How Do Christians Reconcile Evolution?

[PierzStyx]

Who created this matter then?

Its eternal. It didn't need to be created out of nothing. It was not the absence of everything and then something. It always has been. Matter, in its most basic form, is eternal. It is not made or unmade. It is changed in form, even converted to energy (as happens in so-called "annihilation" theories) but always exists in some form or another.

As I understand it, the justification for ex nihilio creation is based on the Hebrew word "bara" or "barau" used in Genesis. Many Christians justify ex nihilio creation by saying this word means "create from" and say the thing from which all things are created is God. The problem is that, that is not what the text says. It says "God created (from)...." Not "God created from Himself....." The question arises then what does God create the heavens and the earth from? The answers from the modern prophets has been simple: From what was already there. It takes no mental leap or theological twisting of the words to fit an existent creed (the concept of ex nihilio is a 2nd century interpreted into, not from, the scriptures) for this to be true. It fits best with what is there in the text. Even the argument that Hebrew is a hard language and the word could in fact mean both (it also has been translated as "fat" as well btw) makes it work in the context of the forming of Creation.

A good concise discussion on it can be found here:http://en.fairmormon.org/Creatio_ex_nihilo


And a longer, deeper discussion can be found here in this pdf: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/pdf/review/1319433700-17-2.pdf

 

[eduardo89]

Its eternal. It didn't need to be created out of nothing. It was not the absence of everything and then something. It always has been. Matter, in its most basic form, is eternal. It is not made or unmade. It is changed in form, even converted to energy (as happens in so-called "annihilation" theories) but always exists in some form or another.

So then you don't believe God created the universe. He just formed it out of the matter that already existed?

 

[PierzStyx]

So then you don't believe God created the universe. He just formed it out of the matter that already existed?

God created the universe. He took the pure chaos and formed it, ordered it, and made it into a universe. He instituted its laws and makes it work. What we call the "laws of science/ of physics/etc." He made and set in place to govern what He had made. The pre-existence of matter does not mean it existed as a "Universe". That is one of the problems I have with Hawking actually. He assumes that complete chaos would randomly order itself and form a universe from disarray. It would not have. It takes God to cause the Universe to exist. He is the Creator. It is a limited understanding of the word "create" that assumes that unless you believe in ex nihilio creation then you can not believe in a creation at all.

To give it a smaller, earthly comparison its like an inventor making something. The inventor goes "Look what I have made!" and everyone goes "You've created something excellent!" Well that inventor did not create their invention from nothing, but from parts that existed chaotically before but the inventor brought together to work in one greater whole. Yet no one denies the inventor created something that previously wasn't there. In an infinitely greater way it is the same with God. He took the lesser chaos and made a greater, unified, ordered whole out of it-a Universe. He created it.

Or another way to look at it: A person may look over the barrenness of a desert and be asked what is out there. That person's response may very well be "Nothing." And no one would fault them. They see the desert as empty, as full of nothing. But is it? Of course not. If anything it is at least full of sand, randomly and chaotically strewn across the wastes. This is comparable to the state of existence here before the Creation. There was "nothing" because nothing was organized but not because there was an actual absence of some type of matter.

 

[pcosmar]

Can't speak for all Christians.
I simply reject it outright.

 

[tttppp]

Mormons believe in the eternal nature of matter, that God created the Universe by organizing it from chaos into order. And they've taught this, that the matter of the universe has always existed and wasn't created out of nothingness, since 1840. That si long before Einstein and Relativity or Hawking's claims in his book. Still b.s.?

Thats slightly more realistic than what most religions teach, that the universe was create by God and everything is finite. However, based on what you said, the Mormons still believe God created the universe. The universe could not have always existed if it was created by God. If they believed the universe has always existed and always will exist and that God did not create the universe, then they would be accurate.

 

[otherone]

based on what you said, the Mormons still believe God created the universe.

What he said was "God made Order from Chaos." Kinda like a word jumble.

 

[James Madison]

Evolution is, by and large, correct. Species adapt to their environments and, given enough time, will begin to diverge. This is easy to see across the biological spectrum. The question nobody asks is this: do natural selection, random mutation, and genetic drift have the creative capacity to generate the biodiversity we see in the world today? If so, where are the mathematical models to predict this process? If no, what other mechanisms could possibly be at work here?

 

[PierzStyx]

Thats slightly more realistic than what most religions teach, that the universe was create by God and everything is finite. However, based on what you said, the Mormons still believe God created the universe. The universe could not have always existed if it was created by God. If they believed the universe has always existed and always will exist and that God did not create the universe, then they would be accurate.

But then you're putting words into the "mouth" of science. The best example I've read of self-existent matter from a scientific perspective is from Stephen Hawkings in "A Brief History of The Universe." He uses mathematics and science to "prove" that matter doesn't need to be, it always has been. And his conclusion is therefore a god doesn't need to exist. It could have spontaneously evolved given infinite time and infinite options to do so. The problem is that this last part. he makes a GIGANTIC unscientific leap because a naturally ordered universe where all the infinitely right and infinitely specific conditions could exist for the spontaneous evolution of life, or even that has order, is impossible. Even given infinite time and infinite variables. This is because that for any given number of states of being entropy, the tending towards breaking down of order into chaos, increases. In effect the laws of the universe are so organized that order as we know it would never have developed. The Universe should still be in the complete chaos that it was in after the Big Bang. In fact there should be no "Universe" as such but only chaotic matter. That there is a Universe, that there is some form of cosmic law and order, means that something other than the laws of physics had to act upon the matter and order it. That force is not a force, but a being. That being is God. God provided order to chaos and formed the Universe, creating the somethingness of existence from the nothingness of chaotic matter.

 

[tttppp]

What he said was "God made Order from Chaos." Kinda like a word jumble.

What exactly does that mean? Does that mean God created the universe, or does that mean there's no beginning or end to the universe?

 

[PierzStyx]

What he said was "God made Order from Chaos." Kinda like a word jumble.

Perhaps, if you want to look at God as the being that takes the random letters and arranges them into words. But the comparison has its limitations. I prefer the example of the inventor I used in a previous post.

 

[tttppp]

But then you're putting words into the "mouth" of science. The best example I've read of self-existent matter from a scientific perspective is from Stephen Hawkings in "A Brief History of The Universe." He uses mathematics and science to "prove" that matter doesn't need to be, it always has been. And his conclusion is therefore a god doesn't need to exist. It could have spontaneously evolved given infinite time and infinite options to do so. The problem is that this last part. he makes a GIGANTIC unscientific leap because a naturally ordered universe where all the infinitely right and infinitely specific conditions could exist for the spontaneous evolution of life, or even that has order, is impossible. Even given infinite time and infinite variables. This is because that for any given number of states of being entropy, the tending towards breaking down of order into chaos, increases. In effect the laws of the universe are so organized that order as we know it would never have developed. The Universe should still be in the complete chaos that it was in after the Big Bang. In fact there should be no "Universe" as such but only chaotic matter. That there is a Universe, that there is some form of cosmic law and order, means that something other than the laws of physics had to act upon the matter and order it. That force is not a force, but a being. That being is God. God provided order to chaos and formed the Universe, creating the somethingness of existence from the nothingness of chaotic matter.

Infinity accounts for order and chaos. There's no need for a God to create order that already exists. Its a better theory than most religions, but still inaccurate.

 

[PierzStyx]

Infinity accounts for order and chaos. There's no need for a God to create order that already exists. Its a better theory than most religions, but still inaccurate.

The point is that there aren't infinite anything. First of all we know enough to even hazard a guess at the Universes' "age" which means that it hasn't had "infinite" time to organize itself. Second, thanks to the laws of physics we know there aren't infinite variables to take place. Perhaps if there was an infinitude of both he could be right. But there isn't. And we know it.

That said I take the statement as a kind of backhanded compliment and say thankya.

 

[tttppp]

The point is that there aren't infinite anything. First of all we know enough to even hazard a guess at the Universes' "age" which means that it hasn't had "infinite" time to organize itself. Second, thanks to the laws of physics we know there aren't infinite variables to take place. Perhaps if there was an infinitude of both he could be right. But there isn't. And we know it.

That said I take the statement as a kind of backhanded compliment and say thankya.

If you believe in no beginning or end to the universe, you believe in infinite time at the very least. The guesses at the universes age are complete bs. They are ultimately run by religious nuts who ultimately want to prove the universe was created by God. The laws of physics haven't proven or disproven infinity. All we know is our laws tend to work on Earth and what we can see from Earth. Thats a relatively small area.

 

[onlyrp]

God never created the universe because the universe has always existed and always will exist.

Wrong, everything that exists had a beginning. Just ask William Lane Craig.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCUE10dY3Rc

 

[onlyrp]

So then you don't believe God created the universe. He just formed it out of the matter that already existed?

why are you willing to believe God is uncaused, uncreated, but the universe is not?

 

[tttppp]

Wrong, everything that exists had a beginning. Just ask William Lane Craig.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCUE10dY3Rc

No you're wrong. Zero=infinity. Thats the fundamental law of the universe. Everything equals nothing.

That video clip is a bunch of gibberish. Just a bunch of religious people who want to try to justify the existence of God. Neither of them knew what they are talking about.

 

[anaconda]

But then you're putting words into the "mouth" of science. The best example I've read of self-existent matter from a scientific perspective is from Stephen Hawkings in "A Brief History of The Universe." He uses mathematics and science to "prove" that matter doesn't need to be, it always has been. And his conclusion is therefore a god doesn't need to exist. It could have spontaneously evolved given infinite time and infinite options to do so. The problem is that this last part. he makes a GIGANTIC unscientific leap because a naturally ordered universe where all the infinitely right and infinitely specific conditions could exist for the spontaneous evolution of life, or even that has order, is impossible. Even given infinite time and infinite variables. This is because that for any given number of states of being entropy, the tending towards breaking down of order into chaos, increases. In effect the laws of the universe are so organized that order as we know it would never have developed. The Universe should still be in the complete chaos that it was in after the Big Bang. In fact there should be no "Universe" as such but only chaotic matter. That there is a Universe, that there is some form of cosmic law and order, means that something other than the laws of physics had to act upon the matter and order it. That force is not a force, but a being. That being is God. God provided order to chaos and formed the Universe, creating the somethingness of existence from the nothingness of chaotic matter.

Have you considered that the system as a whole might, in fact, experience a net loss of order and energy despite living organisms consolidating, within, more order and a higher energy state? In other words, for every incursion into the universe of a life form, there may be a corresponding or greater loss of order elsewhere. And that ordering in life forms is a statistical inevitability given that certain random configurations have a relative statistical advantage for surviving in their micro environments?

 

[onlyrp]

No you're wrong. Zero=infinity. Thats the fundamental law of the universe. Everything equals nothing.

That video clip is a bunch of gibberish. Just a bunch of religious people who want to try to justify the existence of God. Neither of them knew what they are talking about.

doublespeak much?

 

[carclinic]

Where did you get the idea that was evolution?



Poe...nice

I don't get it.

 

[onlyrp]

I don't get it.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law