How Do Christians Reconcile Evolution?

[TER]

Christ died for us meaning mankind, in order to save mankind, and in doing so, saving all of creation which groans with birth pangs in anticipation of the Kindgom of Heaven. For we were made 'a little lower then angels' and yet the angels serve us who God made priests over creation. For God breathed the Spirit into man and made us children of God, alone made in His image and likeness. And He bestowed upon us the heavenly attributes of God, reasonable persons with the ability to create and destroy. Placing humans above all other creatures, bestowing the grace of adoption and kinship and lordship.

That God took clay from the ground and created Adam is enough for me, literally or otherwise. It does not affect my faith in the smallest way what that actually means. If it is literal, 'Glory to God!'. If it metaphorical, 'Glory to God!'

My worship is still to God the Father. And frankly, I have greater things to think about and more pressing issues in my life to work on then how I got here. I am much more interested in the why, which is not malleable and according to the time, but instead is eternal. If I ever get time to learn more about what God has revealed in man's quest for truth using the science of this world, that is, stay current with what new scientific experiments and findings suggest, then I would have items to debate in what must be fascinating fields of human endeavor (as biased and incomplete these fields may be).

Until then, I pray to the Lord for mercy and hope that one day He might 'bring me to all truths' by His Holy Spirit, whether it be in regards to the mystery of our creation or more importantly, why He created us at all.

And Christ reveals to all mankind why He created us and it pertains to the His very nature, that is, in the mystery of Love between persons, the very trinitarian expressed reality of eternal life which comes from the Father, through the Son, and in the Holy Spirit.

And even now the Kingdom is available and can be experienced. Even in this life, in this fallen world, can we partake in the divine and ineffable mysteries of the Kingdom. This is because Christ has sanctified us by His Incarnation, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension. God entered into creation to change creation, as High Priest, sanctifying creation and promising to be with us, always, and unto the end of the world.

This is the cry of the faithful and the testimony of the Church and can most evidently be seen in the lives of the holy men, women, and children, who by living Christ-bearing lives, became lights to the world, the very salt of the world, by whose prayers they have preserved the world until the glorious return of Christ, Who will come no more as an infant in a cave in a fallen world surrounded by the meek beasts of burden and poor shepards in the cold night, but as King and Lord and Judge of creation, the creation which He has sanctified as High Priest, upon a throne held by angels and before the congregation of saints and the entire world. This is a much more worthy evolution to consider and learn from.

 

[otherone]

According to Christian dogma the pre-fallen state was sinless and immortal. "By one man sin entered the world and by sin death". The Christian view is that Jesus died to save us from death and sin. "For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life."

Why must this transformation be played out as a species, historically? Prior to our individual births, were we sinless and immortal? Only by being born must we necessarily be subject to death...and that by Christ's sacrifice, don't we regain eternal life?

(btw, I don't make assumptions, I just ask questions)

 

[otherone]

Christ died for us meaning mankind, in order to save mankind, and in doing so, saving all of creation which groans with birth pangs in anticipation of the Kindgom of Heaven.

So every member of mankind is saved? Or does Christ save individuals?

 

[TER]

Why must this transformation be played out as a species, historically? Prior to our individual births, were we sinless and immortal? Only by being born must we necessarily be subject to death...and that by Christ's sacrifice, don't we regain eternal life?

(btw, I don't make assumptions, I just ask questions)

I know you did not address me but if you don't mind, I would like to give an answer to your very good question.

First, we have to understand what it means when you say 'death'. According to Christian theology, death is separation from God. God created us to be eternal, as this is His good pleasure and according to His loving kindness. It is one way in which He created us in His image.

When Adam disobeyed God, he separated himself from God. He distanced himself from life itself, as life can only come from God. In doing so, corruption and decay was introduced into the world because that is the natural consequence of existence without the life giving energy of God, Who permeates all things and is present everywhere and gives meaning and substance and existence to everything in creation. All who died under the Old Covenant, whether Jew or Gentile, prophet or sinner, tasted in this separation from God and ented into Hades, a place (or condition) which was the final destination of all souls prior to Christ's saving work. As the power of death still reigned over man because of our separation from God, likewise, the souls of all who died in the flesh languished in this sad existence apart from God.

Christ changed all that, because when He died, He entered into Hades, spotless and with no guile and with the power of God, He broke free the gates of Hades and the power of death over man because Hell could not hold Him and had nothing of which with which to accuse Him. This is called the harrowing of hell.

Because of this and of His Resurrection, we will all one day also rise from the dead, whether Jew or Gentile, sinner or saint.

We will not be resurrected like Lazarus was, for he eventually did die again and his soul awaits for the General Ressurection. Rather, we will rise again in our new bodies, in a new creation, and for all eternity, either in the blessed Kingdom of God or in hell, according to the just judgment of Christ. For this reason we say 'Lord have mercy'.

 

[TER]

So every member of mankind is saved? Or does Christ save individuals?

There is a famous old Orthodox saying which says "We sin alone but are saved together".

Our salvation is indeed personal and unique to us, but is never alone and apart from the Body of Christ.

The personal God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, determined that salvation for humanity could only take place as we lived fully and truly into the existence for which we were and are created: the Church. In the Church we do not exist as mere individuals but as members of the Body of Christ. My life is the life of Christ. What happens to me is essential to what happens to all the members of the Body and what happens to the members of the Body is essential for what happens to me. Their life is my life.

Thus when we approach the cup of Christ’s Body and Blood, we never approach it for our private good but as members of the Body. We are thus enjoined to be in love and charity with our neighbor and to forgive the sins of all – otherwise the cup is not for our salvation but our destruction.

The salvation into which we are Baptized is a new life – no longer defined by the mere existence of myself as an individual – but rather by the radical freedom of love within the Body of Christ. To accept Christ as our “personal” savior, thus can be translated into its traditional Orthodox form: “Do you unite yourself to Christ?” And this question is more fully expounded when we understand that the Christ to whom we unite ourself is a many-membered body.

After the resurrection, Christ appeared to the Apostle Peter. Their dialog must have been the most profound dialog ever to take place between man and God. “Do you love me?” Christ asked Peter. Peter hedged his answer. But Christ responded, “Feed my sheep.” For to love Christ and to feed His sheep are not two things but one. For Peter to finally know this was indeed his personal salvation. It is ours as well. Glory to God.

 

[otherone]

When Adam disobeyed God, he separated himself from God. He distanced himself from life itself, as life can only come from God.

Thanks for the reply, but if one accepts Adam as a historical figure, then one disallows for the possibility of evolution. If one accepts Adam as metaphor, then the conversation can continue.

 

[otherone]

Our salvation is indeed personal and unique to us, but is never alone and apart from the Body of Christ.

Is the Body Of Christ the entirety of Homo Sapiens?

 

[TER]

Thanks for the reply, but if one accepts Adam as a historical figure, then one disallows for the possibility of evolution. If one accepts Adam as metaphor, then the conversation can continue.

Which is why I don't waste time arguing if Adam is a historical figure or a metaphor, because it makes no theological difference in how I am saved, which is by Christ, who is the Second Adam, both historically and metaphorically.

 

[TER]

Is the Body Of Christ the entirety of Homo Sapiens?

No, though I wished it were.

 

[otherone]

Which is how, my friend TER, Christians may reconcile evolution. If Christ is a personal Savior, as opposed to a species savior, the question of origin is moot.

 

[TER]

I should say, so as not to give the appearance of pride or special status like some do by going around and calling themselves the elect, I don't claim that I will enter the Kingdom. God will be Judge. The Orthodox believe that we are saved by the work of Christ on the Cross and His Glorious Resurrection and Ascension, we are being saved by following His commandments and by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and that, God willing, we will be saved by the mercy and love of God in the Last Day.

Also, the Orthodox do not claim to have sovereign rights over who is in the Body of Christ, for God alone knows the hearts of men, and it is indeed possible if not most likely that many who are not Christians, let alone baptized Orthodox Christians, will find mercy at the Judgement and were indeed members of the Body, though not apparent or visible to those who confess to be in the Church. While we claim to have the most direct path to Christ, we do not limit God in either knowledge, wisdom or power. That is why, even when heretics were excommunicated by the Church, they were anathamitzed and not condemned as it is often casually asserted by so many. Indeed, the word anathema translated literally from the original Greek means 'to lift up', that is, to place in the hands and mercy of God. This is because, while it may seem impossible for us to understand how one outside of the Church can find salvation, we assert even more strongly that nothing is impossible with our merciful God and to Him we afford all Judgment.

 

[otherone]

Thus, while it may seem impossible for us to understand how one outside of the Church can find salvation, we assert even more strongly that nothing is impossible with God and to Him we afford all Judgment.

I'm guessing you aren't a Calvinist.

 

[Voluntary Man]

Can you define Evolution?

What are its attributes?

Are their inconsistencies?

Contradictions?

You want me to accept your doctrine?

Define it.

 

[TER]

Which is how, my friend TER, Christians may reconcile evolution. If Christ is a personal Savior, as opposed to a species savior, the question of origin is moot.

As a Christian, we should never have to reconcile science nor fear the study of the natural sciences. Now, we should question certain hypothesis or theories, especially ones which use the tremendously historical fallible method of human extrapolation and makes claims with underlying bias and prejudice. But honestly, I don't have the inclination or any desire to make arguments knowing I know so little about things that happened before I ever existed. My focus is on here and now, in this life, in this world, and the field of evolution adds little to my task at hand which is following Christ.

 

[PierzStyx]

I'm guessing you aren't a Calvinist.

Nope. If I understand correctly, TER is an Orthodox Christian. Am I correct, TER?

 

[TER]

Nope. If I understand correctly, TER is an Orthodox Christian. Am I correct, TER?

Yep, and not a very good one at that!

I am pretty sure people are probably starting to get a little sick and tired of me by now speaking about the Eastern Orthodox faith. lol

I can imagine my zeal can get irritating for some, which is why I should try to control myself a little better and stop posting so much!

 

[jmdrake]

Why must this transformation be played out as a species, historically? Prior to our individual births, were we sinless and immortal? Only by being born must we necessarily be subject to death...and that by Christ's sacrifice, don't we regain eternal life?

(btw, I don't make assumptions, I just ask questions)

A zygote may be sinless but it is hardly immortal. If you are talking about some "pre-birth spirit" fine and dandy, but that doesn't answer the question of how sin caused death. The "pre-birth" spirit "sinned" by being born?

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I don't think you can get around this by going with a metaphorical Adam. It seems Paul didn't view Adam as a metaphor. And even if he did, then Christ is saving us from what exactly?

 

[jmdrake]

Thanks for the reply, but if one accepts Adam as a historical figure, then one disallows for the possibility of evolution. If one accepts Adam as metaphor, then the conversation can continue.

A metaphor for what exactly?

 

[AFPVet]

A zygote may be sinless but it is hardly immortal. If you are talking about some "pre-birth spirit" fine and dandy, but that doesn't answer the question of how sin caused death. The "pre-birth" spirit "sinned" by being born?

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I don't think you can get around this by going with a metaphorical Adam. It seems Paul didn't view Adam as a metaphor. And even if he did, then Christ is saving us from what exactly?

Well, by knowing both good and evil, Adam and Eve chose to fall short by their own free will. This may have caused the knowledge to be tattooed onto the diversified DNA within Eve and passed down. Yes, spiritually, we are clean; however, the flesh is not—due to the aforementioned theory. This is what I got out of it....

 

[jmdrake]

Well, by knowing both good and evil, Adam and Eve chose to fall short by their own free will. This may have caused the knowledge to be tattooed onto the diversified DNA within Eve and passed down. Yes, spiritually, we are clean; however, the flesh is not—due to the aforementioned theory. This is what I got out of it....

Yes. But "otherone" isn't willing to go with the assumption that Adam and Eve were historical figures. So the zygote is sinful already because....?