Help me pick a gun to buy!

[Kalashnikov Josh]

To each his own,I preffer either the Browning Hi-Power or any of the worthy clones ( http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/be/fn-browning-hp-e.html ) or something Sig Sauer.CZ is good too.

9x19 Parabellum,of course.

I'm an advocate of high capacity.You can fit more 9mm in a given mag size than any of the other popular fighting calibers.

To address the revolver side of the coin-revolvers are just on the right side of being obsolete in the realm of interpersonal combat and self defense.Besides hunting,nostalgia,and folks who like to tote massive hand cannons like the .44 magnum,semiautomatics give nothing up to revolvers these days.Reliability,capacity,accuracy,concealability,power- all of this can be had with a good semiautomatic.

Why were revolvers invented?
To increase the capacity of a firearm,among other things,but this was the big issue.When the revolver hit the battlefield- it was a game changer,mostly because of this.
Do we generally see people carrying single shot weapons for self defense or in combat?
No?
So why were semiauto handguns invented?
To increase firepower over revolvers.

In some peoples perspective (including mine) the tiny .380 pocket rockets like the KelTec P3AT,when used with a good cartridge like something along the lines of Remington's Golden Sabre 102gr or Buffalo Bore's +P 100gr Hard Cast Flat Nose gives the old .38 snubbie a run for its money by having better concealability,almost equal ballistics when compared to the standard .38 Special loads you'd carry in a snub,and easier reloads being mag fed.It also starts you out with one more round than the snub if you carry with one in the chamber.
You want REALLY concealable?
Get one of those.

Some people think that a revolver is easier to learn on for a beginner.I disagree.You should learn on what your going to own and use most,whether it be a revolver or a semiautomatic.Semiautomatics are no more complex than a double action revolver to learn to use.
Semiautos may be prone to a few more easy to remedy issues like stovepiping and such,but these problems are easily fixed and even more easily avoidable if you put in the time to find what ammo works best in your gun.The general manual of arms might be a little more involved with malfunction clearances that revolvers don't have,but if your revolver malfunctions to the point of being nonfunctional there are no quick remedies- its time for a gunsmith.


Besides all that,if your not going to put in time with either revolver or semiautomatic,get a pump action shotgun.Handguns in general take alot of time to learn to use well,pump shotguns are much more forgiving of a lack of training.
If you go this route,nothing but a 12 gauge will do.Get a proper stock,no silly folders or Hollyweird pistol grips,and load it with buckshot,preferably #1 buck or 00.
You will still have to learn to use the shotgun,but you wont have to spend nearly as much time before your proficient enough to truly "own" it.

Back to handguns-

There are several excellent choices in your price range and the one I'd like to recommend is this-

http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php?model=2

This is as good as small gets,and you can find them for anywhere from 400-600 bucks I believe.

The one I favor is in 9x19-

http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php?version=59

So thats 13+1 rounds in something small and with better power than .38 Special.

As for ballistics and caliber selection-

forgetaboutit.

Any caliber from .22 to .50 will kill a man dead.
Just put your gun on target and pull the trigger till the problem is solved.

Shoot 'em to the ground.

I'm not an advocate of the voodoo gun magazine science and hype of 'stopping power'.I know of one story where a cop pulled over a guy,got into it with him, shot him several times center mass with .357 magnum loads -the "best man stoppers ever(TM)",and was subsequently killed when the guy got in a round of .22 short from a single action derringer under his armpit where his vest didnt protect him- which punctured something vital in his chest (heart itself or a major artery,I forget).
http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-trooper-mark-hunter-coates

The guy who was shot with the super man stopping uber rounds?

Fully recovered and doing life in prison.

The only thing you ABSOLUTELY NEED AND MUST HAVE in any weapon is the power and cartridge design to ensure PENETRATION.Some hollowpoints in some calibers are absolutely notorious for failing to provide adequate penetration,and some cartridges in more powerful calibers will surprise you as well.
This is because mushrooming -what a hollowpoint does- acts like a parachute and slows the projectile drastically,thus severely limiting what you need -PENETRATION.
I'm not saying hollowpoints are worthless, only that you need to make a CAREFUL selection- and on the contrary hollowpoints provide several advantages over round nosed ball (full metal jacket).

You want the right bullet design for the caliber,and it takes some research to come to that decision.

This is how you reach vital organs,which by their nature when damaged or destroyed "stop" a person by making it physiologically IMPOSSIBLE for them to continue; either by hypovolemic shock or out right damage to the CNS,you want to STOP them-not rely on them to decide to quit or some magic effect being shot is supposed to have because your using the biggest meanest man stopper around.

As was the case with Trooper Mark Coates,the .22 that nicked his aorta was worth more than the 5 rounds of .357 magnum that missed his enemies vitals -and failed to "stop" him otherwise.

The guy your shooting doesn't know what your shooting at him with,and he probably doesn't care,so he wont know hes supposed to bow down to the uber man stopper,but he will fall if hes hit in the right place(s) with even the lowly .25 ACP.

Shot placement,in a fight- is not a guarantee,no matter how good you are at the range or even in a high speed tact-i-cool drill at the local wanna-be gunfighter academy.
Mark Coates,a former Marine,hit his man 5 times with some very powerful stuff in the most-advocated target 'center of mass',but got very bad results.

NOTHING is a guarantee in a fight for your life.

This is why you want high capacity.Revolvers,likes Coates' .357- have only 6 rounds.Contrast that with that Springfeild XD up in the post.

Put lead on target till the target becomes a non-issue.

Nuff said.

 

[AFPVet]

If you want penetration, use heavy bullets. I would suggest a .45 or a 10mm auto with 180 grain full powered loads for the 10mil and 230 grain loads for the .45. My personal preference is the Glock 20 with full powered 10mm 180gr double tap loads—the speed of the .357 with heavy bullets! If it's good enough for Ted Nugent to carry, it's good enough for me

 

[Kalashnikov Josh]

You can also get really good penetration with 7.62x25 tokarev.with a light little 85grain bullet.

Buffalo Bore loads a +P+ 9x19 147 grain JHP that does, if i remember correctly,1190 fps from a 4 inch barrel.

I like 10mm too....

Actually,I like just about all guns and calibers!

 

[brushfire]

Ruger SP101 w/ 3" barrel...

^ If I was to only have 1 revolver, that'd be it.

It shoots well, is durable, it can handle any load, is heavy enough to tame recoil, has nice factory grips, and is small enough to conceal.

The 3 inch variety gives a little more sight radius. The trigger is rough, but there is iowan's book of knowledge (ibok) that will help you smooth everything out.

IMO its the best revolver on the market and budsgunshop has them for $464 otd. Just add your ffl for total cost.

good luck

 

[GunnyFreedom]

This is what I use for primary point defense:

Smith & Wesson Tactical .40, as resold by the Atlanta Police Department, and equipped from the factory with tritium dot night sites.

I preferred the M&P .40 (would have even more preferred a 10mm but unusual calibres are bad if TSHTF one day)

 

[Kalashnikov Josh]

unusual calibres are bad if TSHTF one day

Another reason to like 9x19(or at least have a gun chambered for it)- its available worldwide.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Another reason to like 9x19(or at least have a gun chambered for it)- its available worldwide.

Since law enforcement went gaga for the .40 it's prolific enough in the US not to worry about it's availability in the PAW. Add to that reloading equipment and I'm golden. I like that it has significantly more punch than the 9mm. Mind you punch without shot placement is useless. Tho I think I got shot placement covered.

 

[Kalashnikov Josh]

Since law enforcement went gaga for the .40 it's prolific enough in the US not to worry about it's availability in the PAW. Add to that reloading equipment and I'm golden. I like that it has significantly more punch than the 9mm. Mind you punch without shot placement is useless. Tho I think I got shot placement covered.

Sounds like you got it all figgured out lol.

I'm not trying to be too contentious here but-

Am I correct in assuming -and without touching off the common debate about it- that you will mostly find 9x19 in US military ammo supplies,due to the adoption of the M9 pistol back in 1985 as the standard military sidearm,and the M11 in 1989?(I wonder if you could still even find some .45ACP there too?And I know they're starting to use .40 as well...)

Would it be safe to also assume that in a SHTF scenario where military,national guard,etc,what have you- participating in martial law "securing the homeland" or whatever,a good majority of them would be armed with 9mm pistols?

Also,as it is the NATO standard,as well as being adopted by several of the former WARSAW pact nations,would it be safe to assume that if you were in another country,9mm Para would be available in the same fashion?

Of course,I'm not trying to suggest that 9mm is "superior" to any other cartridge,only that it would be more available worldwide.This may or may not be important to some folks.AND - I could be wrong about some of these things.

I like 9x19 and favor it above other pistol cartridges,but that does not make it "the best" anything.

Personally I believe that 9x19 Parabellum has achieved worldwide prominence because "The 9x19mm cartridge comes close to perfectly balancing cost per round, weapon magazine capacity, controllable recoil and terminal effectiveness, as any handgun cartridge yet invented."( http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1794.htm ).

I'm not a 'fanboy' of the 9mm and enjoy handguns in many different calibers,however-based on its strengths and qualities,if I could only own one handgun,it would be in 9x19 para and it would definitely be a high capacity design(capacity being one of the strengths of 9x19).

But then,this is all just my dumba$$ opinion,and we all know whats thats worth......

I do highly recommend that anyone choosing to become a new gun owner consider a good quality semiautomatic 9mm pistol as their first gun.They're reliable,effective,and for a new shooter,would probably be less intimidating than what some of the more seasoned guys like to use recoil wise.If its to be your only gun,you wont have any problem finding ammo if TSHTF.

That S&W Military and Police model Gunny likes comes with a 17 round mag capacity in 9mm!(and it aint a Glock- whats NOT to love about THAT!)

But it all boils down to personal preference,in the end.

If bwlibertyman is dead set on what he wants,my opinion and the expression of it (albeit LONG WINDED,sorry) can be totally ignored and I'm fine with that.

Once read a post that a ER doctor or someone said that "Shot-placement is king. Adequate penetration is queen. Everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins".

I like that saying.But with one caveat-

Sidearm choices are as personal as a mans taste in women (or a womans taste in men).

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Have to run to session, will try and say more later. Yes, 9mm is more ubiquitous than .40, but the military lean more towards 9mm and the police lean more towards .40 cal. My concern in a SHTF situation is that military stores will be neigh on impossibly to acquire. Not only do you have the NAP to consider (and the NAP would probably have citizens fighting the pol more than the mil), but Mil tends to police their wounded and their magazines etc. The police are a bit less disciplined on that front. All in all both are good choices, but I've settled on the .40 as a compromise from my preferred 10mm which is not widely available.

 

[osan]

Another reason to like 9x19(or at least have a gun chambered for it)- its available worldwide.

It is anemic. A well loaded 40 Smith can be pushed to just under 1600 fps safely, something you cannot get from 9 Para. The difference between this and 1100 fps in a 9 is very large. In self defense situation you want to deliver as much energy into the target as possible because you may not get a second shot.

 

[AFPVet]

It is anemic. A well loaded 40 Smith can be pushed to just under 1600 fps safely, something you cannot get from 9 Para. The difference between this and 1100 fps in a 9 is very large. In self defense situation you want to deliver as much energy into the target as possible because you may not get a second shot.

To see what all of the calibers can do when pushed to their safe max, look up Double Tap ammo Mike makes even the little 9mm into something which would work. I've stock piled up on Mike's 10mm... so I'm good to go

 

[osan]

To see what all of the calibers can do when pushed to their safe max, look up Double Tap ammo Mike makes even the little 9mm into something which would work. I've stock piled up on Mike's 10mm... so I'm good to go

Not sayign you cannot make a 9 work, but a 40 will always be superior, all else equal. It hits a lot harder... not that I would want to be on the wrong end of any gun.

 

[AFPVet]

Not saying you cannot make a 9 work, but a 40 will always be superior, all else equal. It hits a lot harder... not that I would want to be on the wrong end of any gun.

True enough! Personally, I'm a .45 and 10mm guy... but the best firearm is the one in your hand when you need it

 

[osan]

True enough! Personally, I'm a .45 and 10mm guy... but the best firearm is the one in your hand when you need it

Agreed.

For my money, .45 is king along with 38 Super, and 357. All good stuff.

 

[Kalashnikov Josh]

It is anemic. A well loaded 40 Smith can be pushed to just under 1600 fps safely, something you cannot get from 9 Para. The difference between this and 1100 fps in a 9 is very large. In self defense situation you want to deliver as much energy into the target as possible because you may not get a second shot.

9x19 Parabellum is not "anemic".Were not talking about 8×22mm Nambu here.

9x19 is plenty powerful enough to push a chunk of lead deep enough to reach vitals,with the added benefit that its also got enough energy to do that while expanding a hollow point that will increase its efficiency in damaging those vitals.
With some TRULY "anemic" handgun rounds,like the above mentioned Nambu,you'd be lucky to get adequate penetration even in FMJ.

(ALL of the above rounds get 12 inches of penetration,the FBI standard.)

Speaking of handgun rounds,the whole 'energy deposit' thing only becomes important when you start pushing 2200-2300fps and above,which is rifle ballistics; which is where the temporary cavity caused by a bullet actually stretches fast enough to damage tissue- with your common handgun calibers like 9mm,.40,10mm,and .45acp,this is a non-issue.
Compared to rifles,ALL handguns are "anemic".
What your bullet actually hits and damages is what does the job with most handgun rounds(unless your shooting a REALLY big monster of a handgun).

(10mm Winchester Silvertip round next to a .416 Rigby)

Then we get to the weight issue.I've heard the arguments about being hit with a needle vs. a bowling ball and so forth.Not so much.......
Something you measure in GRAINS being used against something you measure in HUNDREDS OF POUNDS is yet another non issue.
The only real advantage a bigger handgun bullet has,is in diameter.Either JHP or FMJ, this is measurable in fractions of an inch.Its really not a big difference.
Just ask your significant other.

For me,the 9mm,being more than capable of doing the same job of reaching and imparting damage to the vitals of a human adversary as any of the other popular handgun calibers, has the advantage in faster follow up shots due to lower recoil impulse and higher capacity for a given magazine size.

I'd rather be able to fire MORE bullets FASTER and increase my chances of getting MORE hits,FASTER,than rely on a few fractions of an inch and a magical "one shot stop" based on "hydrostatic shock" or the energy deposit of a handgun cartridge.

but thats just me.

Your certainly free to come to your own conclusions.

 

[osan]

9x19 Parabellum is not "anemic".Were not talking about 8×22mm Nambu here.

Actually, it is when compared with other rounds and where real world results are considered.

For example, one of my father's shooting buddies had a liquor store in Brooklyn. One evening a large-ish guy on drugs came in to rob him. Poor dumb bastard announced the robbery from the door, whereas the register was all the way at the back of the store. Owner pulls a HiPower, gives warning, then fires at the oncoming stranger. He dumped 33 rounds into the center of mass before the guy dropped. A 38 Super, 357, 10mm, .45 ACP, or similar probably would have dropped him with two or three hits. His large mass prevented enough penetration to hit vitals apparently until enough of a channel was opened (he was a very good marksman) to allow a round "in", so to speak.

Now, you may say that this was an extraordinary situation and you would be correct. However, you never know when your situation will draw the short straw. In such situations you do not want to be caught short the way he was. He told me he started shitting his pants when he had to reload because he had only one spare mag. He traded way up after that incident. Smart move.

9x19 is plenty powerful enough to push a chunk of lead deep enough to reach vitals,with the added benefit that its also got enough energy to do that while expanding a hollow point that will increase its efficiency in damaging those vitals.

As reality shows, this is not always the case. Why go 9Para when you can do a double-stack 38 Super on a 1911 frame? It has far and away greater power - just about that of 357 when loaded properly. If capacity is your thing, 38 SuperAuto is the perfect round.

Crazy shit happens far more often than you might think. My friend Mike is a very accomplished IPSC/IDPA marksman. In college he managed a coroners lab in FL and saw a LOT of gunshot cadavers. Each had a story and some of them were truly nutty in terms of guys getting shot again and again, yet kept coming despite placements that should have killed them outright. Where situations call for the discharge of a weapon in the direction of another human being, along with placement, power is absolutely king. You cannot have too much of it, but you certainly can have less than you need. Playing the odds with these sorts of situation is putting your life in the hands of fate. I don't trust fate quite that much.

Compared to rifles,ALL handguns are "anemic".

Carrying a rifle everywhere you go would become a real drag. Wielding a rifle in tight quarters can be dicey enough to get you killed. Wielding a rifle small enough to be maneuverable likely means a barrel so short that most of the power virtues of a rifle cartridge are left on the cutting room floor.

I have lugged light rifles all day long (ar15) and it sucks. I've lugged shotguns all over my mountain. Sucks. I carry a pistol everywhere I go and even that gets noticeable at times. Carrying a firearm under normally peaceful conditions

What your bullet actually hits and damages is what does the job with most handgun rounds(unless your shooting a REALLY big monster of a handgun).

The only real advantage a bigger handgun bullet has,is in diameter.Either JHP or FMJ, this is measurable in fractions of an inch.Its really not a big difference.

For a given bore size, heavier == greater penetration, all else equal. Greater mass means greater sectional density.

For me,the 9mm,being more than capable of doing the same job of reaching and imparting damage to the vitals of a human adversary as any of the other popular handgun calibers, has the advantage in faster follow up shots due to lower recoil impulse and higher capacity for a given magazine size.

Human results vary wildly. What drops Joe, fails with Steve. That aside, humans are not the only things against which one may be called upon to defend himself. Are you familiar with, for example, wild boar? A 9mm Para won't even slow one down. About all you could hope for would be a righteous head shot with 357 or 44 magnum. Even then you are likely to end up dead, but the general point holds. Dogs are a good example. Rabid animals are another. They will do things you would not believe possible. Have you ever seen a rabbit stand up and walk like a man? Rabies.

I'd rather be able to fire MORE bullets FASTER and increase my chances of getting MORE hits,FASTER,than rely on a few fractions of an inch and a magical "one shot stop" based on "hydrostatic shock" or the energy deposit of a handgun cartridge.

If this is your preference, that is OK, but there is no substitute for shot placement, which requires good skills and a cool head. Practice makes perfect.

In the real world, the chances of you ever needing to draw your weapon are fairly low, though I have had to do it twice. The chances that you will need to discharge your weapon are even slimmer. That you would need more than six rounds... nearly zero... but shit does happen, so if you feel more secure with lots of bullets on hand, knock yourself out.

It's all good.

 

[Kalashnikov Josh]

Actually, it is when compared with other rounds and where real world results are considered.

I still beg to differ.9mm Parabellum will do the same thing that all the other calibers you mention do.12+ inches of penetration AND mushrooming is MORE than enough to do the job,given the bullet actually hits something vital.If a single round does not,then dump on the guy.
Shoot 'em to the ground.

One person might get shot AT and quit,because he is afraid.Another person might be super hyped up on adrenaline,drugs,fanaticism- or a mix of all of the above,and it'll take alot of fighting -irregardless of the particular calibers involved- to put them down,absent a solid CNS hit.

You should be prepared to make a serious fight any time you have to draw your piece,and not think "this'll be easy,I've got the super whammo big boy gun death ray zapper".........

I believe I'm adequately prepared for that with a high capacity 9mm.

He dumped 33 rounds into the center of mass before the guy dropped. A 38 Super, 357, 10mm, .45 ACP, or similar probably would have dropped him with two or three hits. His large mass prevented enough penetration to hit vitals apparently until enough of a channel was opened (he was a very good marksman) to allow a round "in", so to speak.

Its the same kind of "extraordinary situation" that I pointed out when I began posting in this thread,where Trooper Mark Hunter Coates,a former Marine,chose his handgun and cartridge based on all the "stopping power" hype- he chose a .357 magnum and I believe some very hot and heavy JHP's......5 shots into the center mass of his killer did nothing to stop the man from delivering the mortal wound to Coates with a .22 Short from one of those little mini revolvers.......Coates' killer was also quite large.

I believe that ALL shooting incidents are "extraordinary situations" and that you could draw the short straw DESPITE having even a 12 gauge loaded with buckshot vs. the other guy's Raven .25ACP.

Now, you may say that this was an extraordinary situation and you would be correct. However, you never know when your situation will draw the short straw. In such situations you do not want to be caught short the way he was. He told me he started shitting his pants when he had to reload because he had only one spare mag. He traded way up after that incident. Smart move.

As I said- $h!t happens.All we can do is prepare and hope for the best.
I wonder what Mark Coates would "trade" his 6 shot revolver for if he were still alive?
Perhaps a high capacity semiauto,so that when his first 5 shots failed to do anything he'd still have 10+ shots to work with?

As reality shows, this is not always the case. Why go 9Para when you can do a double-stack 38 Super on a 1911 frame? It has far and away greater power - just about that of 357 when loaded properly. If capacity is your thing, 38 SuperAuto is the perfect round.

Power in handguns being a relative term,as I've already demonstrated,AND you can still fit more 9x19 in a given mag than something bigger.AND you can touch off repeat shots faster,as the recoil impulse is lower.

Thats why 9x19 Para.

Crazy shit happens far more often than you might think. My friend Mike is a very accomplished IPSC/IDPA marksman. In college he managed a coroners lab in FL and saw a LOT of gunshot cadavers. Each had a story and some of them were truly nutty in terms of guys getting shot again and again, yet kept coming despite placements that should have killed them outright. Where situations call for the discharge of a weapon in the direction of another human being, along with placement, power is absolutely king. You cannot have too much of it, but you certainly can have less than you need. Playing the odds with these sorts of situation is putting your life in the hands of fate. I don't trust fate quite that much.

"Shot-placement is king. Adequate penetration is queen. Everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins."
This was also said by a medical professional.Some guy called Erich,google it its all over the web.

Its almost like masturbation without the payoff when you compare the energy and size of handgun rounds.They all do pretty much the same thing.Selecting one that will penetrate and mushroom adequately is enough.
The 9mm bullet that punctures the abdominal aorta will stop a man where as the .44 magnum round that passes thru the bowel and leaves without doing any actual damage to the cardio/vascular system to cause hypovolemic shock or hitting the CNS is not a guarantee.

Carrying a rifle everywhere you go would become a real drag. Wielding a rifle in tight quarters can be dicey enough to get you killed. Wielding a rifle small enough to be maneuverable likely means a barrel so short that most of the power virtues of a rifle cartridge are left on the cutting room floor.

Right.But thats all besides the point,which was-

Rifle ballistics are where we get to talk about how the energy of a projectile has as much impact as what that projectile actually hits.The energy of rifle bullets stretches the temporary cavity of a GSW violently enough to do real damage.

Handgun ballistics are not in the same arena.
They simply do not have the energy to impart any actual damage beyond what they actually physically hit.


Of course,this isnt an absolute(nothing is).Some organs,like the liver,it doesn't take much to make them stretch and rupture.but again- a rifle round will most definitely do this alot better,and there really wouldn't be much difference in such damage between handgun calibers.

Its simply not worth relying on this mechanism with any handgun in any popular defensive caliber.

For a given bore size, heavier == greater penetration, all else equal. Greater mass means greater sectional density.

Tell that to the 7.62x25 Tokarev.I guarantee you that caliber will hold its own against and even out penetrate 9mm,.40,38 super,.45,.357 magnum,etc.
And thats with a tiny 85 grain bullet,who's LACK OF sectional density,.30 caliber diameter,and extremely high velocity make it the absolute penetration king of combat handgun calibers.

Too bad they don't make pistols chambered in that round with hicap mags.....

Human results vary wildly. What drops Joe, fails with Steve. That aside, humans are not the only things against which one may be called upon to defend himself. Are you familiar with, for example, wild boar? A 9mm Para won't even slow one down. About all you could hope for would be a righteous head shot with 357 or 44 magnum. Even then you are likely to end up dead, but the general point holds. Dogs are a good example. Rabid animals are another. They will do things you would not believe possible. Have you ever seen a rabbit stand up and walk like a man? Rabies.

I'll fully agree with you on the human results issue,the fact is,gunfights are unpredictable.
So where you believe you stack your odds with a bigger,more "powerful" handgun,I believe I stack my odds with less recoil impulse resulting in faster time on target and higher capacity.
both ideologies have worked and both have failed- not because of the handgun or the caliber,but because of either the individual using the weapon or that bastid Mr.Murphy,or a mixture of both.

It happens.

As to animals,I was looking at this in the pure perspective of human self defense and combat issues.But I'm sure that if you put a good load of 9x19 that is proven to penetrate more than 12" of human flesh into the skull of an angry boar,it'll stop it.
As long as it penetrates the skull and does damage to the brain.
Rather have my shotgun or AK,but I'd say that about ANY shooting situation.

If this is your preference, that is OK, but there is no substitute for shot placement, which requires good skills and a cool head. Practice makes perfect.

Absolutely.we can agree on that.
But even then I doubt sincerely that while bullets are flying past us,were going to have a 'cool head'.Thats why placement gets iffy,and thats why I say "shoot 'em to the ground" with the bonus of a high capacity weapon giving you enough lead to make swiss cheese out of 'em.
If I'm lucky,I won't end up like your friend in the store.
Crapping his pants and trying a reload under stress.

Your argument for the problem would be- "make bigger holes with every shot" or something along the lines of "hit 'em harder with every shot",right?
And hope you don't end up like Coates,who probably left this world shocked that his super uber powerful magnum did nothing to stop the guy who liked him with a .22 short.

In the real world, the chances of you ever needing to draw your weapon are fairly low, though I have had to do it twice. The chances that you will need to discharge your weapon are even slimmer. That you would need more than six rounds... nearly zero... but shit does happen, so if you feel more secure with lots of bullets on hand, knock yourself out.

Yep.I feel better with more bullets on hand,but it doesn't stop me from carrying a standard capacity auto at times.

People stop when just being shown a weapon.Others fight and kill their adversary after taking grievous injury themselves.

BOTH ideas- making bigger holes,or having higher capacity,are valid in their own right and kept in perspective-and that perspective is one of personal choice.

I merely suggested to the OP in this thread that he would be better off,IMHO,with a high capacity subcompact 9mm pistol rather than a revolver,because I believe the 9mm would suit the purposes of a new shooter better being that it has limited recoil and the general ease of reloading a semiautomatic over a revolver,would do more and be better for him than a revolver.
I wasn't angling for the age old caliber war.

But as it is,its still entirely up to him.

If a revolver makes him happy,then I'm happy for him.

It's all good.

 

[AFPVet]

For some interesting education, look up the old live animal tests done back in the day.... This being said, pick the weapon you can most comfortably shoot. As for me, it's either the .45 or the 10mm. Animal tests are accurate due to the fact that the animal has the will to survive—much like a doped up meth head. If the bullet does a good job dropping an animal, it will do a good job with a human. I would suppose that wild boar would be the best since it would simulate human flesh the best. What does Ted Nugent use to dispatch wild boar? The 10mm. Conversely, I still think that a heavy .45 would do just as well though at close range.

 

[Kalashnikov Josh]

Anyone here seen this yet:

SPRINGFIELD ARMORY
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT DIVISION
MEMORANDUM REPORT SA-MR 20-2100

L O Spaulding/lv

24 August 1948

SUBJECT:
Effective Penetration Range of 9mm Parabellum Ammunition.

OBJECT:
To determine the greatest range at which the subject ammunition will penetrate the M1 helmet.

SUMMARY:
M1 helmets were fired at using different 9mm ammunition to determine the greatest penetration range. A Canadian 9mm Parabellum ammunition having a velocity of 1250 f/s penetrated the M1 helmet at 130 yards, which was further than any of the other ammunition tested.

REFERENCE:
Project TS2-7875-2024 J O 7875-6160

MATERIAL:

1. Weapons
a. Browning FN 9mm Pistol, HP Inglis-Canada, Serial Number 8T2367
b. Colt Automatic Pistol, Cal .45, 1911A1, Serial Number 1651407

2. Ammunition
a. Special 9mm Parabellum cases and Cal .38 S&W Special Bullets (Metal clad, 158 grains) and loaded to a velocity of 850 f/s.
b. Winchester 9mm Parabellum, 116 grain bullet, Lot WRA22026, 1,150 f/s instrumental velocity at 53 feet.
c. Cartridges, Ball, 9mm M1, 116 grain bullet (Parabellum) (Code T2CAB) Lot DIL- 617 (Canadian) 1,250 f/s instrumental velocity at 53 feet.
d. Pistol Ball Cal .45 M1911, Lot E C S25250.

3. M1 Helmets

4. Outdoor range facilities

PROCEDURE:
An M1 helmet was placed on top of a stake, back of which a target was set up to facilitate aiming and to lend support to the helmet. The 9mm Canadian pistol was then fired from a muzzle and elbow rest at the helmet. In the event the helmet was pierced, it was moved away from the shooter 10 yards and the procedure repeated until failure to pierce the helmet resulted. This procedure was followed with the special 9mm ammunition and with the high and low velocity 9mm ammunition. A similar test was run using a Colt Cal .45.

RESULTS:
1. The special 9mm Parabellum case with a Cal 38 S&W bullet penetrated the M1 helmet at 50 yards, but not 60 yards.
2. The Winchester 9mm Parabellum (1,150 f/s velocity) penetrated the M1 helmet at 120 yards, but not at 130 yards.
3. The Canadian 9mm Parabellum (1,250 f/s velocity) penetrated the M1 helmet at 130 yards, but due to lack of longer range facilities was not fired beyond this point.
4. The Cal .45 ammunition penetrated the helmet at 30 yards, but not at 35 yards.

CONCLUSION:
It is concluded that the Canadian 9mm Parabellum ammunition with the 1250 f/s velocity, had a longer range penetration power than any of the other ammunition tested.

Prepared By: L O Spaulding, Ordnance Engineer
H F Hawthorne, Ordnance Engineer
E W Hopkins, Head Ordnance Engineer

I have some 124gr ball known to go 1300-1350 from a pistol........tell you what,if I'm "stuck with" a pistol as my only gun,and it comes down to a combat situation....I'm glad my pistol would be chambered for 9mm Para........

 

[AFPVet]

Anyone here seen this yet:



I have some 124gr ball known to go 1300-1350 from a pistol........

Yep... this was the tests used to select the 9mm for the military. However, the effective range for the .45 in a real world event is around 21 feet (combat distance.) Beyond that, you need a 10mm. While the .45 will still work past 21 feet, it starts to lose a lot of gas and the trajectory arc's.