How do you feel about the LP platform on abortion?

I think the street goes both ways, though - most people on either side want the law to follow their own way of thinking in terms of when life begins.

No, I just want to be left alone.. and for my family to make those decisions.. since it is effecting us.

edit: it doesn't matter to me what anyone else believes about when life begins... i'm not seeking to use government force to control their decisions in this matter.
 
The LP is acting libertarian. It's a woman's body and her choice.

But what if there is a "woman" living in the woman's body? That is "her" little developing and living body - therefore could the argument be made that it is her choice?
 
What about the rights of the baby? We all have the right to life.

As far as the right to do what you want with your body, you made the choice when you had sex.

Rape is a terrible crime. However, we don't put the rapist to death. why would we end the innocent life of a baby?
 
No, I just want to be left alone.. and for my family to make those decisions.. since it is effecting us.

edit: it doesn't matter to me what anyone else believes about when life begins... i'm not seeking to use government force to control their decisions in this matter.

I don't care either what other people personally believe about when life begins, but things change when they are so certain that life begins after birth that they choose to get an abortion (particularly a late-term abortion). After all, if I am right about when life begins and they are wrong, then they are therefore aggressively violating a full-fledged baby's right to life. I mean, I can respect that you keep to yourself and leave others to their business, but if you saw your next-door-neighbor kill their twelve-year-old kid and throw him into a wood-chipper, would you really have no problem with it whatsoever, just because it doesn't affect you personally? ;)

As always, the question boils down to, "When does human life really begin?" None of us can rightly claim to know with 100% certainty, but if you consider the implications of someone guessing wrong and acting accordingly (by throwing a live baby into a blender, for example), you should at least understand why pro-lifers are so concerned with what seems to pro-choicers to be "other people's business." I mean, I do think the pro-life camp goes too far in bandying around the word "murder," whereas "manslaughter" is more appropriate...but in any case, it should be clear why this is necessarily a question of law.
 
Not Knowing When Life Begins Leads to No Liberty

I don't care either what other people personally believe about when life begins, but things change when they are so certain that life begins after birth that they choose to get an abortion (particularly a late-term abortion). After all, if I am right about when life begins and they are wrong, then they are therefore aggressively violating a full-fledged baby's right to life. I mean, I can respect that you keep to yourself and leave others to their business, but if you saw your next-door-neighbor kill their twelve-year-old kid, would you really have no problem with it whatsoever, even if it doesn't affect you personally? ;)

As always, the question boils down to, "When does human life really begin?" None of us can rightly claim to know with 100% certainty, but if you consider the implications of someone guessing wrong and acting accordingly (by throwing a live baby into a blender, for example), you should at least understand why pro-lifers are so concerned with what seems to pro-choicers to be "other people's business." I mean, I do think the pro-life camp goes too far in bandying around the word "murder," whereas "manslaughter" is more appropriate...but in any case, it should be clear why this is necessarily a question of law.
[Emphasis mine]

It seems that the LP doesn't even know when life begins, even though the answer is obvious (for those who have "eyes that can see and ears that can hear").
 
I don't care either what other people personally believe about when life begins, but things change when they are so certain that life begins after birth that they choose to get an abortion (particularly a late-term abortion). After all, if I am right about when life begins and they are wrong, then they are therefore aggressively violating a full-fledged baby's right to life. I mean, I can respect that you keep to yourself and leave others to their business, but if you saw your next-door-neighbor kill their twelve-year-old kid and throw him into a wood-chipper, would you really have no problem with it whatsoever, just because it doesn't affect you personally? ;)

As always, the question boils down to, "When does human life really begin?" None of us can rightly claim to know with 100% certainty, but if you consider the implications of someone guessing wrong and acting accordingly (by throwing a live baby into a blender, for example), you should at least understand why pro-lifers are so concerned with what seems to pro-choicers to be "other people's business." I mean, I do think the pro-life camp goes too far in bandying around the word "murder," whereas "manslaughter" is more appropriate...but in any case, it should be clear why this is necessarily a question of law.


In life and death lines are drawn.

Here's a test case for example.

My house is on fire. I run into a room and see you and my dog both on the floor unconcious. The house is about to collapse I can only get one of you. Well, since you are a stranger and since I have a great deal of feelings for my dog. I decide to save my dog.

Now that's a bit of a stretch from abortion. However, lines are drawn. While someone would draw the line at killing a 12 year old as not being acceptable, a fetus might not qualify on the same level. And that is the debate. Where do we start qualifying life as protected. I don't think there will ever be a full agreement on the subject. And while compromise is not an option for some, your beliefs will be compromised by someone else. So then the next question would be when do we start charging people with murder. It's not a black and white situation for a lot of us. I hardly can qualify a lump of cells as a human life form. I could equate it to chopping off my hand as being murder of my hand. But again not quite the same. So then again when do we start qualifying something as life that deserves protection.

Since there is a vast difference in opinion there must be a compromise. Otherwise you will lose it all. You cannot stop abortions. You can make people who have abortions criminals, but that still doesn't solve the problem.

Education is key and since so many pro-lifers are against sex education, they create a problem rather than really try and solve it.
 
In life and death lines are drawn.

Here's a test case for example.

My house is on fire. I run into a room and see you and my dog both on the floor unconcious. The house is about to collapse I can only get one of you. Well, since you are a stranger and since I have a great deal of feelings for my dog. I decide to save my dog.

Now that's a bit of a stretch from abortion. However, lines are drawn. While someone would draw the line at killing a 12 year old as not being acceptable, a fetus might not qualify on the same level. And that is the debate. Where do we start qualifying life as protected. I don't think there will ever be a full agreement on the subject. And while compromise is not an option for some, your beliefs will be compromised by someone else. So then the next question would be when do we start charging people with murder. It's not a black and white situation for a lot of us. I hardly can qualify a lump of cells as a human life form. I could equate it to chopping off my hand as being murder of my hand. But again not quite the same. So then again when do we start qualifying something as life that deserves protection.

Since there is a vast difference in opinion there must be a compromise. Otherwise you will lose it all. You cannot stop abortions. You can make people who have abortions criminals, but that still doesn't solve the problem.

Education is key and since so many pro-lifers are against sex education, they create a problem rather than really try and solve it.

This is not true. Pro-lifers are against sex education in school-they would rather teach this sensitive subject personally. (that's how I understand it, at least)
 
I oppose abortion and therefore oppose that platform.
Life I feel is the most fundamental liberty, if we devalue it for the sake of convenience then all other liberties are meaningless.
 
In life and death lines are drawn.

Here's a test case for example.

My house is on fire. I run into a room and see you and my dog both on the floor unconcious. The house is about to collapse I can only get one of you. Well, since you are a stranger and since I have a great deal of feelings for my dog. I decide to save my dog.

Now that's a bit of a stretch from abortion. However, lines are drawn. While someone would draw the line at killing a 12 year old as not being acceptable, a fetus might not qualify on the same level. And that is the debate. Where do we start qualifying life as protected. I don't think there will ever be a full agreement on the subject. And while compromise is not an option for some, your beliefs will be compromised by someone else. So then the next question would be when do we start charging people with murder. It's not a black and white situation for a lot of us. I hardly can qualify a lump of cells as a human life form. I could equate it to chopping off my hand as being murder of my hand. But again not quite the same. So then again when do we start qualifying something as life that deserves protection.

Since there is a vast difference in opinion there must be a compromise. Otherwise you will lose it all. You cannot stop abortions. You can make people who have abortions criminals, but that still doesn't solve the problem.

Education is key and since so many pro-lifers are against sex education, they create a problem rather than really try and solve it.

Even though I disagree with you about where the line should be drawn, I totally agree with what you're saying here...drawing the line that forms our consensus about when life begins is a really complex subject. It just disturbs me that by being pro-choice, pro-choicers are taking a very cavalier stance about what the implications are if they're wrong (full-fledged manslaughter, which is illegal in all other cases, even when it's "someone else's business").

I bolded your last sentence though because I think it needs a slight correction: I think it's unfair to lump pro-lifers in with Christian conservatives (many of whom oppose sex education). I mean, I'm a pro-lifer, but I totally agree that the "abstinence-only education" crowd makes the teen pregnancy / STD problem much worse...and for that matter, I'm not even a Christian anyway. Although I strongly believe that it should be up to parents what their kids learn, not the state, I have no intentions of hiding any important information from my own.
 
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I oppose abortion and therefore oppose that platform.
Life I feel is the most fundamental liberty, if we devalue it for the sake of convenience then all other liberties are meaningless.

Then I assume you are a vegan who makes sure not to support or buy any product that results in killing of life. All life is important. Or no life is important. Or we all draw lines in the sand. Which makes what you say opinion and not fact.
 
Then I assume you are a vegan who makes sure not to support or buy any product that results in killing of life. All life is important. Or no life is important. Or we all draw lines in the sand. Which makes what you say opinion and not fact.

There are shades of gray here too though. "George Washington was born on February 22, 1732" is a fact. "Purple is the best color ever" is an opinion. "Life begins at such and such time" is an opinion, but just like, "God does/doesn't exist," it's an opinion on an unobservable but universal truth. We may not be able to know the answer with 100% certainty, but that doesn't mean there isn't a universally true answer. It just means that nobody knows for sure whose answer is closest to the truth...which is why I take a cautious, "better safe than sorry" stance within the domain of general reasonability (which "every sperm is sacred" doesn't really fall into ;)).
 
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I oppose abortion and therefore oppose that platform.
Life I feel is the most fundamental liberty, if we devalue it for the sake of convenience then all other liberties are meaningless.

If I may get off topic a moment, do you oppose standing armies, wars, and government law enforcement for the same reason (respect for life)? :confused:
 
Just some questions first:

An unborn child is diagnosed with severe medical condition, say no brain. Should the women be forced to carry to term. Who decides?

A zygote is considered a human? Who decides?

A physician can use forceps to rip out a fetus in chunks if need be within a womb. But outside of a womb, he would be charged with murder. Why does location change this? Who decides?

Just questions, nothing more.
 
Just some questions first:
Well, I'll give my opinion, but I could be wrong. :p

An unborn child is diagnosed with severe medical condition, say no brain. Should the women be forced to carry to term. Who decides?
No brain?!? Well, in that case, I'd be hard-pressed to call the baby a "living human." Sure, there are living human cells there, but is there a living human altogether? I'd say no, because the level of sentience involved is near zero. In any case where the baby inside is non-living/entirely non-sentient, the decision would default to the woman, since she has a non-sentient husk of a baby inside of her (but not an actual sentient baby).

Who should decide? Some omniscient entity should decide. ;) Since no verifiably omniscient entities are speaking up about it, we're stuck with forming some kind of reasonable consensus...one which I feel should generally err on the side of assuming the baby is alive in cases where there's any strong indication of such.

A zygote is considered a human? Who decides?
A zygote is a living human cell, but I'd be hard-pressed to call it sentient by any reasonable standard...while the more religious/dogmatic pro-life types disagree, I really have to say no on this one. Here again, like with the brainless baby, the decision would default to the woman...but only because of the lack of sentience. (Once sentience enters the picture - which I'd place around the time the higher brain functions form and the heart starts beating - that's when my answer changes dramatically.)

As above, we're stuck with second-best when it comes to who should decide.

A physician can use forceps to rip out a fetus in chunks if need be within a womb. But outside of a womb, he would be charged with murder. Why does location change this? Who decides?

Just questions, nothing more.
Location changes this because society collectively picked "baby's first breath" as the moment that life/sentience begins...and it sounds so inconsistent precisely because drawing the line in the sand there is hopelessly arbitrary. From the baby's point of view, first heartbeat and first brain waves are much more significant than first breath. The line wasn't drawn there because it actually makes sense with respect to the baby's level of sentience; the line was drawn there simply because it's convenient to pro-choicers and abortionists to claim everything dependant upon a woman is fair game for the blender.

Who decides? There's an objective universal truth here about when life/sentience begins, but it's unobservable to us, so we're stuck with our subjective opinions, unfortunately. Even more unfortunately, criminal law must take a stance on it, either actively or passively, and a lot of people are going to disagree with that stance, one way or another (by taking "no stance," it would be taking a pro-choice stance by default). For lack of a better way, taking a vote on it and going from there is sadly the "fairest" approach we have for reaching consensus...and considering how much I disagree with today's prevailing opinion, it's apparent just how much faith I put into our most reliable available approach. ;) In the practical sense: Because of our limited knowledge, the wide margin of error, and especially the horrendous implications of assuming life begins later than it actually does, I think it would be best for all involved if we all decided the issue more locally. That way, local communities would at least better uphold individual rights in a way more consistent with the views of their inhabitants.
 
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"Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration."

I'm pretty staunchly pro life. I appreciate the first sentence's concession to my camp, but don't like what the platform is advocating (basically pro-choice).

I know Rothbard was pro choice and that a lot of people here are pro-choice, but given that Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin, and Barr Barr (basically all the biggest names in the movement last year) were pro-life, it seems like the platform needs an update. I personally would like to see something to the effect of "We believe that it is impossible to protect liberty if you can not first protect life". But at the very least, just take out the last sentence. It gives the impression that libertarinism is a pro-choice philosophy, which is false imo given that the leaders of the movement are all pro life as well as a slim majority of libertarian private citizens.

I think the most rational view is that life begins when the baby has a heart beat and brain waves, since that's how we measure death -- I believe abortion should be illegal after that point.

The idea that a couple cells is a person is absurd to me, as is the idea that the same baby is a person outside the womb but not inside it. We need to have this discussion, however, and determine a reasonable basis for the beginning of life.

It's also illogical to say that the necessary libertarian position is pro-choice. Here's a good first test which would catch 90% of the balloney: If your argument for why libertarians should be pro choice also applies to murder, it's bunk.
 
Well, I'll give my opinion, but I could be wrong. :p


No brain?!? Well, in that case, I'd be hard-pressed to call the baby a "living human." Sure, there are living human cells there, but is there a living human altogether? I'd say no, because the level of sentience involved is near zero. In any case where the baby inside is non-living/entirely non-sentient, the decision would default to the woman, since she has a non-sentient husk of a baby inside of her (but not an actual sentient baby).

Who should decide? Some omniscient entity should decide. ;) Since no verifiably omniscient entities are speaking up about it, we're stuck with forming some kind of reasonable consensus...one which I feel should generally err on the side of assuming the baby is alive in cases where there's any strong indication of such.


A zygote is a living human cell, but I'd be hard-pressed to call it sentient by any reasonable standard...while the more religious/dogmatic pro-life types disagree, I really have to say no on this one. Here again, like with the brainless baby, the decision would default to the woman...but only because of the lack of sentience. (One sentience enters the picture - which I'd place around the time the higher brain functions form and the heart starts beating - that's when my answer changes dramatically.)

As above, we're stuck with second-best when it comes to who should decide.


Location changes this because society collectively picked "baby's first breath" as the moment that life/sentience begins...and it sounds so inconsistent precisely because drawing the line in the sand there is hopelessly arbitrary. From the baby's point of view, first heartbeat and first brain waves are much more significant than first breath. The line wasn't drawn there because it actually makes sense with respect to the baby's level of sentience; the line was drawn there simply because it's convenient to pro-choicers and abortionists to claim everything dependant upon a woman is fair game for the blender.

Who decides? There's an objective universal truth here about when life/sentience begins, but it's unobservable to us, so we're stuck with our subjective opinions, unfortunately. Even more unfortunately, criminal law must take a stance on it, either actively or passively, and a lot of people are going to disagree with that stance, one way or another (by taking "no stance," it would be taking a pro-choice stance by default). For lack of a better way, taking a vote on it and going from there is sadly the "fairest" approach we have for reaching consensus...and considering how much I disagree with today's prevailing opinion, it's apparent just how much faith I put into our most reliable available approach. ;) In the practical sense: Because of our limited knowledge, the wide margin of error, and especially the horrendous implications of assuming life begins later than it actually does, I think it would be best for all involved if we all decided the issue more locally. That way, local communities would at least better uphold individual rights in a way more consistent with the views of their inhabitants.


Great points. In general, I'm encouraged by this thread -- people have seemed to recognize the key question is, when does person-hood begin? I think it's clear that after that point, to kill the baby would be murder, and before that point, to kill it should be legal. We need some fresh thinking on this, and I for one think your definition is right on the money.
 
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Then I assume you are a vegan who makes sure not to support or buy any product that results in killing of life. All life is important. Or no life is important. Or we all draw lines in the sand. Which makes what you say opinion and not fact.

Why would being vegan okay? Why is it okay to kill and eat vegetation?
 
Great points. In general, I'm encouraged by this thread -- people have seemed to recognize the key question is, when does person-hood begin? I think it's clear that after that point, to kill the baby would be murder, and before that point, to kill it should be legal. We need some fresh thinking on this, and I for one think your definition is right on the money.

Person-hood is a distraction. Bunk is what happens when you disregard a human entity as a bunch of cells. If you trace your history back, you were once a bunch of cells - and for that matter, we are all still a bunch of cells, albeit many more.

The idea that a couple cells is a person is absurd to me

The key here is the human entity that those cells make up. Those cells are a different human entity that the bunch of cells that make up the human entity that supports them (the mother). The bunch of cells that make up every human have 46 chromosomes. The cells that make up the child entity have a different 46 than the cells that make up the mother entity. (as eventually evidenced on their future RealID cards)

Invariably when surgeons perform fetal surgery on an unborn child, some of the cells of that child will die. But the human entity continues. Cells are constantly dieing and being replaced for all of us. To talk about simple cells that are part of the human entity is a distraction from the killing of the human entity.
 
[*]They oppose the legalization of suicide...which isn't a big issue, but it's kind of absurd. I mean, when people kill themselves, what are we supposed to do - throw their body in prison? Kill them again? :rolleyes:

The legalization of suicide has ramifications outside of the death of the individual. One of the biggest is payment of life-insurance since many have exclusions that stop payment if doing an illegal activity or if death is by suicide.

In states that permit assisted suicide, (my understanding is that) they will rule the cause of death the illness that motivated the suicide rather than ruling the cause of death a suicide. That has implications if there is a lawsuit on the cause of the illness ... ie lung cancer from exposure to smoking or to asbestos. Payouts are typically greater if an illness causes death and less if suicide causes death.
 
Person-hood is a distraction. Bunk is what happens when you disregard a human entity as a bunch of cells. If you trace your history back, you were once a bunch of cells - and for that matter, we are all still a bunch of cells, albeit many more.

I don't agree that I am only a bunch of cells. I think we are more properly minds who have bodies, and I think the emergence of brain waves is a plausible indication of the presence of a human mind.

The key here is the human entity that those cells make up. Those cells are a different human entity that the bunch of cells that make up the human entity that supports them (the mother). The bunch of cells that make up every human have 46 chromosomes. The cells that make up the child entity have a different 46 than the cells that make up the mother entity. (as eventually evidenced on their future RealID cards)

Invariably when surgeons perform fetal surgery on an unborn child, some of the cells of that child will die. But the human entity continues. Cells are constantly dieing and being replaced for all of us. To talk about simple cells that are part of the human entity is a distraction from the killing of the human entity.

A few cells also live for a while after death, and those cells also have a unique 46 chromosomes. Shall we have rights for corpses? Perhaps we can have life support machines for livers or other organs, the cells of which survive, and still have unique chromosomes -- is that liver therefore a person with legal rights? Is someone who has received a heart transplant really two people? Shall his heart have separate legal rights too?

I think the most reasonable definition ties person hood to self-awareness, or consciousness. We consider a liver to be just a collection of cells, and not a person, because we believe it does not have a mind, or perspective, of its own -- it is not aware.
 
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