How do we produce more when free trade sends industries over seas?

[Bossobass]

Regulations, taxes, sexual harassment suits, equal opportunity employment suits, environmental protection agency red tape, zoning, noise, license fees, certification costs, ADA, disability insurance, unemployment insurance, health care insurance, costs to process the mountains of paperwork, manipulation of investment capital availability and terms, inflation, permits, full plan review, engineer stamp requirement costs, defect rate charges, storm water laws, lakes, streams and rivers of the Commonwealth laws, endangered species laws, wetlands laws, utilities connections fees, hard surface ratios, clean air act, banking fees, vehicle registration fees, vehicle asset tax, IRS audits, insurance audits, license requirement audits, phone services taxes, advertising costs, consumer protection compliance, legal fees...

Just some of the costs I incur because my company is in America.

Wages are all but irrelevant.

Although there is no such thing as a superior race, the environment that existed in America that spurred people like Edison, Ford, Tesla, Klipsch, Bell, Carnegie, Gianinni, Colt, Singer, Otis, Wright, Eastman, Land, Morse, Whitney, Disney, Goodyear, Armstrong, Watson, Kildall, Turner, Lauder, Jobs, etc., etc., to innovate and manufacture products people want to buy is what made America the place to want to go to and the world's largest creditor and industrial giant.

Again, the focus on wages is simply a bogus smoke screen. Corporate profits is what manipulated trade policy, monetary policy, tax policy, mergers and acquisitions legislation, usury laws, cumbersome regulatory legislation to discourage start ups, bailout policy, drug policy, pension and retirement account policy, etc.

Free trade is an advertising slogan.

Congress is the corporate enabler of the monopolistic 'grow or die' business plan.

The executive branch is the corporate security force.

Media is the corporate commercial delivery system.

Taxpayers are the co-signers of corporate debt.

Labor is the scapegoat.

Bosso

 

[DocHolliday]

I'm curious about your statement. What quality manufactured goods from Russia have you seen recently?

I frequently hear German engineering applauded, especially when it comes to cars, but I rarely see anything impressive. Most of my friends with expensive German-made cars go to mechanics more than I do with my cheap Nissan Versa.

Yeah - the only ways to get really competitive would be to dismantle the government regulatory apparatus. Then if we could start making quality and durable goods like Germany, Switzerland and Russia do, that would put us in a different market than the designed obsolescence China crap.

 

[DocHolliday]

Hi Bossobass, thanks for your reply.

I'd like to know what business you're in, if you don't mind me asking.


I certainly agree that the taxes and regulations you mention are a great impediment to business, but I'm curious to know (from you or someone else) if any research has been done to back up the idea that without them American wages would be irrelevant.

Another question I have is, if regulations are so hurtful, and yet there are many many instances of corporations lobbying government to advance their own interests, why an equal amount of pressure is not applied to restore the freer system.

Regulations, taxes, sexual harassment suits, equal opportunity employment suits, environmental protection agency red tape, zoning, noise, license fees, certification costs, ADA, disability insurance, unemployment insurance, health care insurance, costs to process the mountains of paperwork, manipulation of investment capital availability and terms, inflation, permits, full plan review, engineer stamp requirement costs, defect rate charges, storm water laws, lakes, streams and rivers of the Commonwealth laws, endangered species laws, wetlands laws, utilities connections fees, hard surface ratios, clean air act, banking fees, vehicle registration fees, vehicle asset tax, IRS audits, insurance audits, license requirement audits, phone services taxes, advertising costs, consumer protection compliance, legal fees...

Just some of the costs I incur because my company is in America.

Wages are all but irrelevant.

Although there is no such thing as a superior race, the environment that existed in America that spurred people like Edison, Ford, Tesla, Klipsch, Bell, Carnegie, Gianinni, Colt, Singer, Otis, Wright, Eastman, Land, Morse, Whitney, Disney, Goodyear, Armstrong, Watson, Kildall, Turner, Lauder, Jobs, etc., etc., to innovate and manufacture products people want to buy is what made America the place to want to go to and the world's largest creditor and industrial giant.

Again, the focus on wages is simply a bogus smoke screen. Corporate profits is what manipulated trade policy, monetary policy, tax policy, mergers and acquisitions legislation, usury laws, cumbersome regulatory legislation to discourage start ups, bailout policy, drug policy, pension and retirement account policy, etc.

Free trade is an advertising slogan.

Congress is the corporate enabler of the monopolistic 'grow or die' business plan.

The executive branch is the corporate security force.

Media is the corporate commercial delivery system.

Taxpayers are the co-signers of corporate debt.

Labor is the scapegoat.

Bosso

 

[tangent4ronpaul]

I'm curious about your statement. What quality manufactured goods from Russia have you seen recently?

I frequently hear German engineering applauded, especially when it comes to cars, but I rarely see anything impressive. Most of my friends with expensive German-made cars go to mechanics more than I do with my cheap Nissan Versa.

From Russia - optics, specifically, they make some very nice and affordable microscopes.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of, say test equipment. A Russian VoM will have more functions than it's American counterpart, be very ruggedly built, will come standard with a schematic, theory of operation, troubleshooting instructions (I'm not talking about something like in US appliances, but rather enough to allow you to repair ANYTHING that breaks) and a more technical writeup. It will also come with the spare parts most likely to fail and need replacement. In short, it's designed to be maintained by the owner and passed down for generations.

You have to admire a tool like that.

Nagra tape recorders (Swiss) also come with a schematic inside the lid and at least sometimes spare parts.

Other examples of their (Russian) design philosophy are that space launch vehicles and capsules are standard. They will just change to contents of capsule depending on if it's cosmonauts, a communications satellite, or an ICBM. Also, IIRC, parts from some of their rifles and RPG's are interchangeable.

As to German engineering, they make some great tools, you will most likely see these here in the form of high end coffee pots, food processors and so on. The VW Bug was great for ease of maintenance and reliability - not sure about the new bug.

Speaking of which, Subaru cars (Swedish, I believe), are very reliable, easy to work on, designed so you could get at any part with ease (well, before all the pollution control crap - who knows today...) and a very important factor: 90% of the bolts in the car are of 2 sizes and it comes standard with a tool kit containing those 2 wrenches along with some other tools. Fantastic, and very solid car!

The Apache Helicopter is supposed to be similar as to maintenance.

-t

 

[Optatron]

WHY would free trade send jobs overseas?

How could it possibly be cheaper and still time-efficient enough to have something manufactured and shipped across the globe?

That's how cheap it is, that shipping costs won't matter.

United States citizens are not entitled to excess wages, goods, and services just because they are United States citizens, nor are United States citizens a superior race with the ability to be more innovative, hard-working, or determined.

That doesn't mean we can't racially, culturally, personally preferably put our own people as priority just because we want to. But thanks to affirmative action, employment non-discrimination, American disabilities act, and other regulations, Americans are becoming a bitch to hire, which is why we export exploitation.

If the jobs go overseas, then it must finally bring it to the attention of our "representatives" that we are over-paid and over-protected.

How many people are willing to admit that?
There's only ONE RULE that should decide if one person is "overpaid" :
"If I can replace you, I'm paying too much"

We're living in an incredible time of excess which is unsustainable.

Only if you don't consider genocide a viable means of sustaining.

Until such burdens as pollution controls and minimum wage are eliminated or placed on the global community, the US cannot be competitive.

Whats to compete for? Everybody should decide what's happy and satisfying for themselves.

It has been proven time and time again that, in general, people are not willing to pay a premium for goods manufactured locally, and they shouldn't have to!

It's been proven time and time that people would rather pay than starve.

If we had truly free trade, "free trade" would not create trade deficits, and you have to address that root problem instead of its symptoms. Anything else is a distraction.

free trade means advantage for production countries, countries with either money nor produce nor weapons will be free to exploit if not openly bombed to death. (not that I think that's wrong)

 

[Bossobass]

Hi Bossobass, thanks for your reply.

I'd like to know what business you're in, if you don't mind me asking.


I certainly agree that the taxes and regulations you mention are a great impediment to business, but I'm curious to know (from you or someone else) if any research has been done to back up the idea that without them American wages would be irrelevant.

Another question I have is, if regulations are so hurtful, and yet there are many many instances of corporations lobbying government to advance their own interests, why an equal amount of pressure is not applied to restore the freer system.

View the facts:

Small business represents more than 1/2 of employment and more than 1/2 of GDP in America.

The Small Business Administration's budget has been cut to 1/3,000 of the federal budget.

I bumped into a friend at a trade show in Vegas 3 years ago. He told me that he set up a plant in China to export to the US.

I asked him why he would go to such extremes?

He said, "In the US, it would take 2 years to clear local, state and federal zoning, plan review, EPA, etc., to get a permit to build the plant, then inspections, OSHA, unions, etc, before I have a building. In China I'm up and running in 2 months."

Notice, he said nothing about labor costs.

The dollar has fallen from 120 to the high 70s, so imports cost more. Chinese New Year is a month and a half of down time. Shipping is a month, minimum... IF DHS doesn't pull your container for routine check. That only brings it to one of the coasts. Labor is less, but so is the skill level. You must have proper training and supervision or you get ballast instead of high tech product. Warranty is a nightmare. Patents are ignored, etc., etc.

Why would you face those hurdles and uncertainties?

When you're small cap and, for example, in cutting edge consumer electronics, 2 years can make your product obsolete before it ever gets built. That means you start with MKIII and I and II have never been to market.

Take the single most oppressive, human rights violators on the planet. Add to that the fact that they were the ones who supplied every weapon to a country that defeated you after a 10 year war. Then:

Lobby to bestow Most Favored Nation on them.

Move steel production there, followed by textiles, followed by everything else.

Read the duty drawback schemes analysis by the world bank:

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/...6974166266/4833916-1206974192224/PRWP3312.pdf

Yet, tariffs on imported goods in China, like auto parts and cars are 25% and 10%, respectively:

The Chinese government forces General Motors Corp., Renault SA, Volkswagen AG and other automakers operating in China to buy a certain quantity of their components from local suppliers. China also applies a 25 percent import duty on parts, compared with a 10 percent duty on complete cars. The EU, the U.S. and Canada lodged a complaint in 2006, saying the policies violate pledges China made when it joined the WTO in 2001.

China faces increasing pressure from trade partners to live up to its WTO membership commitments to protect copyrights and open its borders to foreign investors. The EU and the U.S. have been pressing China to let its currency rise, making its exports more expensive and cutting record trade surpluses.

The request for a WTO ruling on the legality of the duties on car parts came after the failure to resolve the dispute during months of talks. The three WTO judges ruled against China on almost all points in the complaint, said the person, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the judgment is confidential. The ruling will be officially released in March.

I could fill pages, but the bottom line is: Free trade, my ass.

I know several people who are small manufacturers of custom products who have been weaning off of the Chinese 'miracle' and setting up a network of small American fab shops because they're sick of poor quality, late delivery, rising prices and zero recourse against patent theft and rejected off spec product claims.

Again, labor costs are NEVER a part of the conversation.

Bosso

 

[Anti Federalist]

This all started to fall apart when we ceased to be citizens and started to be consumers.

Wal Marx provides cheap shit for the masses to consume because it relies on a prison economy to provide it.

If they could get the convicts at the local prison to punch out the products for a buck a day, they would, and there's no business model that can compete with prison labor.

You could have the most efficient business model in the world and it would fail due to the power of the state to keep those prisons full at the barrel of a gun with a monopoly of force.

Trying to claim that Wal Marx is some beacon of free market liberty is a sign of severe mental illness, imo.

So, company profits are getting thinner and thinner.. that's a plus for consumers. Walmart is demanding lower and lower prices from its suppliers.. that's a plus for consumers. In the end, the inefficient companies charging higher prices to consumers vanish and the most efficient companies remain. I'm failing to see the problem here. That's how a market is supposed to work.

As for the Walmart brand, Great Value, i'd say those products are often as high quality as more expensive products, but lower in price either due to more efficient production techniques or simply due to money saved on marketing and advertising. Once again, this is a boon to consumers.

Walmart has found a way to deliver the cheapest products to consumers than most other companies by a long shot, and it's not just corporate welfare that allowed that to happen (although that may be a small part of it.) Cost cutting techniques, higher efficiency, economies of scale all play a major role in Walmart's dominance.

 

[Knighted]

Wal Marx provides cheap shit for the masses to consume because it relies on a prison economy to provide it.

If they could get the convicts at the local prison to punch out the products for a buck a day, they would, and there's no business model that can compete with prison labor.

You could have the most efficient business model in the world and it would fail due to the power of the state to keep those prisons full at the barrel of a gun with a monopoly of force.

Prisoners producing products for a buck a day? Sounds like a great idea actually. It would be great if we could devise a way for prisoners to contribute to society rather than soak up the wealth of others through free food, lodging, and so on. Similar programs exist in some prisons as I understand it, but it would be great to extend it to all prisons somehow.

As for the 'prison economy', it's hard to tell if you're referring to minimum wage walmart employees or low labor cost Chinese employees making many of the goods that are stocked at walmart. Maybe neither? Either way, it's hard to picture either case being prisons or the people being "forced at the barrel of a gun" to work there. The people in both cases are working there on their own free will and clearly happy to have a job.

I find it remarkable that so many on this forum who normally claim to be free market proponents (as Ron Paul) are against many of the Walmart practices that would originate from a free market. Being a proponent of free markets but a protectionist globalism hater is quite frankly bordering on hypocrisy. Walmart may take advantage of corporate welfare, but many of its practices that people are putting down is this thread have nothing to do with that.

 

[tangent4ronpaul]

This all started to fall apart when we ceased to be citizens and started to be consumers.

Wal Marx provides cheap shit for the masses to consume because it relies on a prison economy to provide it.

If they could get the convicts at the local prison to punch out the products for a buck a day, they would, and there's no business model that can compete with prison labor.

You could have the most efficient business model in the world and it would fail due to the power of the state to keep those prisons full at the barrel of a gun with a monopoly of force.

Trying to claim that Wal Marx is some beacon of free market liberty is a sign of severe mental illness, imo.

You have not looked up private prisons in this country. Min wage is a JOKE!, they have to pay for their own TP and tooth paste. They get paid shit wages and the corp makes mega bucks while using them as the US version of sweat shop labor. The US has 25% of the worlds prison population, 2/3rds of which are in for drug possession, but we are less than 1/20th of the world population. The vast majority of prisoners are black.

Starting to smell the direction this country is going and the agenda?

-t

 

[tangent4ronpaul]

As for the 'prison economy', it's hard to tell if you're referring to minimum wage walmart employees or low labor cost Chinese employees making many of the goods that are stocked at walmart. Maybe neither? Either way, it's hard to picture either case being prisons or the people being "forced at the barrel of a gun" to work there. The people in both cases are working there on their own free will and clearly happy to have a job.

ROTGLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-t

 

[ArchPaul]

And it's a flawed system. I'm asking for solutions, not rehashing. (did not mean this to sound harsh)

Doc, don't start with that jack off. he's a hack shill troll.

 

[Feenix566]

Americans need to save more and produce more goods to escape this depression: Schiff, Paul, and others have said this many times.

Saving more is easy enough, but how do we produce more goods when manufacturers don't want to set up shop in the country? Taxes can be lowered, but that alone is not what's driving them away. Paying employees a living wage in this country costs a lot more than in Asia.

A few foreign auto makers have moved in in recent years, of course, but most goods are made overseas and imported.

Good for cheap products, bad for jobs and production.

So what do you guys suggest? How do we escape this? How can we have free trade and production?

You answered your own question. "Paying employees a living wage in this country costs a lot more than in Asia" Why do you suppose that is? Because the cost of living in this country is so much higher. Why is that? Because our tax code drives up the cost of everything! When it costs employers more to employ their workers than the workers actually take home, employers are forced to pass that cost on to consumers. Workers in America can't afford to buy the products they produce, because the tax man is driving up the cost of production!

That's why employers go overseas. Foreign countries don't have the same tax and regulatory burdens we have. That's why the cost of living on foreign countries is so much lower than it is here. That's why they can pay their employees so much less there. If we could reduce the size of our bloated government, we could even out the playing field.

 

[torchbearer]

You answered your own question. "Paying employees a living wage in this country costs a lot more than in Asia" Why do you suppose that is? Because the cost of living in this country is so much higher. Why is that? Because our tax code drives up the cost of everything! When it costs employers more to employ their workers than the workers actually take home, employers are forced to pass that cost on to consumers. Workers in America can't afford to buy the products they produce, because the tax man is driving up the cost of production!

That's why employers go overseas. Foreign countries don't have the same tax burden we have. That's why the cost of living on foriegn countries is so much lower than it is here. That's why they can pay their employees so much less there. If we could reduce the size of our bloated government, we could even out the playing field.

and this.

 

[Feenix566]

Another question I have is, if regulations are so hurtful, and yet there are many many instances of corporations lobbying government to advance their own interests, why an equal amount of pressure is not applied to restore the freer system.

Individual corporations lobby for regulations that prevent competition in the marketplace.

Cap and Trade is a perfect example. It's the result of lobbying efforts by the coal and wind power industries to get competition from natural gas out of the market. The Cap and Trade law gives licenses to coal plants, but requires natural gas plants to apply and pay for licenses.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Prisoners producing products for a buck a day? Sounds like a great idea actually. It would be great if we could devise a way for prisoners to contribute to society rather than soak up the wealth of others through free food, lodging, and so on. Similar programs exist in some prisons as I understand it, but it would be great to extend it to all prisons somehow.

So you don't see what's wrong about a prison population that is larger, both in raw numbers and per capita, being put to work to put free market businesses in the dark?

How many people in prison are innocent? And I don't mean those who there for violations of laws that should not be in the first place, I mean those who are innocent of anything at all.

Since 2000, over 300 people have been released from death rows across the country after having been proved to be innocent. Take that as a percentage of what is supposed to be the most heavily scrutinized judicial process and then consider, as a percentage, those who got railroaded into prison by corrupt cops, corrupt judges and corrupt prosecutors to fill private prisons and then put them to work making money for that system.

Great way to cut your labor costs, just point a gun a someone's head and make them work.

I find it remarkable that so many on this forum who normally claim to be free market proponents (as Ron Paul) are against many of the Walmart practices that would originate from a free market. Being a proponent of free markets but a protectionist globalism hater is quite frankly bordering on hypocrisy. Walmart may take advantage of corporate welfare, but many of its practices that people are putting down is this thread have nothing to do with that.

Hypocrisy...?

No, I just disagree, my position on this has been consistent for years now.

You cannot remain a free and independent republic if you rely on everybody else in the world, many of whom are openly hostile to your republic, to make everything that you need, things needed not just to live comfortably but to survive.

If it is not economically possible to do this, then the solution is not to ship everything overseas, the solution is to fix the monetary, regulatory and taxation situation so that business can and must do business here.

Assimilation into the Marxist Borg of globalism amounts to national suicide.

 

[Anti Federalist]

You have not looked up private prisons in this country. Min wage is a JOKE!, they have to pay for their own TP and tooth paste. They get paid shit wages and the corp makes mega bucks while using them as the US version of sweat shop labor. The US has 25% of the worlds prison population, 2/3rds of which are in for drug possession, but we are less than 1/20th of the world population. The vast majority of prisoners are black.

Starting to smell the direction this country is going and the agenda?

-t

I most certainly have looked into that, that was the direction I was going in this conversation.

You are correct, the prisons are becoming nothing more than private sweat shops, with the bonus of being filled by the state by the power of a gun at your head.

 

[sratiug]

Why wouldn't any "free trader" understand that having internal taxes instead of tariffs is much more damaging to free trade in America than a flat tariff? Are you all stupid, or what?

 

[Anti Federalist]

Yet another example of corrupt prosecutors railroading people into jail.

Corrupt Prosecutor Gets Promoted To Become Corrupt Judge
Last week, Mississippi Circuit Court Judge Bobby DeLaughter pled guilty to lying to FBI agents investigating him for corruption.

Before he became a judge, DaLaughter was the prosecutor who hid exclupatory evidence from the jury in the murder and robbery case against Cedric Willis. Willis did 12 years at Parchman Penitentiary before he was exonerated and released in 2007.

http://www.theagitator.com/

 

[Conza88]

wrong thread. delete.