How can anyone say screw Rush for not letting Rand Play their music

Rush sucks anyway, jesus.

I've got an eclectic collection (to say the least), yet you will not find a single rush album in the mix.

Seriously, fuck Rush.
 
Last edited:
Rush has always been upfront about coming from the Ayn Rand/Objectivist school of Libertarianism. Ayn Rand believed strongly in IP. Most Austrians don't. It is a a minor dispute in the grand scheme of things. Rush is a great band, and they are one of the few Rock Bands in history that have consistently pushed a pro-liberty, pro-freedom agenda. Rush agrees with us on 99% of the issues. They are among a handful of high profile libertarian artists in the music world. To rag on them for enforcing something everyone has always known they believed in is petty and shortsighted.
 
Boycotts of products are a free market alternative. Rand Paul supporters could theoretically say "screw Rush" CD's and related products. Not saying they should. Not saying they shouldn't.
 
Rush has always been upfront about coming from the Ayn Rand/Objectivist school of Libertarianism. Ayn Rand believed strongly in IP. Most Austrians don't. It is a a minor dispute in the grand scheme of things. Rush is a great band, and they are one of the few Rock Bands in history that have consistently pushed a pro-liberty, pro-freedom agenda. Rush agrees with us on 99% of the issues. They are among a handful of high profile libertarian artists in the music world. To rag on them for enforcing something everyone has always known they believed in is petty and shortsighted.

Bingo.

Rush aren't the bad guys. They're just a bit up their asses about their work, which is completely fine with me considering the consistent effort they put into their music.

The band believes in most of the things we believe in too.

We shouldn't demonize those who agree with us, we bitch about Ben Stein and Arthur Laffer laughing at Peter Schiff, and here some are bitching at a band because they don't want their music being played for a political campaign.

And again to lighten the mood, a song...

YouTube - La Villa Strangiato (Rush in Rio)
 
The way I see it, Rand didn't financially benefit from using Rush's tunes as he could've chosen any of the other songs/bands out there. What Rand did do, is put Rush back on the map in the minds of many ordinary republicans that might have long given up on caring about/listening to them. Not to mention the younger part of the crowd that had little or no impression of Rush as a band.

Although, as someone else mentioned, copyright is that one percentile where traditional libertarian-constitutionalists disagree with their voluntarist counterparts. Like Badnarik recently said, stop the debating!! Jk, carry on..
 
The way I see it, Rand didn't financially benefit from using Rush's tunes as he could've chosen any of the other songs/bands out there. What Rand did do, is put Rush back on the map in the minds of many ordinary republicans that might have long given up on caring about/listening to them. Not to mention the younger part of the crowd that had little or no impression of Rush as a band.

True. But it wouldn't take many emails ('dude! I've listened to you for ever! NOw I se3e your racists!') before the new exposure becomes more trouble than it is worth.

That said, intellectual property should not be en-forced, by force.

Why don't lead singers sue the fans in the crowd who are singing along? What if someone has a cell phone recorder on in their pocket while doing it, and shares the recording with another?

Enforcement of IP stifles innovation. Consider this:

I'm in writer's block and a singer puts out a song on the radio. The lyrics speak to me. 'I want to cover that song!' I want to add a Run-DMC beat and kick it up a notch. My heart sings, but oops, illegal.

Besides IP eforcement being impractical and stifling innovation, it is immoral. The simple issuance and enforcement of the patent paperwork in a state society requires funding/taxation/theft.

Now consider the perspective of the musician.

http://blog.mises.org/11689/doing-business-the-grateful-dead-way/

The Dead recognized that allowing fans to record for free widened their audience and the band became one of the most profitable groups in history. The band’s lyricist, John Perry Barlow, went on to become an Internet guru.
Barlow wrote in Wired in 1994 that in the information economy, “the best way to raise demand for your product is to give it away.” He explained to Joshua Green of the Atlantic: “What people today are beginning to realize is what became obvious to us back then–the important correlation is the one between familiarity and value, not scarcity and value. Adam Smith taught that the scarcer you make something, the more valuable it becomes. In the physical world, that works beautifully. But we couldn’t regulate [taping at] our shows, and you can’t online. The Internet doesn’t behave that way. But here’s the thing: if I give my song away to 20 people, and they give it to 20 people, pretty soon everybody knows me, and my value as a creator is dramatically enhanced. That was the value proposition with the Dead.”


Read more: Doing business The Grateful Dead way — Mises Economics Blog http://blog.mises.org/11689/doing-business-the-grateful-dead-way/#ixzz0pwdNKIri

Budding musicians need exposure far more than they need IP enforcement. Can you imagine spending your first $100 on a lawyer instead of on 100 CD's to pass out at a show? Less people would hear the music.

Established musicians do not need exposure nearly as much (but as the Grateful Dead model shows, it is still more valuable than a lawyer). However, some musicians, when they think about pirating, they think 'lost profits'.

But as we know, competition drives prices down until they are no longer inflated.

Though it has been a shock to the stuffed suit music industry puppeteers, fans would not pay $15.99 if they did not have to.

Now are the musicians who are mad about pirating being selfish? Sort of.

If a musician has a profit motive, it's not about the art. That's okay, but it does tend to result in a watering down of the industry, where the big market becomes 13-16 yr olds who are bad with money, don't know how to fileshare, and wouldn't know good music if it hit em in the head.

But the key here is, musicians hear about all the money they are gonna make, all this. But they are often bad with money, and need a money manager. There goes a percentage. And the record companies take a cut. And the ticketsalesmen, the venue, etc. They all deserve compensation for the service they provide.

But IP enforcement has made all these services come at an inflated cost - and in fact musicians in particular make a very low percentage of the money fans spend on them. This need not be the case.

Now all the tools are available that these services are no longer needed, or would come at a much lower cost, or in a different form.

- Live internet video concerts
- Websites cost like $50/year
- Upload mp3's and charge whatever you want, paypal shopping cart, EZ
- Sell signatures/autographed merch
- Do live in-home concerts for rich people
- Cut 'exclusive' single remixes per request with customized lyrics/ chording patterns for rich people

Smarter people would come up with more. But the industry is slow to transition because of IP. We begin to see that enforcement itself is uneccesary, slow to adapt, and stifling of innovative ways to solve problems without aggressive violence.

It's beginning to happen:
http://www.routenote.com
http://www.reaper.fm/purchase.php

Services like this will free the artist from the inflated percentages they pay money managers and paper shufflers.

/Play your music for some freakin hippies and take donations already rant
 
Last edited:
Also:

If I put out a CD, and someone copies it and undercuts my price, then what?

Well, if that person is making a profit, that means my price is inflated. I drop my price. I also add my autograph, a free sticker, and membership to my bongo circle. Beat that imposters!

Status quo, a few monolithic distribution companies can make any musician famous they want. It's not about the quality of music anymore - it's about how many impressionable, fiscally irresponsible people will buy a short skirt.

Competition, as opposed to monopoly law, solves that.
 
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density at any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property."
- Thomas Jefferson​
 
Playing an entire song recorded by another band, (not even your own instruments) isn't simply "an idea".

You are lawyering your way out of a moral issue.

Have you any moral concern for others? Or is Ayn right, libertarianism is a bastardization of Objectivism, the politics without any of the moral foundation.


I'm boycotting your hypocrisy and ignorance.
 
Read Kinessala's aganst IP.
http://mises.org/daily/books/against.pdf
The basic problem with IP is that it claims ownership over actual scarce resources. The "creator" is now dictating to me certain things I'm not allowed to do with my own property.
Tracy

Thank you for pointing out the conflict between the two forms of property. That seems to be the nut, and I had never thought of it that way. I read all 70 pages of that document, and although I don't agree with many of the author's conclusions, it's a good synopsis of the debate among libertarians.

You're right that intellectual property is constitutional. But then so is state enforced theft. The constitution isn't perfect in its protection of liberty, and where it's wrong, we should oppose it.

Well, my gut feeling is to get the country back to constitutional principles before we try to improve the constitution. That's a large part of why I ran for office and why I support Rand Paul, a self-described "constitutional conservative."
 
Playing an entire song recorded by another band, (not even your own instruments) isn't simply "an idea".

True, but it is a physical representation of an idea. And when it was duplicated, the idea was spread - at no cost to the original artist.

Does the artist want people to enjoy his art? Or is he providing a 'product' for 'consumption'?

You are lawyering your way out of a moral issue.

Who?

The moral issue, as always, is independent of the law. It could be immoral to violate the confidence of a friend who shared an invention idea with me by profiting off of it, for instance. But that is not a legal issue.

Have you any moral concern for others? Or is Ayn right, libertarianism is a bastardization of Objectivism, the politics without any of the moral foundation.

Again, morality and law are separate. Law attempts to reflect morality, but always fails, as it is made of words, but life is not.

I'm boycotting your hypocrisy and ignorance.

Rock on. Whose?
 
Your name is ironic, because the constitution specifically supports intellectual property rights. What would be the conservative or libertarian basis for claiming that intellectual property rights should not exist? I agree that intellectual property law has been abused (by corporations in concert with activist judges), but I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water.

Technically speaking, the Constitution does not support "intellectual property rights." That's actually a new term coined by the copyright industry in recent years, and it was created solely to manipulate public opinion about the purpose of copyrights and patents. The term was created as copyright industry propaganda.

The Constitution actually says, "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." In short, it authorizes and supports patents and copyrights, so long as they are of limited duration (and the constant copyright extensions that Congress has given at the behest of Disney have undermined the latter stipulation). This is not because they are the author/publisher's "intellectual property," but it is instead a mere means to an end, which is the collective progress of the science and the arts. It's a bit ironic, but copyrights and patents were invented for collectivist reasons, not individualist ones, and retrofitting individualist reasons for them ends up undermining the individualist reasons not to have them. ;)

Almost everyone here agrees with you that copyright and patent law needs to change, because it has become an absurd corporatist racket that's stifling rather than promoting progress. However, from a libertarian property rights point of view, some would argue that the entire idea needs to be scrapped, because "intellectual property" inherently infringes upon physical property rights. The two are incompatible, and furthermore, "intellectual property" cannot be strictly enforced without an ever-growing police state. (This is why the recording industry is constantly lobbying for more and more laws, including those which put the burden of policing copyrights on ISP's, search engines, etc.). There are also utilitarian arguments about how state-granted intellectual monopolies necessarily stifle progress and innovation in the typical case as well (not just the extreme case that we have now), contrary to the beliefs of the founders. Books on this include Against Intellectual Property and Against Intellectual Monopoly.

This isn't to say that authors, inventors, etc. don't deserve reimbursement for their works; it's just to say that making it law is dangerous, counterproductive towards progress, and contradictory to physical property rights. Personally, I view it a lot like tipping waiters and waitresses: A fair person wouldn't think to stiff a good server, and you should certainly tip, but that doesn't mean it should be the law. As for the title question: I believe it should be legal for Rand to say, "HAHA LOL, SCREW YOU, RUSH! I'M PLAYING YOUR MUSIC ANYWAY!" but it would be an incredibly dick move, and any blowback from it would be wholly earned. (Trademarks would probably still be enforced in a libertarian world though, because usurping someone else's name and logo and selling your goods/services under their banner is a form of fraud...as is plagiarism.)

You might still disagree even after reading up on the argument against "intellectual property," but in any case it's still strong enough that it would be unfair for you to dismiss it outright.
 
Last edited:
There is no such thing as intellectual "property".

The US Constitution authorizes Congress to grant specific privileges to authors of creative works (copyrights), inventors (patents), and commercial entities (trademarks) for a limited time.

Ideas are not owned by anyone. If a creative idea is generated inside your head, it is granted protection by the federal government as soon as it is fixed in a tangible medium of expression. You might own the medium, but you do not own the idea, nor do you own the expression of that idea. But again the government grants you some specific privileges, specifically the exclusive control over copying, distribution, transmission, performance, broadcast, attribution, etc. Once a certain amount of time passes the government privilege expires and then your expression of that idea enters the "public domain" where it becomes unprotected and anyone is free to do whatever they want with it.


It might seem like a fine line, but trust me, it's not. I work in the music industry, I engineer recording and concerts for a living.
 
You really do reveal your own hypocrisy when you say you have every right to take someone's work and use it for your own public benefit.
Again, no one owns music or other art (unless you are referring to the actual medium on which it is contained. But be mindful of the idea/expression and medium dichotomy.


It really is an argument for collective rule.
Yes the prevailing idea was that the government would protect authors and inventors by giving them special privileges for a specific amount of time. All of society would benefit by encouraging authors and inventors to churn out ideas (or expressions thereof).

Thus the governmental protections would provide an incentive for art and science to be generated within the country.


And each of you has failed to see the irony in denouncing the rights of one in order to defend someone who is promoting individual rights. Nevermind the laws. This is an issue of respect and morality.
There are no rights involved here. Nor is there any morality - it's not a moral issue.

The idea of "intellectual property" is a legal fiction. Remember the government can't grant rights, it can only grant privileges.
 
Back
Top