person to be formally guilty of a mortal sin of masturbation his act must be a fully deliberate choice of what he fully realizes is seriously sinful....if there is no free choice of the will there is no guilt of sin at all even if the person is aware of what he is doing." 1

"Father Philip" at Catholic Q and A writes:
"...a careful, prayerful, and thorough reading of the "Catechism" leads us to conclude that masturbation can be a "serious mortal sin", but we must also admit that the "Catechism" foresees situations in which masturbation may not be 'a serious mortal sin'."

"Circumstances that range from 'affective immaturity' to the 'force of acquired habit' to psychological factors such as anxiety and even to 'social factors' can mitigate a person's moral culpability if she/he performs the objectively disordered act of masturbation. In such a case, the 'Catechism' is insistent that masturbation would not be 'a serious mortal sin' because of any one of those extenuating reasons."

"To be sure, neither I nor my colleagues in Catholic Campus Ministry would encourage anybody to masturbate. The teaching of the Church is explicit on this topic, and therefore, we would not encourage something the Church says is 'disordered'."

"At the same time, though, faithfully teaching what the Church actually teaches calls me and my colleagues in Catholic Campus Ministry to recognize the Church's wisdom and God's grace in saying that masturbation is not always and in every case gravely sinful...."

 

[TurtleBurger]

Let me throw in another curve ball.
The pope has also been stated, that it is ok for women to masturbate during sex because it aids in the act of fertility if it helps her achieve orgasm.
The whole reason its ok is because it aids in the creation process.
If it was for her enjoyment alone.. it would be sinful.
The whole dogma is centered around the creation of life... and anything that stops that creation is bad and anything that helps it is good.
Bad = sin
Good = godly.

Women masturbating during sex is godly.

Sometimes you gotta get the ol' engine running. Notice he didn't encourage women to masturbate by themselves though; that is still not kosher. And you are right about the creation of life being key to the dogma, but they still don't put birth control (or masturbation) on the same plane as murder.

 

[torchbearer]

I'd be very curious to see a source on that.

Ha! I found something pretty quickly:

Masturbation may be acceptable to the Church under specific conditions:
Articles by theologians Roberto Beretta and Elisabetta Broli appear regularly in the Italian Bishops' magazine, Avvenire. They have written a controversial sex guide titled: "It's a Sin Not To Do It." It gives readers answers to "everything you wanted to know about sex but the Church (almost) never dared to tell you." The guide encourages married members of the church to make love more often to avoid "impotence and frigidity." An article in the Telegraph states:

"Another chapter likely to raise eyebrows unearths theological justification for post-coital masturbation for women who fail to achieve orgasm during intercourse. Beretta told The Telegraph: 'The Church is not against sex. Something needed to be done about the clich�s and stereotypes. The Church is not only about forbidding the use of contraception and warning against the sins of the flesh....The Vatican has not raised any concerns about the tone and style of the book,' he said. 'Some people might find it a little direct. But at least after reading this book, they will have a balanced picture of what the Church actually thinks about sex'." 11

A woman masturbating to orgasm after unprotected sexual intercourse will likely have a greater probability of conception.

source: Julian Coman, "Vatican sex guide urges Catholics to do 'it' more often," Telegraph.co.uk, 2004-OCT-31

 

[torchbearer]

Sometimes you gotta get the ol' engine running. Notice he didn't encourage women to masturbate by themselves though; that is still not kosher. And you are right about the creation of life being key to the dogma, but they still don't put birth control (or masturbation) on the same plane as murder.

it's considered a mortal sin. So is murder.
They are the same in severity.

 

[TurtleBurger]

I'd be very curious to see a source on that.

It's in Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body, but there's a lot to dig through there.

 

[Krugerrand]

It is not unprovable that a person is self-aware -- what is unprovable is that self-awareness begins with brain activity. If you believe it does not, when do you think it begins? Do you think an egg and a sperm are self-aware?

Frankly, I do not care when self-awareness begins. That is one aspect of being human. Like begets like. Human begets human. It is human whether it knows it or not.

So, what if I lose my lower torso and my legs. Which half is a person? Neither is whole. Are quadrouple amputees not people?

Why are you trying to make this difficult? I never said that an entity cannot suffer injury or that an entity that suffers an injury is now not human.

If you were a star-fish whose leg could regenerate a new fish, then I'd say both halves were still a starfish.

Sure, I agree that this is an important step. I just think personhood is defined by self-awareness, not a particular string of DNA.

Human begets human.

 

[TurtleBurger]

it's considered a mortal sin. So is murder.
They are the same in severity.

All mortal sins are not equal. And you won't find any reference in any Church document anywhere saying that masturbation kills a human being.

 

[torchbearer]

All mortal sins are not equal. And you won't find any reference in any Church document anywhere saying that masturbation kills a human being.

all mortal sins are equal... or it would be considered a venial sin.
The catholic church, in its infinite wisdom has given us God's legislative body.
According to their laws... your punishment is the same for all mortal sins...the sins are equal regardless of how you personally view it.

 

[Krugerrand]

Let me throw in another curve ball.
The pope has also been stated, that it is ok for women to masturbate during sex because it aids in the act of fertility if it helps her achieve orgasm.
The whole reason its ok is because it aids in the creation process.
If it was for her enjoyment alone.. it would be sinful.
The whole dogma is centered around the creation of life... and anything that stops that creation is bad and anything that helps it is good.
Bad = sin
Good = godly.

Women masturbating during sex is godly.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...uide-urges-Catholics-to-do-it-more-often.html

I don't see the connection between your points and the article you referenced. Plus, I'm hesitant to trust a non-church review of a book as a true representation of Catholicism.

 

[Krugerrand]

It's in Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body, but there's a lot to dig through there.

Don't have time for that one.

 

[torchbearer]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...uide-urges-Catholics-to-do-it-more-often.html

I don't see the connection between your points and the article you referenced. Plus, I'm hesitant to trust a non-church review of a book as a true representation of Catholicism.

Then read the theology of the body for yourself.
I'm not going to spoon feed you.
But I am right. And you will find this to be true.

I am not saying the position held by the catholic chuch is right.
I laugh at anyone who tells me what god thinks... and i laugh even harder at people who put together a legislative body to tell us god's extended laws.