H1B Visas... We should stop them immediately!

[Enforcer]

wtf are you talking about. I told you how Dr. Paul's position has CHANGED since you met him in '86. take it up with him if you want to get all nuts about it, he made the claim himself when asked about IT in a debate.

In my previous post, we have Ron Paul's official position. Now, either you have the so - called "Patriot Act," REAL ID Act, etc. or you don't. You cannot have it both ways.

If you use the military to enforce what you claim are domestic laws, then you have violated the Constitution (as originally written and intended.)

The bottom line is, if you want people to come here "legally," you've got to reform the laws to create an impartial and proper method. That is a current Ron Paul position. The rest of the stuff is pure political propaganda and even Ron Paul ought to be ashamed of the double talking he's doing.

 

[Enforcer]

I'm for that too, but in their own nations. They sure wouldn't like it if the situation was reversed and we were going to their nation and taking jobs away from their qualified workers while hating their nation and looking down on them at the same time.

You're not for Liberty. Liberty is defined as:

"The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life."

If the only place one can attain Liberty is to go to another country, what you are advocating is totalitarianism.

 

[RickyJ]

You're not for Liberty. Liberty is defined as:

"The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life."

If the only place one can attain Liberty is to go to another country, what you are advocating is totalitarianism.

Whatever! Like I said before, I don't agree with Ron Paul on everything, and I am not, and have never been a Libertarian, but I do support Ron Paul 100%. Nations exist, and like it or not, they aren't going away any time soon.

 

[Enforcer]

H1-B visa people end up more like indentured servants than liberated. And the american people who's jobs they filled end up paying the taxes/debt as those same corps suck off the govt wiener.

The only way to respond to this post is to tell you, it don't make sense.

Let's start here: "And the american people who's jobs they filled end up paying the taxes/debt" (your words)

Let me try and put this into English: And the American people whose jobs they filled end up paying the taxes/debt...

RESPONSE: Okay, you are making a National Socialist argument. The American people did not own the job. If the Americans lost their job, they could NOT have ended up paying taxes for the foreigner. Quite the converse is true. For example, undocumented workers pay about $9 BILLION DOLLARS per year into Socialist Security and they cannot draw one thin dime out at retirement.

The rest of your sentence seems to imply that foreigners come here, steal a job, spend all day in the welfare line, probably in the hospital waiting room getting (free) medical care at night and still find time to work this job you accused them of stealing.

If I'm misrepresenting your position, it might be time for you to go back to school and learn English... Oh wait, let me type that in your language: go bak to skool and lern to reed an rite.

 

[Enforcer]

Whatever! Like I said before, I don't agree with Ron Paul on everything, and I am not, and have never been a Libertarian, but I do support Ron Paul 100%. Nations exist, and like it or not, they aren't going away any time soon.

Ron Paul did not author the concept of Liberty; he only wrote a book about it. Ron Paul says he's against amnesty. I'm FOR amnesty. There are bills in Congress that would give veterans amnesty to legally own weapons they brought back from foreign conflicts. I'm FOR amnesty. I'm FOR giving amnesty to get people to bring money back into the U.S., tax free and investing it so as to stimulate the economy.

Finally, you did not bother to read my posts regarding the "house" analogy. I'm far more against the idea of a ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT than the nutcases that want to force every person that passes through the U.S. to become a citizen.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

If you repeal the so - called "Patriot Act" which is subtitled ENHANCED BORDER SECURITY, the REAL ID Act, warrant less searches, etc. then you are right back to the position I have taken.

"Open Borders" is a totally meaningless political term, invented by National Socialists. What the xenophobes want conflicts with the very things the founding fathers warned us against.

No one here wants the "Patriot Act" which is subtitled ENHANCED BORDER SECURITY, the REAL ID Act, warrant less searches". Are you inferring that we do? Are there National Socialists or Xenophobes here?

If eliminating the "Patriot Act" which is subtitled ENHANCED BORDER SECURITY, the REAL ID Act, warrant less searches" brings us to your position, then we must be pretty close.

In my previous post, we have Ron Paul's official position. Now, either you have the so - called "Patriot Act," REAL ID Act, etc. or you don't. You cannot have it both ways.

Once again, who is arguing for the "Patriot Act," REAL ID Act, etc."?

If you use the military to enforce what you claim are domestic laws, then you have violated the Constitution (as originally written and intended.)

Agree, who was arguing for that?

You're not for Liberty. Liberty is defined as:

"The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life."

If the only place one can attain Liberty is to go to another country, what you are advocating is totalitarianism.

Where are these people who are not for Liberty, and are advocating totalitarianism?

Ron Paul says he's against amnesty. I'm FOR amnesty.

Yes, we know you don't agree with Ron Paul.

I'm far more against the idea of a ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT than the nutcases that want to force every person that passes through the U.S. to become a citizen.

"Passes through"? Who is advocating that again?

Perhaps you can remind us all again of the definition of "straw man".

 

[Brian4Liberty]

In my previous post, we have Ron Paul's official position...

The rest of the stuff is pure political propaganda and even Ron Paul ought to be ashamed of the double talking he's doing.

So Ron Paul needs to be ashamed of his current position, as stated on his 2012 Campaign website?

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/

A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY

A nation without borders is no nation at all.

It just doesn’t make sense to fight terrorists abroad while leaving our front door unlocked.

Unfortunately, for far too long, neither major political party has had the courage to do what is necessary to tackle the problem.

Instead, we’re presented with so-called “solutions” that involve amnesty proposals or further restricting Americans’ civil liberties through programs like REAL ID.

Ron Paul opposes both of these schemes and believes they will only make illegal immigration and the problems associated with it worse. He has been proud to see states exercising their Tenth Amendment rights and protecting their citizens by refusing to comply with the unconstitutional REAL ID law.

While the federal government neglects its constitutional responsibility to protect our borders, it continues to push mandates on the states to provide free education and medical care to illegal immigrants at a time when the states are drowning in debt. This must not be tolerated any longer.

Like most Americans, Ron Paul also understands just how valuable legal immigration is to our country.

Immigrants who want to work hard, obey our laws, and live the American Dream have always been great assets.
COMMON SENSE REFORMS

If elected President, Ron Paul will work to implement the following common sense reforms:

* Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

* No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

* Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

* End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.

* Protect Lawful Immigrants – As President, Ron Paul will encourage legal immigration by streamlining the entry process without rewarding lawbreakers.

As long as our borders remain wide open, the security and safety of the American people are at stake.

As President, Ron Paul will address immigration by fighting for effective solutions that protect our nation, uphold the rule of law, and respect every American citizen’s civil liberties.

 

[Enforcer]

Brian4Liberty,

Are you a glutton for punishment? First you make this allegation that people are making straw men arguments and you get spanked. Then you try to be dishonest on us and pretend to be a lawyer by quoting me out of context. NOW, you're back to phony straw man allegations???

Okay, we can play, but we've done this in how many threads?

According to my Black's Law Dictionary, the word immigration means:

"The coming into a country of foreigners for purposes of permanent residence."

Now, let us go back to the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

When Thomas Jefferson penned those words of the Declaration of Independence, he literally meant ALL MEN. Jefferson, like George Washington, was opposed to slavery. Their understanding of unalienable Rights were that people are BORN with those Rights. They are not bestowed upon by government. Those Rights sure as hell have NOTHING to do with citizenship as there was no United States when the Declaration of Independence was written.

So, we know two things right off the bat:

The Declaration of Independence is LAW:

http://www.freeforum101.com/outcastsandoutl/viewtopic.php?t=234&mforum=outcastsandoutl

AND Our founding fathers did not tie unalienable Rights to citizenship:

“You have Rights antecedent to all earthly governments; Rights that
cannot he repealed or restrained by human laws; Rights derived from the Great Legislator of the universe.” (John Adams, second President of the United States)

http://www.zeios.com/ourrepublic/Authors.aspx?AuthorId=56

This thread started out as a discussion about H1B visas, Brian4Liberty. A visa generally precedes the immigration process. But, the issue before us is not about people coming here to become citizens; it is now a debate over Liberty. You seem to have a bad taste in your mouth over that word Liberty, but we were all born with it.

Our laws do not contemplate workers coming here, especially on short notice, and taking jobs willingly offered by American employers. You like making these socialist arguments that foreigners are "stealing" American jobs, but let's face it, you cannot deal with simple FACTS. The foreigner could not steal "your" job because: A) the foreigner was born with the Right to Liberty and B) UNLESS you live in a socialist country, the employer owned the job in the first place.

In most cases, the foreigner does not want to become a citizen. Current federal laws do not contemplate Guest Workers, but Guest Workers are a matter of fact. We do not have an alternative term to describe Guest Workers and the immigration laws do not apply because they are not here with the intention of seeking permanent residence.

You are dealing with immigration laws that are 50 years old and no longer apply to the changing times, needs and most importantly, the realities of our times. Surely this cannot be that hard for even you to understand.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Okay, we can play, but we've done this in how many threads?

Yeah, what other usernames were you using?

This is pointless. Bye.

 

[Enforcer]

So Ron Paul needs to be ashamed of his current position, as stated on his 2012 Campaign website?

RON PAUL SHOULD FEEL ASHAMED THAT HE ALLOWS POLITICAL PROPAGANDA PROSTITUTES TO WRITE HIS CAMPAIGN PLATFORM

Let's critique it:

A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY

A nation without borders is no nation at all.

We've answered this many times in the course of this thread. I will not beat a dead horse. We have borders.

It just doesn’t make sense to fight terrorists abroad while leaving our front door unlocked.

So, either you are for the so - called "Patriot Act" or you ain't The so - called "Patriot Act" gives you exactly what is being demanded in that sentence

Unfortunately, for far too long, neither major political party has had the courage to do what is necessary to tackle the problem.

Instead, we’re presented with so-called “solutions” that involve amnesty proposals or further restricting Americans’ civil liberties through programs like REAL ID.

Ron Paul opposes both of these schemes and believes they will only make illegal immigration and the problems associated with it worse. He has been proud to see states exercising their Tenth Amendment rights and protecting their citizens by refusing to comply with the unconstitutional REAL ID law.

While the federal government neglects its constitutional responsibility to protect our borders, it continues to push mandates on the states to provide free education and medical care to illegal immigrants at a time when the states are drowning in debt. This must not be tolerated any longer.

This, as Ron Paul ought to know is a bare faced LIE. The government does not mandate that ANYBODY get free (sic) medical care. NOBODY gets a free education. The costs of education are mostly paid for property and state sales taxes... BOTH of which undocumented workers pay.

Like most Americans, Ron Paul also understands just how valuable legal immigration is to our country.

Immigrants who want to work hard, obey our laws, and live the American Dream have always been great assets.
COMMON SENSE REFORMS

Ron Paul and I are in complete agreement here. But, this is a political trick position. Undocumented workers who come here absent any credible proper method of entry are not criminals. Furthermore, those who get a Taxpayer Identification Number, pay the taxes and abide by the other laws are the very people Ron Paul is talking about. The "code" term is COMMON SENSE REFORMS.

If elected President, Ron Paul will work to implement the following common sense reforms:

* Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

This is the so - called "Patriot Act." Read it.

* No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

First, it is not illegal to enter or be in the United States without papers. Furthermore, if you are against amnesty for foreigners, bear in mind that we cannot straighten out our economy without a tax amnesty for people to bring their assets back to the United States. Amnesty is amnesty. If one group cannot be afforded amnesty, NO group can be afforded amnesty. Otherwise it would be a clear violation of the equal protection of the laws Clause of the 14th Amendment.

* Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

First Milton Friedman used a very important conjunction. It is the word AND. We can have open borders. We can have a welfare state, but he said we cannot have both. Laws have already been passed making it a crime for undocumented foreigners to receive welfare. This is a non - issue, but in the interests of Liberty, the item that needs to be taken off the table is the welfare state.

* End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.

In 1982 we had an estimated 10 MILLION people in the United States without papers; we had another TWO MILLION coming in each year, "open borders;" and between 1982 and 2001 we had SEVEN AMNESTIES! Yet, through all of that, we lived the best years of our lives as Americans. We had the most jobs, paid the least in taxes, had the most in assets, and owned the most homes. HOW did that happen? Adding insult to injury, today the U.S. has approximately 10 MILLION people without papers in the United States. That myth of not being able to control immigration is a debunked myth.

* Protect Lawful Immigrants – As President, Ron Paul will encourage legal immigration by streamlining the entry process without rewarding lawbreakers.

This is code for Guest Workers. There are at least 8 MILLION foreigners here with no papers but, have Taxpayer Identification Numbers, paying taxes and abiding by the laws. I'd say those are the ones Ron Paul is talking about.

As long as our borders remain wide open, the security and safety of the American people are at stake.

The above is socialist propaganda. Our borders are not "wide open," but, they are heavily monitored

As President, Ron Paul will address immigration by fighting for effective solutions that protect our nation, uphold the rule of law, and respect every American citizen’s civil liberties.

If Ron Paul is going to respect EVERY American citizen's (sic) civil liberties, then an employer would be able to hire whomever in the hell they wanted to.

 

[Enforcer]

Yeah, what other usernames were you using?

This is pointless. Bye.

For you to continue making this baseless allegation, one wonders how many usernames YOU are using. I have one name and one account here. And you? You do need another board name.

And another one bites the dust.

 

[ZenBowman]

H1-B visa people end up more like indentured servants than liberated. And the american people who's jobs they filled end up paying the taxes/debt as those same corps suck off the govt wiener.

Surprising, because I don't feel indentured at all.

Making a good salary, paying taxes, not taking any welfare, contributing to the Paul campaign because I understand why I came to this country is indentured servitude? BTW I didn't take a single "American job", but I sure helped create a whole bunch of them.

You continue to buy into the silly zero-sum game idea propagated by liberals. I guess Americans should also be forced to lower their birth rate, after all, we wouldn't want a "labor excess", right? Or does the "excess" only happen when the population increase is because of foreigners?

 

[specsaregood]

Surprising, because I don't feel indentured at all.

Have you ever been an indentured servant? Do you know what it is? I've known and worked with a whole lot of H1-B visa folk, and many of them do end up like indentured servants. how long have you been on your visa here?

BTW I didn't take a single "American job", but I sure helped create a whole bunch of them.

I didn't say you took any jobs. I said you "filled" jobs. Which is true; as a supposed requirement for H1-B visas is that the company has to claim that they can't find a suitable american for the job. A claim that offshore corps go around giving lessons on how to fake and circumvent.

 

[ZenBowman]

Have you ever been an indentured servant? Do you know what it is? I've known and worked with a whole lot of H1-B visa folk, and many of them do end up like indentured servants. how long have you been on your visa here?

No longer on the visa, permanent resident. Hoping my citizenship papers go through in time to vote for Paul come November.

I didn't say you took any jobs. I said you "filled" jobs. Which is true; as a supposed requirement for H1-B visas is that the company has to claim that they can't find a suitable american for the job. A claim that offshore corps go around giving lessons on how to fake and circumvent.

I believe that is only for companies that hire more than 50% H-1Bs, doesn't apply to startups as far as I know.

Companies try to subvert burdensome regulations all the time though.

 

[Enforcer]

I didn't say you took any jobs. I said you "filled" jobs. Which is true; as a supposed requirement for H1-B visas is that the company has to claim that they can't find a suitable american for the job. A claim that offshore corps go around giving lessons on how to fake and circumvent.

Took a job, filled a job, stole the job... it's all semantics. The truth is you are hiding behind statutes that were rammed through Congress by liberals. While the government may have the POWER to dictate who the employer hires, in a constitutional Republic, they lack the AUTHORITY.

 

[ZenBowman]

Took a job, filled a job, stole the job... it's all semantics. The truth is you are hiding behind statutes that were rammed through Congress by liberals. While the government may have the POWER to dictate who the employer hires, in a constitutional Republic, they lack the AUTHORITY.

Exactly.

All this resentment of guest workers is based on the zero-sum fallacy in the first place, an idea that is the starting point towards progressivism. I did not think we'd find a progressive argument in this forum.

 

[Enforcer]

Exactly.

All this resentment of guest workers is based on the zero-sum fallacy in the first place, an idea that is the starting point towards progressivism. I did not think we'd find a progressive argument in this forum.

This entire argument never ceases to amaze me. The people on this forum ought to be the most educated people in America. As you point out, they are making a case for progressivism. To make matters worse, they are more adamant than the left. Yet they never, not once in this entire debate (regardless of which thread this has come up on), have attempted to refute the fact that the people do not own the jobs. The jobs are owned by the employer that created them; it's not the employer's place to provide any of them with a job. The progressives continue to ignore this and keep wailing about foreigners taking "their" jobs.

The anti - immigrant continues to call the foreigners "illegal aliens" despite the FACT that there is no law that makes it a crime to enter or be in the United States without papers. The anti - immigrant does not care about the precedent they set by accusing people of a crime and treating them as criminals without the benefit of DUE PROCESS. The anti - immigrant lobby takes more of a dump on the Constitution than Barack Obama ever has.

The anti - immigrants make false allegations that the foreigner does not pay taxes, but the people that collect the taxes claim the anti - immigrants are lying. So, what motivates people to LIE against their neighbors?

Let's face the FACTS. The American people do not have jobs because there are too many laws and too many regulations. America has too many bureaucracies and too many people depending upon Uncle Scam for their bread and butter. Those working for the government make 25 percent more than their civilian counterparts and have many more vacation and personal days off in which to enjoy those larger paychecks.

Meanwhile, the anti - immigrant lobby wants us to spend TRILLIONS of dollars in order to save a few BILLIONS. On what level does that make sense? They tell you that this isn't about race, but they want to put a fence around the southern border of the U.S. What about CANADA?

The anti - immigrant LIES about the foreigner and claims they do not pay taxes. I've challenged them to show me just ONE tax the undocumented foreigner does not pay that they do - EXCEPT (AND ALLEGEDLY AT THAT) the income tax. Even on the income tax, the Socialist Security Administration states that 75 percent of all undocumented workers have a Taxpayer Identification Number and pay the tax. But, what difference does it make? The 16th Amendment was illegally ratified. So tell me WHY I should even care if any of you ever pay an unconstitutional tax? The anti - immigrant lobby, now properly identified as progressives, are trying to legitimize a tax predicated on the Communist Manifesto.

All of this adds up to one thing: NATIONAL SOCIALISM. These people exit these threads; make a lot of noise, but avoid honest debates and discussions where the facts are brought to light. We just saw how they scurried away like cockroaches the moment you shine a light on them. If we're going to save America, we're going to have to get past this issue. With the exception of Obamacare, the rest of the laws passed in this country over the last decade that favor socialism were done under the pretext of fighting immigration.

 

[Dsylexic]

What's your source that Japan dumped protectionism prior to WW2? Japan was a superpower, marching up through China before they decided to attack us.

And IIRC, Japan almost singlehandedly killed our steel industry with their definition of "free trade."

China is protectionist now, and their economy is booming. Go figure.

I know you have lots of theories, but again, the history is on my side. IF we do not protect our interests, nobody else will.

The bottom line is that when executives complain that the U.S. isn't producing enough scientists and engineers, what they really mean is that the U.S. isn't producing enough scientists and engineers happy to work for $7 per hour.

I worked in an industry where there were labor shortages, and guess what? My employer started putting people through school to fill the demand. Instead, we have guidance counselors steering Americans away from tech and science careers because the salary levels are falling to third world levels.

well,yes.america is NOT producing people willing to work at hi tech jobs for 7 dollars an hour.and that is somehow a case for protectionism?you can try protectionism all you want.software jobs will flow to the cheapest + acceptable quality labor over the internet.the more you prevent H1Bs,or immigrant workers,the more such jobs will flow out.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

RON PAUL SHOULD FEEL ASHAMED THAT HE ALLOWS POLITICAL PROPAGANDA PROSTITUTES TO WRITE HIS CAMPAIGN PLATFORM

Wow, you have discovered that Ron Paul is not an anarchist. You have discovered that Ron has campaign staff and supporters who are not anarchists. Congratulations. How much more trolling do you intend to do?

 

[Enforcer]

Wow, you have discovered that Ron Paul is not an anarchist. You have discovered that Ron has campaign staff and supporters who are not anarchists. Congratulations. How much more trolling do you intend to do?

If ever there were a troll on this board, it would by you sir. You are the very example of the kind of person I alluded to in post # 177.

Since you cannot build your case on facts, you choose the proverbial ad hominem attacks because you have no case upon which to argue. The only thing that I have discovered about Ron Paul is that he does not attempt to protect his own name and reputation. He allows himself to be at the mercy of people like you to tell us what Ron Paul is.

So, let's cut through the B.S. once and for all. YOU are claiming that Ron Paul is a National Socialist. We can read into Ron Paul's campaign platform just about either position until you figure out that Paul bills himself as the defender of constitutional Liberties. I don't know what in the hell condemning Ron Paul's political campaign writers has to do with Ron Paul's beliefs about anarchy, but I know that you are certainly not stupid enough to accuse ME of being an anarchist. Now, you've set yourself as the ultimate authority as to what Ron Paul is really about.

You've gotten your rump spanked so many times on this board that it is sickening. Don't you ever come onto any board and call me a troll while slinging ad hominem attacks. EVERY time you've made an accusation against me, it has been answered. You've dodged and ducked the issues every time because you rely on majority rule... democracy... the lynch mob mentality to spread your message of ignorance and bigotry.

Sir, your lack of education really shows. An anarchist wants unnecessary laws abolished. Not only did I NOT accuse of Ron Paul of having such a position, i haven't taken such a position myself. You need to take a remedial course and learn how to read.