Hi fellow lovers of liberty!
It has been quite some time since I have stomped around thes grounds that surround the tree of liberty.
So, I happened to get myself entangled in a debate on Facebook ( I try not to do this often..) and it is in regards to the burqa ban in France being upheld by the European courts.
Can I get some input on this? I'm trying to make the most pointedly pointed points I can in the limited time I allow myself but don't seem to be gaining any ground. It would be of help in hopefully convincing others, planting the seeds at least and to improve myself.
I am debating those who self-prescribe themselves as Quran-only followers of Islam. They eschew hadiths (you know, the kind of stuff Neocons use to paint Islam as a religion of violence) and rally against anti-blasphemy laws such as stoning against adulterers. They also try to fight against religious innovations such as the BURQA that can only be justified in these extra Quranic resources called the Hadith. They definitely speak out against the enforcement of certain behavior in 3rd world "Islamic" states.
Yet they are supporting their own anti-balsphemy laws through the Burqa ban! But besides convincing them of this contradiction, I need help to help them connect the dots to liberty and natural law.
I myself am a Quran only supporter as well, but I see that mankind has built into them this inherent ability to become what they abhor without even knowing it.
Here it is:
ORIGINAL POSTER IS Maniza, Surnames are redacted for privacy.
BBC World News
European Court upholds French full veil ban http://bbc.in/TyPtMS
A case was brought by a 24-year-old French woman, who argued that the ban on wearing the veil in public violated her freedom of religion and expression.
French law says nobody can wear in a public space clothing intended to conceal the face. The penalty for doing so can be a 150-euro fine ($205).
LikeLike • • Share
• Hawkins Klan, Ramla Farah, Liphe Guru and 7 others like this.
•
Rafi Omy This ruling violates liberty.
21 hours ago • Like
•
Muhd Kabir See the terrorists that's exactly how they conceal their faces to commit evil. if it is not religious obedience base on uncritical understanding covering one's face in public is to me an act of savagery.
20 hours ago • Like • 5
•
Rafi Omy Peace. If it is a personal decision then no one should interfere with it especially through law, as law is always backed by force.
20 hours ago • Like
•
Salman Concealing your identity in public is not liberty.
20 hours ago • Like • 4
•
Gyan Go and live in a country/place where you can observe your religious oddees..
20 hours ago • Edited • Like • 3
•
Zirqa Rafi Omy peace. If it is a personal decision then please respect my personal decision to flog those who wear this attire, afterall, it is a personal decision?...
17 hours ago • Like • 2
•
Yasmin I don't see this as an a issue of religious freedom or personal choice in attire. This is about public safety. A criminal can cover her face, commit a crime in public and get away with it as no one can ID her.
15 hours ago • Like • 2
•
Maniza It's happened in Denmark ! They had burqa a on and stole from banks and another things it scares kids!
15 hours ago • Edited • Like • 2
•
Rafi Omy Peace. That's dangerous thinking sister Zirqa. In such an example, You are unilaterally committing violence against another. You are the one violating the non aggression principle, the Golden Rule.
I'm sorry, but you are never going to nurture a moral society through positivism. You can't legislate morality.
You treat ignorance with intellectual discourse, not flogging (I know that was but an example but the ultimate result of gov action is violence).
14 hours ago • Like
•
Rafi Omy Sister Yasmin, your personal opinion should stay as such, a personal opinion and not a lifestyle edict for someone else.
This is the danger of democracy, the mobs rule over the slight minority and rights are subject to fear mongering.
14 hours ago • Like
•
•
Rafi Omy With ALL DUE RESPECT. Peace.
14 hours ago • Like
•
Yasmin Rafi, when lifestyle choices violates the rights of other's safety then it is a public issue and not personal. I think we seem to misunderstand the meaning of democracy. There are rules of society as set forth by the government to ensure the safety of their citizens.
13 hours ago • Like • 1
•
Yasmin If wearing clothes goes against my expression of self and personal freedom, should society be ok with my lifestyle choice of going nude in public?
13 hours ago • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy Democracy in its purest form or definition is rule by the majority, even if it qualifies to be the majority by the smallest degree.
It is mob rule and rights are vulnerable to fleeting whims and an impressionable public. It nurtures class tensions.
In contrast, a republic is formed to protect the rights of all individuals because all individuals are protected under the law. That means my freedom to speech and self expression is immune from your fears of statistical anomalies coming to pass. In theory, because all governments are dangerous servants that fight and claw to become fearful masters.
13 hours ago • Like
•
Rafi Omy Yasmin, will you rob a bank in the nude like the burqa wearers have an apparent propensity to do?
I'm personally for an anarcho-capitalist based society. There is no authority above me but God. Private property rules set by their owners would take care of the nudists and burqa question without violating rights.
13 hours ago • Like • 1
•
Zirqa But those rules only apply if people obey, Rafi Omy. I think your perception of what society should be and it should run is rather naive. Burqa wearers think they are above you and your way of life. Sometimes the only way is brute force to make all trouble makers realise we, the majority civilised folk, mean business. Sometimes moderate approaches don't work.
10 hrs • Like • 2
•
Yasmin Rafi, let's not mix things. If you say that burqa wearers have the right to express themselves in public sighting freedom of expression then so does a nudist who should have the same rights of expression.
5 hrs • Like • 1
•
Hawkins Muhd Kabir Umar Adabara "See the terrorists that's exactly how they conceal their faces to commit evil. if it is not religious obedience base on uncritical understanding covering one's face in public is to me an act of savagery." AGREED
3 hrs • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy Zirqa, you're generalizing to a LARGE degree. Do you know what goes on in the mind of every individual who wears burqas? It doesn't matter what their mindset is about their fashion! It does not materially affect you! I guess the Jews were put in their proper places when the Nazis badged them up? After all, they held themselves above the rest, no? Peace.
2 hrs • Like
•
Hawkins Rafi Omy, your defense of the blaspheme/corruption God mandates the oppression of women and that they should be covered is appalling on many different levels. Shame on you.
2 hrs • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy Hawkins, so you are claiming that even if an individual wears a burqa by choice they are oppressing themselves? And you sound no better than the hadith enforcers, you are enforcing your will on others. It is as simple as that. Please justify in the Quran where it says you may force your will upon others based upon your beliefs.
And just for full disclosure, I will be the one to defend the indefensible. Whether you be a bootlegger, a gay, or a burqa wearer, I will defend your right to choose your lifestyle so long as you as an INDIVIDUAL, not a GROUP (please refrain from collectivism) then you are free to go. Even someone who spews hate speech against me, is free to do so. If you just fight ignorance with debate and truth, it will go away. That is God's instruction, to use the truth?
2 hrs • Edited • Like
•
Hawkins Walk into a Bank with a ski mask and see if they agree with you, ROFL. Anyone who thinks covering themselves is mandated by God is lying to and oppressing themselves...exactly. Again you support for blaspheme and mental bondage is SICK and pathetic.
1 hr • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy You're confused. I have been very clear, I support one's right to act as they please, not the burqa itself. You need to understand that it is okay for a person to do that so long as they do not injure anyone else with their behavior. You have ironically grown into an anti-blasphemer that we find in third world countries.
1 hr • Like
•
Hawkins "It is as simple as that. Please justify in the Quran where it says you may force your will upon others based upon your beliefs." You are just brain washed and misrepresenting the issue. Do you think you can run around butt-naked in society and it oppressive & un-Quranic for people to prevent & jail you for doing so? YOU are helping people push corruption and attribute to Allah things he never said. I do not support the oppression of women or anyone running around society like a thief in the Night. I tell you what, go into a Bank TODAY with a ski mask on and let us all know how it works out for you, LOL
1 hr • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy You are confusing private property rights and law. Please separate the two. You are also confusing a cultural expression with something that is not.
1 hr • Like
•
Rafi Omy It's kind of hypocritical, Hawkins. You support women's rights yet you do not like the individual's right to choose. That is a clear contradiction. Yet you try to throw red herrings such as "a masked man walks into a bank", where obviously there are certain expectations from patrons and providers of service on PRIVATE PROPERTY.
1 hr • Like
•
Hawkins Cultural Expression? Boy you are even willing to lie to support their misguided corruption? It is merely the disobedient Mullahs/Sects corruption and oppression of women FOUND NO WHERE in the Quran. You know why they are wearing the hijab and you are supporting and defending their misguided blaspheme. Which is horrible considering those who are not knowledgable about Islam will mislead. It is ignorant and pathetic at best.
1 hr • Edited • Like • 1
•
Hawkins Fortunately you are the odd man out and are the only one in this post naive (to push it nicely) enough to think your defending someone's "rights".
1 hr • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy Nope, I do not lie, thanks for the ad hominem against my character. I do not support burqas themselves. I think it is silly in the nicest way of putting, and an evil innovation from I am sure Satan. But I don't care, I am going to defend the burqa wearer the same way I will defend the prostitute or the same way I will defend the Jew or the boot legger.
1 hr • Edited • Like
•
Rafi Omy I am actually not the odd man out. Look up libertarianism and a word called "liberty". The thing is, is that you have a statist attitude and you want to mold the behavior of others based on what you think is blasephemous or not.
1 hr • Edited • Like
•
Rafi Omy I don't know how you can try to seek truth from the Quran and only the Quran and eschew hadith/sunnat, the former which teaches tolerance as a bilateral concept, end up with your mindset. It's intriguing! I am happy to debate despite any personal attacks. Your reasoning shouldn't be so clouded by emotion bro.
1 hr • Edited • Like
•
Hawkins Boy you have some real problems. You put a burqa wearing, Jew, prostitute and boot legger on the same level? Your rights are no longer rights when you live in a society and said rights impose on the rights and security of others. Please educate yourself BEFORE you post.
1 hr • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy I never put them on the same level. I put the fact that they are individuals on the same level. You need to stop grouping people.
1 hr • Like
•
Rafi Omy Hawkins, you are pretty much saying what I am saying when you said " Your rights are no longer rights when you live in a society and said rights impose on the rights and security of others." It wasn't too long ago when the Jew was perceived as a threat to the Nazis. But that was through irrational fear mongering. Just like when I told my nonmuslim American friends who bought into the fear mongering that no Muslim boogeyman was hiding under their pillowcase after 9/11, there is no burqa wearer hiding under yours.
Rights are what you do so long as you do not commit violence or impede upon another person's rights. If I wore a burqa, I am not violating any of your rights. It would be creepy though, being a man and all.
1 hr • Edited • Like
•
Rafi Omy Look, I can't spend any more time on this but please read The Law by Frederic Bastiat. And please study Natural Law, or God's Law. Our Rights come from God, not government. So governments should be formed with this most true relationship in mind. It is all connected.
1 hr • Like
•
Maniza It is right of ANY society that is based on the protection and safety of it's citizens to protect them. The Burqa is an abomination of both the Quran principles and the society that wants security for it's citizens to ban this monstrosity
1 hr • Like • 1
•
Hawkins "I never put them on the same level. I put the fact that they are individuals on the same level. You need to stop grouping people." YOU are the one who grouped them together. Why did you throw in the Jew with the prostitute? To add drama and try to support the notion it is wrong to not allow people to dress like crooks, hide their identity, stoke fear into people and pose a security threat? Again, when you live in a society your rights end when they impose on the security and rights of others. Try to dress like a police officer because you think it is your right t do so and see how that works out for you as well, lol. Do you also not allow your women education, to drive and leave the house without a male escort? The ones who support said oppression, sexism and pathetic ignorance also claim it is their religious right to do so....
1 hr • Like • 1
•
Hawkins Yes, you are the odd man out here. I have not heard anyone supporting the notion someone walking around in society hiding their identity like a common thief is exercising their liberty. You just troll you pathetic indoctrination without answering any of the relevant points. Do you also believe it is abuse of your supposed "Liberties" you can not run around naked or go banking with a ski mask?
1 hr • Like
•
Hawkins "It is right of ANY society that is based on the protection and safety of it's citizens to protect them. The Burqa is an abomination of both the Quran principles and the society that wants security for it's citizens to ban this monstrosity" EXACTLY!
1 hr • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy Lol, dude, please cease from treating every comment I make as isolated and separate from each other. I was always speaking of individual's rights not collectivist's rights that you were espousing. No, there is no drama, why are you throwing in these red herrings? It's all objective. What threat does dressing as police officer pose? What if was in protest of police brutality? I just created an exception for you.
Maniza Do you believe in land easements and eminent domain as well? If I, "Society", wanted to build a road and your land was in the way, do I, "SOciety", (a word with serious epistemological implications) have a right to confiscate your land at "fair market value"? It is for the good of society no? And if it benefits society, it augments its security, no?
1 hr • Like
•
Rafi Omy Hawkins, it seems that the circles you participate in are quite insulated. I try to interact with any individual who has different ideas. That includes interacting with you. It is healthy.
1 hr • Like
•
Maniza Ok I don't think we are gonna get any where with splitting hairs so better to agree to disagree. Rafi the Quran talks of peace and security for it's citizens do you think land grabbing by the state by force is a part of it ? Expropriation should be done by mutual consent and fairness.
1 hr • Like
It has been quite some time since I have stomped around thes grounds that surround the tree of liberty.
So, I happened to get myself entangled in a debate on Facebook ( I try not to do this often..) and it is in regards to the burqa ban in France being upheld by the European courts.
Can I get some input on this? I'm trying to make the most pointedly pointed points I can in the limited time I allow myself but don't seem to be gaining any ground. It would be of help in hopefully convincing others, planting the seeds at least and to improve myself.
I am debating those who self-prescribe themselves as Quran-only followers of Islam. They eschew hadiths (you know, the kind of stuff Neocons use to paint Islam as a religion of violence) and rally against anti-blasphemy laws such as stoning against adulterers. They also try to fight against religious innovations such as the BURQA that can only be justified in these extra Quranic resources called the Hadith. They definitely speak out against the enforcement of certain behavior in 3rd world "Islamic" states.
Yet they are supporting their own anti-balsphemy laws through the Burqa ban! But besides convincing them of this contradiction, I need help to help them connect the dots to liberty and natural law.
I myself am a Quran only supporter as well, but I see that mankind has built into them this inherent ability to become what they abhor without even knowing it.
Here it is:
ORIGINAL POSTER IS Maniza, Surnames are redacted for privacy.
BBC World News
European Court upholds French full veil ban http://bbc.in/TyPtMS
A case was brought by a 24-year-old French woman, who argued that the ban on wearing the veil in public violated her freedom of religion and expression.
French law says nobody can wear in a public space clothing intended to conceal the face. The penalty for doing so can be a 150-euro fine ($205).
LikeLike • • Share
• Hawkins Klan, Ramla Farah, Liphe Guru and 7 others like this.
•
Rafi Omy This ruling violates liberty.
21 hours ago • Like
•
Muhd Kabir See the terrorists that's exactly how they conceal their faces to commit evil. if it is not religious obedience base on uncritical understanding covering one's face in public is to me an act of savagery.
20 hours ago • Like • 5
•
Rafi Omy Peace. If it is a personal decision then no one should interfere with it especially through law, as law is always backed by force.
20 hours ago • Like
•
Salman Concealing your identity in public is not liberty.
20 hours ago • Like • 4
•
Gyan Go and live in a country/place where you can observe your religious oddees..
20 hours ago • Edited • Like • 3
•
Zirqa Rafi Omy peace. If it is a personal decision then please respect my personal decision to flog those who wear this attire, afterall, it is a personal decision?...
17 hours ago • Like • 2
•
Yasmin I don't see this as an a issue of religious freedom or personal choice in attire. This is about public safety. A criminal can cover her face, commit a crime in public and get away with it as no one can ID her.
15 hours ago • Like • 2
•
Maniza It's happened in Denmark ! They had burqa a on and stole from banks and another things it scares kids!
15 hours ago • Edited • Like • 2
•
Rafi Omy Peace. That's dangerous thinking sister Zirqa. In such an example, You are unilaterally committing violence against another. You are the one violating the non aggression principle, the Golden Rule.
I'm sorry, but you are never going to nurture a moral society through positivism. You can't legislate morality.
You treat ignorance with intellectual discourse, not flogging (I know that was but an example but the ultimate result of gov action is violence).
14 hours ago • Like
•
Rafi Omy Sister Yasmin, your personal opinion should stay as such, a personal opinion and not a lifestyle edict for someone else.
This is the danger of democracy, the mobs rule over the slight minority and rights are subject to fear mongering.
14 hours ago • Like
•
•
Rafi Omy With ALL DUE RESPECT. Peace.
14 hours ago • Like
•
Yasmin Rafi, when lifestyle choices violates the rights of other's safety then it is a public issue and not personal. I think we seem to misunderstand the meaning of democracy. There are rules of society as set forth by the government to ensure the safety of their citizens.
13 hours ago • Like • 1
•
Yasmin If wearing clothes goes against my expression of self and personal freedom, should society be ok with my lifestyle choice of going nude in public?
13 hours ago • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy Democracy in its purest form or definition is rule by the majority, even if it qualifies to be the majority by the smallest degree.
It is mob rule and rights are vulnerable to fleeting whims and an impressionable public. It nurtures class tensions.
In contrast, a republic is formed to protect the rights of all individuals because all individuals are protected under the law. That means my freedom to speech and self expression is immune from your fears of statistical anomalies coming to pass. In theory, because all governments are dangerous servants that fight and claw to become fearful masters.
13 hours ago • Like
•
Rafi Omy Yasmin, will you rob a bank in the nude like the burqa wearers have an apparent propensity to do?
I'm personally for an anarcho-capitalist based society. There is no authority above me but God. Private property rules set by their owners would take care of the nudists and burqa question without violating rights.
13 hours ago • Like • 1
•
Zirqa But those rules only apply if people obey, Rafi Omy. I think your perception of what society should be and it should run is rather naive. Burqa wearers think they are above you and your way of life. Sometimes the only way is brute force to make all trouble makers realise we, the majority civilised folk, mean business. Sometimes moderate approaches don't work.
10 hrs • Like • 2
•
Yasmin Rafi, let's not mix things. If you say that burqa wearers have the right to express themselves in public sighting freedom of expression then so does a nudist who should have the same rights of expression.
5 hrs • Like • 1
•
Hawkins Muhd Kabir Umar Adabara "See the terrorists that's exactly how they conceal their faces to commit evil. if it is not religious obedience base on uncritical understanding covering one's face in public is to me an act of savagery." AGREED
3 hrs • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy Zirqa, you're generalizing to a LARGE degree. Do you know what goes on in the mind of every individual who wears burqas? It doesn't matter what their mindset is about their fashion! It does not materially affect you! I guess the Jews were put in their proper places when the Nazis badged them up? After all, they held themselves above the rest, no? Peace.
2 hrs • Like
•
Hawkins Rafi Omy, your defense of the blaspheme/corruption God mandates the oppression of women and that they should be covered is appalling on many different levels. Shame on you.
2 hrs • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy Hawkins, so you are claiming that even if an individual wears a burqa by choice they are oppressing themselves? And you sound no better than the hadith enforcers, you are enforcing your will on others. It is as simple as that. Please justify in the Quran where it says you may force your will upon others based upon your beliefs.
And just for full disclosure, I will be the one to defend the indefensible. Whether you be a bootlegger, a gay, or a burqa wearer, I will defend your right to choose your lifestyle so long as you as an INDIVIDUAL, not a GROUP (please refrain from collectivism) then you are free to go. Even someone who spews hate speech against me, is free to do so. If you just fight ignorance with debate and truth, it will go away. That is God's instruction, to use the truth?
2 hrs • Edited • Like
•
Hawkins Walk into a Bank with a ski mask and see if they agree with you, ROFL. Anyone who thinks covering themselves is mandated by God is lying to and oppressing themselves...exactly. Again you support for blaspheme and mental bondage is SICK and pathetic.
1 hr • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy You're confused. I have been very clear, I support one's right to act as they please, not the burqa itself. You need to understand that it is okay for a person to do that so long as they do not injure anyone else with their behavior. You have ironically grown into an anti-blasphemer that we find in third world countries.
1 hr • Like
•
Hawkins "It is as simple as that. Please justify in the Quran where it says you may force your will upon others based upon your beliefs." You are just brain washed and misrepresenting the issue. Do you think you can run around butt-naked in society and it oppressive & un-Quranic for people to prevent & jail you for doing so? YOU are helping people push corruption and attribute to Allah things he never said. I do not support the oppression of women or anyone running around society like a thief in the Night. I tell you what, go into a Bank TODAY with a ski mask on and let us all know how it works out for you, LOL
1 hr • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy You are confusing private property rights and law. Please separate the two. You are also confusing a cultural expression with something that is not.
1 hr • Like
•
Rafi Omy It's kind of hypocritical, Hawkins. You support women's rights yet you do not like the individual's right to choose. That is a clear contradiction. Yet you try to throw red herrings such as "a masked man walks into a bank", where obviously there are certain expectations from patrons and providers of service on PRIVATE PROPERTY.
1 hr • Like
•
Hawkins Cultural Expression? Boy you are even willing to lie to support their misguided corruption? It is merely the disobedient Mullahs/Sects corruption and oppression of women FOUND NO WHERE in the Quran. You know why they are wearing the hijab and you are supporting and defending their misguided blaspheme. Which is horrible considering those who are not knowledgable about Islam will mislead. It is ignorant and pathetic at best.
1 hr • Edited • Like • 1
•
Hawkins Fortunately you are the odd man out and are the only one in this post naive (to push it nicely) enough to think your defending someone's "rights".
1 hr • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy Nope, I do not lie, thanks for the ad hominem against my character. I do not support burqas themselves. I think it is silly in the nicest way of putting, and an evil innovation from I am sure Satan. But I don't care, I am going to defend the burqa wearer the same way I will defend the prostitute or the same way I will defend the Jew or the boot legger.
1 hr • Edited • Like
•
Rafi Omy I am actually not the odd man out. Look up libertarianism and a word called "liberty". The thing is, is that you have a statist attitude and you want to mold the behavior of others based on what you think is blasephemous or not.
1 hr • Edited • Like
•
Rafi Omy I don't know how you can try to seek truth from the Quran and only the Quran and eschew hadith/sunnat, the former which teaches tolerance as a bilateral concept, end up with your mindset. It's intriguing! I am happy to debate despite any personal attacks. Your reasoning shouldn't be so clouded by emotion bro.
1 hr • Edited • Like
•
Hawkins Boy you have some real problems. You put a burqa wearing, Jew, prostitute and boot legger on the same level? Your rights are no longer rights when you live in a society and said rights impose on the rights and security of others. Please educate yourself BEFORE you post.
1 hr • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy I never put them on the same level. I put the fact that they are individuals on the same level. You need to stop grouping people.
1 hr • Like
•
Rafi Omy Hawkins, you are pretty much saying what I am saying when you said " Your rights are no longer rights when you live in a society and said rights impose on the rights and security of others." It wasn't too long ago when the Jew was perceived as a threat to the Nazis. But that was through irrational fear mongering. Just like when I told my nonmuslim American friends who bought into the fear mongering that no Muslim boogeyman was hiding under their pillowcase after 9/11, there is no burqa wearer hiding under yours.
Rights are what you do so long as you do not commit violence or impede upon another person's rights. If I wore a burqa, I am not violating any of your rights. It would be creepy though, being a man and all.
1 hr • Edited • Like
•
Rafi Omy Look, I can't spend any more time on this but please read The Law by Frederic Bastiat. And please study Natural Law, or God's Law. Our Rights come from God, not government. So governments should be formed with this most true relationship in mind. It is all connected.
1 hr • Like
•
Maniza It is right of ANY society that is based on the protection and safety of it's citizens to protect them. The Burqa is an abomination of both the Quran principles and the society that wants security for it's citizens to ban this monstrosity
1 hr • Like • 1
•
Hawkins "I never put them on the same level. I put the fact that they are individuals on the same level. You need to stop grouping people." YOU are the one who grouped them together. Why did you throw in the Jew with the prostitute? To add drama and try to support the notion it is wrong to not allow people to dress like crooks, hide their identity, stoke fear into people and pose a security threat? Again, when you live in a society your rights end when they impose on the security and rights of others. Try to dress like a police officer because you think it is your right t do so and see how that works out for you as well, lol. Do you also not allow your women education, to drive and leave the house without a male escort? The ones who support said oppression, sexism and pathetic ignorance also claim it is their religious right to do so....
1 hr • Like • 1
•
Hawkins Yes, you are the odd man out here. I have not heard anyone supporting the notion someone walking around in society hiding their identity like a common thief is exercising their liberty. You just troll you pathetic indoctrination without answering any of the relevant points. Do you also believe it is abuse of your supposed "Liberties" you can not run around naked or go banking with a ski mask?
1 hr • Like
•
Hawkins "It is right of ANY society that is based on the protection and safety of it's citizens to protect them. The Burqa is an abomination of both the Quran principles and the society that wants security for it's citizens to ban this monstrosity" EXACTLY!
1 hr • Like • 1
•
Rafi Omy Lol, dude, please cease from treating every comment I make as isolated and separate from each other. I was always speaking of individual's rights not collectivist's rights that you were espousing. No, there is no drama, why are you throwing in these red herrings? It's all objective. What threat does dressing as police officer pose? What if was in protest of police brutality? I just created an exception for you.
Maniza Do you believe in land easements and eminent domain as well? If I, "Society", wanted to build a road and your land was in the way, do I, "SOciety", (a word with serious epistemological implications) have a right to confiscate your land at "fair market value"? It is for the good of society no? And if it benefits society, it augments its security, no?
1 hr • Like
•
Rafi Omy Hawkins, it seems that the circles you participate in are quite insulated. I try to interact with any individual who has different ideas. That includes interacting with you. It is healthy.
1 hr • Like
•
Maniza Ok I don't think we are gonna get any where with splitting hairs so better to agree to disagree. Rafi the Quran talks of peace and security for it's citizens do you think land grabbing by the state by force is a part of it ? Expropriation should be done by mutual consent and fairness.
1 hr • Like
