How do we produce more when free trade sends industries over seas?

[tangent4ronpaul]

lthanx looks cool ill have to dig in and check it out more in depth when i get a chance

we get to start on the cncs next week so far its been a lot of lathe work milling and grinding i think the cnc's will be pretty easy to be honest but definatly an important thing to be able to do

have you ever seen that rep rap thing yet its a pretty simple to build 3d printer like they mention on that site there theres a vid on there homepage http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/WebHome

i forgot about that till i seen 3d printing on that site i wanted to build one before but ended up forgetting about it i probly will build one now but probly bigger and better

I've seen similar ones, but not that one. Thanks!

The MIT program kind of evolved into making tools that would make tools (reproduce) from the original class. You might want to search on peoples names, the FAB lab and poke around that site for more recent info. Though the old info is great! For a while they were setting up local FAB labs around the country - not sure if that is still active.

Here's something else you will likely be interested in - 2 sources, same document:

http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Advanced_Automation_for_Space_Missions

They talk about the possibility of machines that reproduce autonomously, in space, as a means of exploration. Very cool!

-t

 

[Kludge]

WHY would free trade send jobs overseas?

How could it possibly be cheaper and still time-efficient enough to have something manufactured and shipped across the globe?

United States citizens are not entitled to excess wages, goods, and services just because they are United States citizens, nor are United States citizens a superior race with the ability to be more innovative, hard-working, or determined. If the jobs go overseas, then it must finally bring it to the attention of our "representatives" that we are over-paid and over-protected. We're living in an incredible time of excess which is unsustainable. Until such burdens as pollution controls and minimum wage are eliminated or placed on the global community, the US cannot be competitive. It has been proven time and time again that, in general, people are not willing to pay a premium for goods manufactured locally, and they shouldn't have to!

If we had truly free trade, "free trade" would not create trade deficits, and you have to address that root problem instead of its symptoms. Anything else is a distraction.

 

[hugolp]

I'm not sure how current this information is, but a quick google search tells me that Vietnamese workers make $l.60 a day.

Do you believe that when the US stops manipulating/ borrowing that we're going to drop so much that Americans will gladly accpet $1.60 a day?

Even assuming a huge depression/adjustment, I find that unlikely to the extreme.

I don't buy that such a correction would be enough to lure back manufacturers.

Germany has a trade surplus, they export very sophisticated manufactured goods. Its a developed nation with high wages as well. Its the culture and work ethic of the inhabitants. While so many countries have invested in education and the promotion of engineering and mechanical trade schools. The USA has a greater focus in training for service related jobs, our economy is addicted to consumption.

This. You dont need low wages to compete. You need better productivity, wich can be low wages or highly skilled workers and proper machinery. Germany and Japan export more than they import and have high wages. That is because their workers are very productive and its profitable to pay them so much because they produce more and better than a vietnamise worker.

And like someone said before, its not like the US has a choice. At some point this will have to stop and the USA will have to start producing things. Wether the country prepares to be a high wage exporter like Germany or Japan or it prefers do nothing and end up being like Mexico its up to what the people and the policitians do now.

 

[tangent4ronpaul]

More:

http://fab.cba.mit.edu/

(machines that make machines class - 2 of them - are linked from here)
http://fab.cba.mit.edu/#top

http://fab.cba.mit.edu/content/tools/

http://fab.cba.mit.edu/about/faq/

Education:
http://fab.cba.mit.edu/academy/about/

Inventory (50K tools, 10K materials for a full shop - can make do with less)
http://fab.cba.mit.edu/about/fab/inv.html
VERY COOL! - updated or created last month!

THe FAB lab has been around for a while, but was frustrating because unless you went to MIT, participated in one of their programs domestically or overseas - you couldn't get reference material, schematics and stuff - other than the open courseware stuff. Now they are helping people build their own, doing distance learning, offering certificate and diploma programs and plan to have a BS program.

Thanks for getting me to re-visit this program!

btw: in the US, they taught kids and with some equipment the kids set up modern day "lemonade stands" where they would fabricate anything you want, while you wait. What a business!

Very cool stuff!

-t

 

[Cali4RonPaul]

This. You dont need low wages to compete. You need better productivity, wich can be low wages or highly skilled workers and proper machinery. Germany and Japan export more than they import and have high wages. That is because their workers are very productive and its profitable to pay them so much because they produce more and better than a vietnamise worker.

And like someone said before, its not like the US has a choice. At some point this will have to stop and the USA will have to start producing things. Wether the country prepares to be a high wage exporter like Germany or Japan or it prefers do nothing and end up being like Mexico its up to what the people and the policitians do now.

I dont think the USA can just all of sudden turn around and decide to retool their economy for higher value added products. Unless of course we develop a full range of industries that are innovative such as the latest battery technology or something of that caliber, even the Chinese are moving up the ladder of value added products, now they can do both higher value and lower value, we cant compete well for textiles and labor intensive industries.

Its a difficult situation as far as production is concerned, it will continue to decline for sometime..

 

[hugolp]

I dont think the USA can just all of sudden turn around and decide to retool their economy for higher value added products. Unless of course we develop a full range of industries that are innovative such as the latest battery technology or something of that caliber, even the Chinese are moving up the ladder of value added products, now they can do both higher value and lower value, we cant compete well for textiles and labor intensive industries.

Its a difficult situation as far as production is concerned, it will continue to decline for sometime..

I agree, its not an easy situation. But its not like the USA has a different choice. The inflationary policies have to stop (and that means ending the Fed), and then check what the american people working can deliver.

 

[LibForestPaul]

There is no competition with peoples who do not have liberty. A freeman can not compete against industries based on slavery, corporatism, cronyism, state-sponsored monopolies, and "lawless" nation-states. Bilateral trade-agreements. No more WHO or IMF or UN.

 

[tangent4ronpaul]

2 huge problems are Walmart and that the "free trade" agreements are always lopsided to favor the other country. Then there are also incentives to industry either by carrot or stick to move production overseas.

As to Walmart, their tactics are approach a company about a product and put in such a large order that it can't be filled unless the company expands. ie: has to take out loans to rent facilities, hire employees, buy additional equipment.

Next year Walmart returns and demands a lower price. If the company says no, they drop them and due to the loans they would go bankrupt. Somewhere in here Walmart will negotiate making a special "Walmart" version of the brand name product. inferior materials, shortcuts on workmanship, etc. It will look exactly like the name brand item, but it will be massively inferior.

Whey will keep this up, demanding a lower price every time, until all or part of production is forced to go overseas or the company goes bankrupt. All the time, the companies profits get thinner, their costs increase and Walmart makes more on each item.

Kind of reminds me of Congress... But yeah, that's how Walmart operates.

-t

 

[hugolp]

2 huge problems are Walmart and that the "free trade" agreements are always lopsided to favor the other country. Then there are also incentives to industry either by carrot or stick to move production overseas.

As to Walmart, their tactics are approach a company about a product and put in such a large order that it can't be filled unless the company expands. ie: has to take out loans to rent facilities, hire employees, buy additional equipment.

Next year Walmart returns and demands a lower price. If the company says no, they drop them and due to the loans they would go bankrupt. Somewhere in here Walmart will negotiate making a special "Walmart" version of the brand name product. inferior materials, shortcuts on workmanship, etc. It will look exactly like the name brand item, but it will be massively inferior.

Whey will keep this up, demanding a lower price every time, until all or part of production is forced to go overseas or the company goes bankrupt. All the time, the companies profits get thinner, their costs increase and Walmart makes more on each item.

Kind of reminds me of Congress... But yeah, that's how Walmart operates.

-t

¿How would the free market solve this?

 

[CitizenPlain]

I agree completely,

...

 

[tangent4ronpaul]

¿How would the free market solve this?

as to free trade agreements - get rid of them and just practice real free trade.

as to Walmart - government favoritism due to lobbying, bribes (er - "campaign donations"), etc. and convincing city councils that a store would bring in more revenue than that of a neighborhood - so they seize under eminent domain and give it to Walmart. Things like that need to end!

Freeing smaller stores of their regulatory and tax burdens would let them compete on more level footing and forming buying cooperatives so they could get wholesale prices closer to Walmart's would be a good start.

Unfortunately, they are so big now, that they are and will be a continuing threat. Generally when one of these big box stores moves into an area, a lot of small businesses get shuttered, and for every job Walmart creates, 3-4 others are lost.

The availability of expansion insurance, so that if Walmart or a similar chain tried to strong arm a company, they wouldn't go bankrupt might stop Walmart in it's tracks.

-t

 

[Knighted]

Whey will keep this up, demanding a lower price every time, until all or part of production is forced to go overseas or the company goes bankrupt. All the time, the companies profits get thinner, their costs increase and Walmart makes more on each item.

So, company profits are getting thinner and thinner.. that's a plus for consumers. Walmart is demanding lower and lower prices from its suppliers.. that's a plus for consumers. In the end, the inefficient companies charging higher prices to consumers vanish and the most efficient companies remain. I'm failing to see the problem here. That's how a market is supposed to work.

As for the Walmart brand, Great Value, i'd say those products are often as high quality as more expensive products, but lower in price either due to more efficient production techniques or simply due to money saved on marketing and advertising. Once again, this is a boon to consumers.

Walmart has found a way to deliver the cheapest products to consumers than most other companies by a long shot, and it's not just corporate welfare that allowed that to happen (although that may be a small part of it.) Cost cutting techniques, higher efficiency, economies of scale all play a major role in Walmart's dominance.

 

[CitizenPlain]

The problem is hidden in plain sight...

...

 

[EddieG]

The USD is worth far more than it should be, relative to other currencies. If the government stops manipulating/borrowing money, allowed the dollar to fall, and reduced taxes and regulations, manufacturing companies would flock back to the US.

There would be a temporary hit in quality of life in this country -- it's hard to beat a lifestyle based on continuous huge borrowing and spending -- but we would be far better off in the long run, and have a much more stable, productive economy.

It is not free trade that has sent industry overseas, it is government intervention -- especially in setting artificially low interest rates.

+1. This about says it all. Also, re: what workers in other countries are paid, the amount doesn't matter, it's the purchasing power that matters. A man with a dollar in a world of 5 cent milk is richer than a man with 10 dollars in a world of $2 milk.

 

[sratiug]

We don't have free trade in America, we have taxes. We only have free trade when it comes to imports. Therin lies a lot of the problem. We pay for our government on the backs of our productivity, and remove any burden from importers. This system must be reversed to the Jeffersonian kind to stop subsidizing imports.

 

[Zippyjuan]

So, company profits are getting thinner and thinner.. that's a plus for consumers. Walmart is demanding lower and lower prices from its suppliers.. that's a plus for consumers. In the end, the inefficient companies charging higher prices to consumers vanish and the most efficient companies remain. I'm failing to see the problem here. That's how a market is supposed to work.

As for the Walmart brand, Great Value, i'd say those products are often as high quality as more expensive products, but lower in price either due to more efficient production techniques or simply due to money saved on marketing and advertising. Once again, this is a boon to consumers.

Walmart has found a way to deliver the cheapest products to consumers than most other companies by a long shot, and it's not just corporate welfare that allowed that to happen (although that may be a small part of it.) Cost cutting techniques, higher efficiency, economies of scale all play a major role in Walmart's dominance.

Lower production costs also mean lower wages for workers so they have less money to buy the more expensive items. All those people who used to make things for the stores and producers WalMart caused to go out of business cannot find jobs paying what they were so now they have less money to spend at the other businesses in town meaning everybody ends up making less so they have ot shop WalMart.

They use their market size to extort concessions from suppliers. Sell us your product at $X or we won't buy anything from you. Since Walmart sells some 40% or whatever of their product, not having it in their stores means a huge loss of their sales nationally.

 

[Knighted]

Lower production costs also mean lower wages for workers so they have less money to buy the more expensive items. All those people who used to make things for the stores and producers WalMart caused to go out of business cannot find jobs paying what they were so now they have less money to spend at the other businesses in town meaning everybody ends up making less so they have ot shop WalMart.

I agree with part of that. When a more efficient business like Walmart comes to town, it's often to the detriment of certain other groups in competition with that business. But by narrowing in on those groups, you miss seeing the benefits to the whole. Keeping inefficient, antiquated businesses (or workers) around just so that a few people can retain their jobs does not benefit society and the economy in the long run. Labor being freed up from inefficient uses and applied toward more efficient uses only benefits society and its workers in the long run, even if it is a painful experience for those involved in the short run. It's an aspect of creative destruction.

 

[tangent4ronpaul]

But by narrowing in on those groups, you miss seeing the benefits to the whole. Keeping inefficient, antiquated businesses (or workers) around just so that a few people can retain their jobs does not benefit society and the economy in the long run.

Gee - that sounds a lot like socialism.... maybe fascism... Puting ppl out of work for the good of the whole and the state. Neocon?

-t

 

[LibForestPaul]

Lower production costs also mean lower wages for workers so they have less money to buy the more expensive items. All those people who used to make things for the stores and producers WalMart caused to go out of business cannot find jobs paying what they were so now they have less money to spend at the other businesses in town meaning everybody ends up making less so they have ot shop WalMart.

They use their market size to extort concessions from suppliers. Sell us your product at $X or we won't buy anything from you. Since Walmart sells some 40% or whatever of their product, not having it in their stores means a huge loss of their sales nationally.

How did Walmart open a store? Have roads built? Have special tax breaks given to them? Walmart is not reducing the price to the consumer, they are reducing the price paid to the supplier. They created a monopoly, through favorable legislation, and now they are exploiting their monopoly. This is my understanding of how Walmart operates.

 

[LibertyEagle]

get this straight already, we don't need to PRODUCE to be wealthy, we just need money to be wealthy.

we have the easiest production in the world, the printing press.