Kalashnikov Josh
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I'm sure .40 or like you said 10mm would do better than that.
However,9x19 still has its merits in many depts..........its a VERY highly efficient cartridge.
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Help me pick a gun to buy!
- Thread starter bwlibertyman
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I'm sure .40 or like you said 10mm would do better than that.
However,9x19 still has its merits in many depts..........its a VERY highly efficient cartridge.
The OP mentioned the purchase was for home defense. As a first firearm I'd get a shotgun. You can get a defender type shotgun (short barrel, pistol grip if you like, extended magazine tube) for $300.
A pump shotgun is about as easy to use as a revolver, and my guess is the OP mentioned a revolver over a pistol because he is new to firearms and wanted something that was simple to use.
Now, if you ever intend to carry concealed in the future, pistols are more comfortable due to being more slender.
I'd get the inexpensive shotgun now, and then take a handgun self-defense course and decide if revolver or pistol is the way you want to go after that.
I have many a firearm - rifles, shotguns and semi-auto pistols, but only one revolver, a .44 magnum I got used for $250 just for some fun at the range. That's about all it is good for given its size, weight and barrel length.
I keep all my firearms unloaded in a large safe, but in my bedroom in a quick access safe is a loaded (with one in the pipe) Glock 35 with 15+1 Golden Saber .40 S&W hollow points.
I'll take the 16 the Glock gives me to the 6 a revolver gives me any day.
A pump shotgun is about as easy to use as a revolver, and my guess is the OP mentioned a revolver over a pistol because he is new to firearms and wanted something that was simple to use.
Now, if you ever intend to carry concealed in the future, pistols are more comfortable due to being more slender.
I'd get the inexpensive shotgun now, and then take a handgun self-defense course and decide if revolver or pistol is the way you want to go after that.
I have many a firearm - rifles, shotguns and semi-auto pistols, but only one revolver, a .44 magnum I got used for $250 just for some fun at the range. That's about all it is good for given its size, weight and barrel length.
I keep all my firearms unloaded in a large safe, but in my bedroom in a quick access safe is a loaded (with one in the pipe) Glock 35 with 15+1 Golden Saber .40 S&W hollow points.
I'll take the 16 the Glock gives me to the 6 a revolver gives me any day.
A 124 grain +P 9mm has great velocity (and is an excellent round), but at close range I'd take a .45 ACP at 850 fps. It will have better knock down power and the slower velocity of the larger piece of lead will cause the it to bounce around off bones and cause more damage as opposed to a a high velocity round going clean through.
180 grain .40 S&W is one way to get the best of both worlds.
Kalashnikov Josh
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I generally agree with everything you've posted,but one more time-
Handgun rounds do not have "knockdown power",they do not impart physical damage by any other mechanism other than what the bullet physically hits.
They simply do not play in the same ball park as rifle rounds.
Period.
The randomness of a shooting incident will vary,and when a .45ACP will go right thru a person,the 9mm might 'bounce'....its all a matter of chance.
That being said,.45 acp is just as good as 9x19 Para,.40 S&W,.357 Magnum etc at what it does.
Pick your favorite and learn to use it well.(Variety truly is the spice of life!)
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I generally agree with everything you've posted,but one more time-
Handgun rounds do not have "knockdown power",they do not impart physical damage by any other mechanism other than what the bullet physically hits.
They simply do not play in the same ball park as rifle rounds.
Period.
The randomness of a shooting incident will vary,and when a .45ACP will go right thru a person,the 9mm might 'bounce'....its all a matter of chance.
That being said,.45 acp is just as good as 9x19 Para,.40 S&W,.357 Magnum etc at what it does.
Pick your favorite and learn to use it well.(Variety truly is the spice of life!)
This!
I generally agree with everything you've posted,but one more time-
Handgun rounds do not have "knockdown power",they do not impart physical damage by any other mechanism other than what the bullet physically hits.
They simply do not play in the same ball park as rifle rounds.
Period.
The randomness of a shooting incident will vary,and when a .45ACP will go right thru a person,the 9mm might 'bounce'....its all a matter of chance.
That being said,.45 acp is just as good as 9x19 Para,.40 S&W,.357 Magnum etc at what it does.
Pick your favorite and learn to use it well.(Variety truly is the spice of life!)
I don't disagree with what you are saying, though certain rounds in certain circumstances will favor doing one thing over another, though there certainly are no guarantees on what will happen.
The OP wants a firearm for home defense.
The problem with a rifle is their bullets going through walls in apartment complexes and down streets from single family homes if you have to defend yourself, while pistols and shotguns have a lesser likelihood of accidentally harming others outside your dwelling.
Ultimately, it boils down to what you are most comfortable with and shoot best, and I would not say a rifle has no place in home defense. You just have to be more careful of flyers.
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Kalashnikov Josh
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Right.I agree.
For home defense-I think the OP would be better off with a pump action 12 gauge shotgun.
If he's dead set on a handgun,I recommend a semiautomatic 9mm.
But he'll get what he wants.
HOPEFULLY he'll share and tell us all about it when he does!
For home defense-I think the OP would be better off with a pump action 12 gauge shotgun.
If he's dead set on a handgun,I recommend a semiautomatic 9mm.
But he'll get what he wants.
HOPEFULLY he'll share and tell us all about it when he does!
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osan
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D00d, this is is simply not true. ALL rounds produce a temporary cavity. This is a matter of the physics and cannot be avoided. The only difference lies in how much. Any bullet striking flesh is going to generate a shock wave, which in turn produces the TSC. This is true for ALL projectiles hitting such a target. A BB gun will have a very small one and a .44 Mag will have a relatively large one. Shoot an intruder with a 375 H&H and the TSC will be far and away larger still.
Sound advice.
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Good points by all.
While I have rifles, shotguns and a revolver like I said, what I shoot most are pistols and shotguns in IDPA/IPSC and trap, skeet and sporting clays.
My rifles get the least amount of use, though it is the best thing to have in case of civil unrest and possible combat scenarios.
While my primary competition pistol is a 1911 (.45 ACP and .38 super), here is the G35 I keep handy for home defense in action.
Can't have this much fun with a rifle, IMHO.
http://youtu.be/TDP2Qb7FPms
While I have rifles, shotguns and a revolver like I said, what I shoot most are pistols and shotguns in IDPA/IPSC and trap, skeet and sporting clays.
My rifles get the least amount of use, though it is the best thing to have in case of civil unrest and possible combat scenarios.
While my primary competition pistol is a 1911 (.45 ACP and .38 super), here is the G35 I keep handy for home defense in action.
Can't have this much fun with a rifle, IMHO.
http://youtu.be/TDP2Qb7FPms
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VBRonPaulFan
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When I spoke to a guy that owned a local gun shop near me about a pistol for home defense - he recommended a good old fashioned pump action shotgun. The reason was simple - you want to avoid shooting an intruder if possible. If you shoot someone, when the cops show up they take the gun for evidence. You may not get it back for a couple of years. If you hear someone break in, you simply get your shotgun, and pump it once to let whoever is breaking in that you mean business. If that doesn't scare them out, it's hard to miss someone with a shotty.
brushfire
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Yep... for home defense, it's hard to argue with a home cannon like the shotgun
Its a popular choice, but truth be known - the shot pattern on an 18.5" with buck is going to be < 2" in diameter, in close quarters.
Another misconception is that the shot will not penetrate a wall, or not be lethal if it does. Anything that will be powerful enough to stop an attacker, will be powerful enough to penetrate drywall and injure or kill folks on the other side. Always know your backstop.
Personally, I think the handgun is the best tool for home defense, but opinions will vary.
Agreed. There have been many test reports involving the truth about shotgun penetration and pattern. There are a lot of misconception about the various shotgun loads and chokes. Really, the barrel length of a shotgun is of less concern since the propellant is burned up at <14 inches; however, the choke is what is important with the shot pattern.
Well... the best home defense tool is subjective depending on where you live though too. Out in the middle of nowhere, the best home defense tool might be an AR-10
Now back to the author's post... with all of the caliber options thrown out there, the compromise between all of them would be the .40 S&W in the flavor of the Glock 22.
Kalashnikov Josh
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Brother,all due respect,but as I pointed out the TSC of a handgun round,unless its a handgun that propels its projectiles at and above the velocity of a rifle round,lacks the energy to actually be a wounding mechanism.
While "the shock cavity" is a fact,you'll get no argument from me on that,and bigger more powerful rounds do in fact produce bigger TSC phenomena- there is a cut-off point for when the TSC is actually productive in producing wounding- which is the ultimate factor in putting an opponent down.
You can even see the differing profiles of shock cavity in gelatin in the pictures I posted.
But because of many factors,mainly the elasticity of human tissue and the energy of the projectiles' momentum,most handgun rounds cannot be relied upon to do any damage with the temporary shock cavity.
Instead,they damage pretty much what they physically hit.
Think of Glaser Safety Slugs- a round designed entirely around the principle of using the energy of the projectile to effect a "stop".
DISMAL failure,and their only use is as a 'first one or two rounds out' load to try to 'discourage' further aggression when your concerned about over-penetration in your house or whatever.
Now contrast this with the Miami FBI shootout where,ironically as pertaining to this discussion,a 115gr JHP 9x19 bullet was blamed for failure to penetrate and destroy the heart of one of the suspects.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
This is why the 10mm was born.
Far from proving the argument against the 9 para,however,this proves that penetration,and what the bullet actually hits,is much more important,indeed- it is the only thing that actually matters,next to achieving skill at arms(for placement),in combat handgunnery.
This is also where the "12 inch rule" was born.
So in effect-
ANY caliber that can penetrate 12 inches or more with a given load,will do the job.Even the lowly .22 short,as seen in my previous example in prior posts.
With handguns,expansion is icing on the cake,and if you choose a caliber that has issues satisfying the "12 inch rule" as well as expanding,like the little .380 I'm wearing right now,the default is to choose penetration over expansion.This means having to settle for ball loads or maybe finding "something special"=
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127
I have absolutely no worries about trusting the combination of a keltec P3AT size pistol and that particular load with my life.It will penetrate,the flat nose will crush rather than 'slip thru' tissue like FMJ is sometimes said to do,and I believe it would perform better than that lousy 115gr 9 para load the FBI man had in his pistol the day of the infamous Miami Shootout.
If I do what I can to ensure as good placement as possible,and I also play hard with the mentality of "shooting them to the ground",this combination will work.
Same with any kind of handgun/ammo combination- which,by the way,is a MUCH more important thing to be talking about than mere caliber alone.Seriously,the internet would be a better place if people talked about caliber in terms of what loads perform best with a given claiber rather than just having caliber wars that have no real use or bearing on the reality of combat handgunning.
Even the 10mm can be "loaded to fail".Think again- Glaser Safety Slug.
Placement and penetration are the absolute rules to adhere to.
The TSC of a handgun round just does not come into play.
Unless,of course,your handgun is chambered in a rifle round like your .375 H&H.
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Kalashnikov Josh
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A shotgun has the disadvantages of being harder to maneuver around the house with.
But nothing puts em down like a solid hit with 00 buck.If that doesn't work,your dealing with a very rare,very serious problem.
Shotguns also increase the hit probability because of launching multiple projectiles,making them a better choice for close quarters fighting in the dark and by people with limited firearms experience and training.
They have been renowned as a tool for blunting offensive action since the days when the blunderbuss was used to stop boarding parties on wooden wind driven ships.Shotguns are so effective at blunting mass attacks that when used in the trenches of WW1,the Germans,who liked to use mustard gas,actually complained about the shotgun -the Winchester 1897- being a weapon that inflicted cruel and inhumane damage.
They even went so far as to say they would execute as war criminals American soldiers captured while in possession of either a shotgun or shotgun shells.
I cant recall if that actually ever became an issue- I believe the petition to outlaw shotguns in combat was denied.
In my humble opinion,shotguns,as proven by their record,are one of,if not the,most deadliest of close combat weapons.
As for penetration- yes,a load of 00 buck will penetrate SEVERAL layers of drywall,but because of the spherical and extremely lightweight nature of the projectiles being ballistically very inefficient they lose energy rapidly and surprisingly enough will not penetrate like a ball round from your favorite handgun.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
However,they will still do the job quite nicely.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page541.htm
But why not have both a handgun and a shotgun ready for home defense?
All you need to make sure you have is a handgun rig that you can put on even in your underpants- like a shoulder rig,and a sling on your shotgun so you have something to use to transition to your handgun.
Best of both worlds always beats just the one!
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osan
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unless it has a 9" barrel
000?
A slug will seriously ruin one's day even with a vest. May not kill you but it is going to hurt and slow you down.
Agreed, but it should be pointed out that, contrary to popular legend, shotguns must be aimed like any other weapon in order to provide a reasonable likelihood of a good hit. This is particularly true in close quarters such as are found within a typical dwelling. From 20 or 50 feet away, even with a cylinder bore the shot is going to spread very little - probably not more than 2-3 inches. While a whole lot larger an area than a .45, it is still not that difficult to miss a target especially under combat stress.
The best solution is training. As much of it as you can manage.
Closing one's eyes and thinking of England whilst pulling the trigger is not the recommended procedure for defending oneself with any weapon, shotguns included.
cucucachu0000
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Just shoot at the torso, even then you'll be lucky to hit anything. I have a taurus model 66 its a great all steel .357 revolver. It shoots .38 sp and sp+ which is more powerful, you can shoot that first to get used before moving to .357. Its a well built gun I got it for its versatility it shoots 2 size calibers, a well built revolver so its gonna shoot every time, and if u hit someone in the head whith this thing you might put a hole in his head bigger than the bullet will. However I live in NJ and can't walk around with it. Its strictly for home protection, it being small enough to carry wasn't an option. I got the 4 inch which is hard to conceal. You may want a 38 sp with a 2 inch to carry. But find one rated for the sp+ or sp++ for more power. And take a class you have to be real careful with these things.
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