Group Project: Let's Rank The Presidents and Summarize Their Presidencies

[tttppp]

Calvin Coolidge was generally a good president, aside from participating in the enforcement of brutal and draconian Prohibition policies. I consider his immediate predecessor, Harding, a little better, on the grounds that Harding (though he promised on the campaign trail to enforce it), in addition to being (like Coolidge) a largely libertarian president with a peaceful foreign policy and financially-conservative domestic agenda, was lax toward Prohibition.

What years was he president?

 

[enoch150]

You misunderstand if you think the Founding Fathers revolted just because they didn't want to pay their taxes. Remember the whole "No Taxation without Representation!" thing? The problem there isn't taxation, it was the whole "no representation" thing. Americans had no voice for themselves in the British government and could not govern themselves. Finally the abuses got so great and so often, and the oppression so severe, without them having a say in their own governance (even their colonial governors were crown appointed in most cases, not locally chosen leaders) that revolution became justified. But if they had had legal recourse, and representation in Parliament it might have been a different story.

The Whiskey Rebellion was not on the same grounds. They had legal representation and recourse that could effect laws governing them. (In fact after the rebellion the whiskey tax issue is what helped form Jefferson's Democratic-Republican Party, which promised to end it)The formers of the Whiskey Rebellion did not use up every justifiable legal means or any really. They did not appeal to local, state, or federal representatives or try any political action to get the tax withdrawn. They resorted to mob violence. Revolution is a last resort when all peaceful means have been exhausted. The Whiskey Rebellion did not do this. Therefore it was an unjust revolt.

And to drop a little history on you, the tax collectors were not the first to use force on anyone. They came around to collect an unpopular tax and the people who formed the Whiskey rebellion responded not just by refusing to pay but by assaulting them and driving them away. Then a US marshal arrived to serve legal writs telling them to pay their taxes or face legal action and the rebels gathered into a group of 500 men and assaulted the marshal and the home of the local tax inspector. it wasn't until this point that the federal government got involved. Washington's first step was to send peace commissioners to help settle the issue, and only when the rebels refused to do anything but rebel violently were militia troops called in. The Whiskey Rebellion formed a mob that threatened the lives and peace of the people of the state. The state asked the federal government for help. It responded and ended the rebellion peacefully ultimately. But it was the mob that initiated force.

As to Lincoln, you're laboring under a lack of understanding. Lincoln believed that revolution was only a right when you were rebelling for a just cause against an unjust government, an idea very inline with the Founding Fathers. His argument concerning the South was that it was not doing this at all. The South was rebelling for a wicked and immoral cause, to support and extend slavery, against a government that had bent over backwards to accommodate it. And that is pretty true. Because the cause of the South was to further slavery and not promulgate liberty, its revolution was unjust. All sound logic and morality I think. The irony of course is that he was a hypocrite because as he was teaching this he was simultaneously raping the Constitution.

No taxation without representation made for a good rallying cry, but it wasn't the primary cause of the revolution. Of the thirty or so points listed in the Declaration of Independence, taxes are only mentioned once "For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent"

Taxation even with representation amounts to nothing more than mob rule. Those in revolt weren't the mob. The mob consisted of those imposing the tax. The tax collector initiated violence because he had the backing of the government: pay up or there will be 15,000 militia here to force you to pay and/or imprison you. Washington's peace commissioner's were a joke: they had no intention of not enforcing the tax, therefore, they were not there to resolve anything. Their purpose was to stall and intimidate. Those who initiated the Whiskey Rebellion should be applauded.

I've read the surrounding text in the Lincoln speech. You're just making stuff up. He makes no mention of revolution only being for just cause against unjust government. He states very clearly that any time a majority of some area wants to be independent, they may do so, and old laws are void.

...I propose to state my understanding of the true rule for ascertaining the boundary between Texas and Mexico. It is, that wherever Texas was exercising jurisdiction, was hers; and wherever Mexico was exercising jurisdiction, was hers; and that whatever separated the actual exercise of jurisdiction of the one, from that of the other, was the true boundary between them. If, as is probably true, Texas was exercising jurisdiction along the western bank of the Nueces, and Mexico was exercising it along the eastern bank of the Rio Grande, then neither river was the boundary; but the uninhabited country between the two, was. The extent of our teritory in that region depended, not on any treaty-fixed boundary (for no treaty had attempted it) but on revolution Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable,-- most sacred right--a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much of the teritory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movement. Such minority, was precisely the case, of the tories of our own revolution. It is a quality of revolutions not to go by old lines, or old laws; but to break up both, and make new ones. As to the country now in question, we bought it of France in 18O3, and sold it to Spain in 1819, according to the President's statements...

 

[PreDeadMan]

Harrison is at number one.... and... that's it for the best presidents

 

[cstarace]

Woodrow Wilson ftw

 

[enoch150]

Man if that is what Chomsky wrote you seriously have to stop reading him. No wonder he has been called a Stalinist, rewriting history like that.

With regard to Kennedy, Chomsky mentions the Strategic Hamlet Program, begun in 1961. This consisted of rounding up rural villagers by the South Vietnamese government and placing them in camps surrounded by barbed wire, which the villagers were forced to construct themselves. The South Vietnamese government burned the homes of villagers to prevent their return, and executed those who refused to comply. The plan was designed by the US and all of the materials for constructing the camps were supplied by the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Hamlet_Program

That same year the US Air Force began dropping highly toxic chemical defoliants and herbicides on the South Vietnamese countryside. Agent Orange was used later, but during the Kennedy Administration they used similar substances dubbed Agent Pink, Agent Green, Agent Purple, and Agent Blue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ranch_Hand

 

[TroySmith]

True but Coolidge and Harding both also expanded the money supply excessively which led to the Great Depression. They have to lose a few points for that. Coolidge in particular can't be blamed for the length and severity of the Depression but he can be partially faulted for creating the conditions that allowed it to begin.

Not really. Coolidge openly acknowledged he didn't agree with the Feds easy money, but said he had no Constitutional authority to stop it. It was Congress who was responsible.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

Here is the latest iteration of my presidential ratings list (first compiled a couple years ago, tweaked a few times since):

1. Grover Cleveland
2. Thomas Jefferson
3. James Monroe
4. George Washington
5. Warren G. Harding
6. Calvin Coolidge
7. James A. Garfield
8. Ulysses S. Grant
9. James Madison
10. John Tyler
11. Benjamin Harrison
12. Rutherford B. Hayes
13. John Q. Adams
14. Martin Van Buren
15. Zachary Taylor
16. Chester A. Arthur
17. John Adams
18. William H. Taft
19. Andrew Jackson
20. William Henry Harrison
21. Jimmy Carter
22. Gerald Ford
23. Ronald Reagan
24. Herbert Hoover
25. John F. Kennedy
26. Dwight Eisenhower
27. Andrew Johnson
28. Franklin Pierce
29. Millard Fillmore
30. James Buchanan
31. William McKinley
32. Abraham Lincoln
33. Theodore Roosevelt
34. George H.W. Bush
35. James K. Polk
36. Bill Clinton
37. Richard Nixon
38. Lyndon B. Johnson
39. George W. Bush
40. Harry Truman
41. Woodrow Wilson
42. Franklin Roosevelt

Obama will be included when his term is finished, at which time he is likely to appear near the bottom.

Thank you I think I'm going to paste this in the OP. Can you provide any info on the presidents?

 

[MaxPower]

Thank you I think I'm going to paste this in the OP. Can you provide any info on the presidents?

Sure-- here are some comments:

1. Grover Cleveland-- the best example of genuine fealty to the presidential oath of office, manifested through strict construction and enforcement of the US Constitution's limits on the national government, in all of US history, as illustrated by his issuance of nearly 600 vetoes-- more than all the presidents before him combined. Equally important was his peaceful, non-interventionist foreign policy, best exemplified in his passionate opposition to the US take-over of Hawaii (which he managed, at the least, to delay for a time). He was an outspoken opponent of "paternalism" in government, fought for hard currency in the form of a Gold Standard, fought to decrease taxes and spending (against a Republican congress very eager to run up debt on the perceived credit card that was the American public), and could be relied on to stick to his guns regardless of perceived political advantage. He was the closest thing to a President Paul we've ever had. A story that can bring a tear to the eye: his last words were "I have tried so hard to do right."
2. Thomas Jefferson-- an utter genius, and one of the very greatest proto-libertarian thinkers and leaders. During his presidency, he oversaw the abolition of all internal taxes, the scaling back of the military and federal workforce, the repeal of the Alien and Sedition Acts, the banning of the trans-Atlantic slave trade, and the reduction of the national debt by a third-- the government was operating on nothing but tariffs, land sales and postage stamps, and still running a surplus. On the downside, he did (by his own admission) ultimately break with strict constructionism in his actions relating to the Louisiana Purchase, and the Embargo Act of 1807 which he pushed as a means of pressuring Europe into meeting American demands was a disaster.
3. James Monroe-- cut taxes and spending, substantially reduced the national debt, took a primarily non-interventionist stance on foreign affairs. He did unleash a certain trigger-happy General Jackson on the Indians (grimly foreshadowing certain future developments) in one unfortunate incident.
4. George Washington-- not really a libertarian, unfortunately (he signed on to Hamilton's national bank and whiskey tax bills), but still a genuine believer in the rule of law and not of men, who had every opportunity to be a king or an emperor, but refused, set a powerful precedent against such usurpation, and in so doing gave the United States the opportunity to endure as the freest nation on Earth for many decades. He was also admirably non-interventionist in foreign affairs, and codified it in his farewell address, which has served as a rallying point against imperialism in the centuries since.
5. Warren G. Harding-- his brief stint in the presidency was a wonderful remedy to Woodrow Wilson's eight years. He overturned the oppressive Sedition Act of 1917, freed Wilson's political prisoners, finalized peace in the aftermath of World War I, didn't intervene in the economy when the stock market crashed, but instead cut taxes and spending (leading to a quick recovery), balanced the budget, and reduced the national debt. On the downside, he at least paid lip service to supporting alcohol prohibition (though he did very little to enforce it once he took office and was an alcoholic himself), raised tariffs to their highest level in US history up to that stage, and made some poor choices in cabinet members, leading to corruption (graft, patronage and whatnot) scandals within his administration.
6. Calvin Coolidge-- essentially continued Harding's agenda; he cut taxes and spending, kept the federal government out of the economy for the most part, stayed out of other countries' internal affairs, and cut the national debt. On the other hand, Coolidge was a more vigorous enforcer of Prohibition, to the point of assenting to some policies that were outright draconian, such as a scheme by the government to poison ingredients of alcoholic beverages in order to scare people out of drinking them.
7. James A. Garfield
8. Ulysses S. Grant-- I know some here hold a heavy grudge against Grant for his role in the Civil War, but the fact is, his administration cut taxes and spending, reduced the debt, reinstated hard currency, and generally had a respectably non-interventionist agenda (both domestically and abroad) throughout his presidency.
9. James Madison- he generally conducted himself in a manner befitting a strict constructionist, and was notable as about the only president ever to conduct a major war without engaging in any massive civil-liberties violations, massacring civilians, or instigating any major permanent expansions of the federal government. On the other hand, he oversaw tax increases and signed the Second Bank of the United States into law.
10. John Tyler-- did a good job antagonizing and obstructing the congress during his very brief presidency.
11. Benjamin Harrison
12. Rutherford B. Hayes
13. John Q. Adams-- pushed increased taxation and government intervention into the economy, but did at least tend toward foreign non-interventionism and substantially reduce the national debt.
14. Martin Van Buren
15. Zachary Taylor
16. Chester A. Arthur
17. John Adams
18. William H. Taft
19. Andrew Jackson-- I know Jackson is very popular with some libertarians for killing the second national bank and briefly extinguishing the national debt, and these are great accomplishments indeed, but his illegal and egregious atrocities toward the Indians and distinctly authoritarian use of presidential power (as when he bullied the states during the Nullification Crisis and ignored a Supreme Court ruling that he had to respect previous treaties with the Indians rather than evict them) knock him way down in my book.
20. William Henry Harrison-- it is, of course, a popular meme around these parts that Harrison was the best president for dying in 30 days, but if we're being serious, I don't think this holds water. When the president dies, someone else replaces him; theoretically, even if every president died in 30 days, the government could still grow. Harrison wanted to expand the federal government, although he admittedly barely got to actually do anything toward that end.
21. Jimmy Carter-- gets an excessively bad rap in some quarters these days; he actually oversaw moderately significant deregulation of the economy, and was one of the less authoritarian and warlike presidents of the last few decades.
22. Gerald Ford
23. Ronald Reagan-- a divisive figure in and out of libertarian circles, but I think this is largely because of his compelling and distinctive rhetoric and persona; his policies were generally fairly unremarkable. He did deregulate domestically, and was much less of a warmonger than any of the presidents who have followed in his wake (though still too much of one), but also allowed enormous increases in net spending and debt, expanded the drug war, and had the CIA meddling in foreign affairs in ways that would come back to bite us horribly, among other things.
24. Herbert Hoover-- not a good president, but the burden of blame for the Great Depression is shifted far too heavily onto him and away from his successor, who heavily ramped-up Hoover's bad government-expansionist policies with a fervor and audacious thirst for power which Hoover himself would never have dreamed of.
25. John F. Kennedy
26. Dwight Eisenhower
27. Andrew Johnson
28. Franklin Pierce
29. Millard Fillmore
30. James Buchanan
31. William McKinley
32. Abraham Lincoln-- his atrocities and usurpations are well-discussed in these parts, but I submit that his role in ending slavery is a major redeeming feature which puts him above the guys to follow.
33. Theodore Roosevelt
34. George H.W. Bush
35. James K. Polk-- the father of unconstitutional imperialistic presidential warmaking.
36. Bill Clinton
37. Richard Nixon
38. Lyndon B. Johnson
39. George W. Bush
40. Harry Truman-- responsible for the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atrocities and illegal presidential war in Korea, put the first US troops in Vietnam, tried to illegally seize and nationalize the steel industry.
41. Woodrow Wilson-- a self-described socialist and eugenicist; a radical interventionist (in both domestic and foreign spheres), white supremacist (note that he publicly assented to the accuracy of the film "the Birth of a Nation," which depicted the Ku Klux Klan as a band of gallant knights) authoritarian who lied to the public about his intention to get the US into World War I (he actually campaigned on the slogan "he kept us out of war" while, as is well-documented, fully intending to get the US into the war after he was elected), resegregated integrated federal departments, jailed his political opponents under the Sedition Act of 1917, and was a driving force behind the creation of the Federal Reserve and the institution of the federal income tax.
42. Franklin Roosevelt-- an autocratic despot whose duplicitousness, brutality, and disregard for the rule of law were unmatched. He embarked on the biggest agenda of government regimentation of the economy in all of US history (which severely prolonged the Great Depression), underhandedly bullied the Supreme Court into accepting his illegal New Deal programs, initiated the worst racial persecution by a US president since the Trail of Tears in the form of Japanese internment, became the first and only president to ignore Washington's two-term precedent, lied through his teeth to the American public about his intention to get the US into World War II, undertook a campaign of vicious firebombing of civilian populations during World War II... the list goes on. All told, he did more to break down the Constitution's barriers against federal power, install a permanent big-government apparatus in the United States, set a standard of amoral Machiavellian policy-making that treats human beings like disposable objects of convenience, and put the country on an irreversible course toward financial insolvency than any other individual ever has.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

Thank you Max I will definitely use this in the OP.

 

[dillo]

Don't forget killing thousands of natives, denying them their property rights by seizing private Indian land for state and federal purposes, their civil rights, and ejecting them form the country. Also ignoring the rule of law by refusing the acknowledge the ruling and authority of the Supreme Court when it said his acts were unjust. Then there is threatening to hang every citizen of South Carolina when the state threatened to nullify his tariffs. He was not a good President, or even a good man as far as I am concerned.

how about a no

 

[row333au]

If one had studied the history of the political family Kennedy and Fitzgerald, it will really show a lot of 'not a pretty picture' in terms of corruptions and secret societies within the family - ie: Kennedy's father (Joe) and grandfather (Patrick) intertwine with U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and as the United States Ambassador to the Court of St. James, Pilgrim Society with Harvard University and Democratic Party.

And this is true pattern all the way to the preceding current Kennedys on how and why the demise of their influence and constant evil behaviours and corruptions.

And these are the real reason why a lot of skeptics or detractors against JFK and his brother Robert have real grounds on their negative side of them.

Note of how JFK moved through early his political and business career, his suppose to be heroic acts, and days in senate and his sexual liaisons.

In his first term within few months as president he did get in bed with the establishments, the 'TPTB' and the secret government and king makers. Note again how he was fully into Vietnam war, Cuban Invasion and several strong supporter of the establishment issues including their commercial colonization (Anglo-Brit -American Elite Economic) of the world financial empire.

However during the Cuban missile crisis along with his confidant and right hand brother Robert and with their apparent part of disclosure of things that are privy to the higher powers only, have seen him (and his brother Robert) to change a 180 degree turn in favour of humanity (circa Sept 1962 up to his November 1963 assassination).

He was quoted around January 1963 telling Robert McNamara "this period and the eminent so close Cuban Nuclear war with Russia have shaken my very foundation which made me change overnight to fight evil for what it is, specially what have woken in me of the real reality of the world... my faith and the power I have been given I will do everything right".

Note McNamara was the defence secretary chosen by Kennedy (but during Jonson and Nixon, he remain as the secretary of defence and as the head of world bank).

And in his memoirs, he told of being unable to do the right things but became a puppet or been turn to the higher power .... David Rockerfeller not invited and unannounced at a White House party only for the administration, he took the seat and diner table from Robert McNamara and was telling him what to do. If this is not power over the government what is?....Robert McNamara (including Edward Kennedy) through Rockerfeller was a sponsor of the Temple of Understanding, 'Spiritual UN' for the six major faiths ( the very wealthy in hundreds of billion fund) with its UN official mission with the Arcane School, the international 'group of New World Servers', who form 'Triangles' to work for UNESCO." These were established by occultist Alice Bailey's Lucis Trust, which is affiliated with the U.N. Meditation Room.

The JFK prior to the Cuban Missile Crisis was totally different from the one that made his righteous legacy of fighting the New World Order in favour of humanity.

Case Study in history:

On June 4, 1963, a virtually unknown Presidential decree, Executive Order 11110, was signed with the authority to basically strip the Bank of its power to loan money to the United States Federal Government at interest. It also decree a returned to the federal government, specifically the Treasury Department, the Constitutional power to create and issue currency -money - without going through the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank. President Kennedy's Executive Order 11110 [the full text is displayed further below] gave the Treasury Department the explicit authority: "to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury." This means that for every ounce of silver in the U.S. Treasury's vault, the government could introduce new money into circulation based on the silver bullion physically held there. As a result, more than $4 billion in United States Notes were brought into circulation in $2 and $5 denominations. $10 and $20 United States Notes were never circulated but were being printed by the Treasury Department when Kennedy was assassinated. It appears obvious that President Kennedy knew the Federal Reserve Notes being used as the purported legal currency were contrary to the Constitution of the United States of America.

"United States Notes" were issued as an interest-free and debt-free currency backed by silver reserves in the U.S. Treasury. We compared a "Federal Reserve Note" issued from the private central bank of the United States (the Federal Reserve Bank a/k/a Federal Reserve System), with a "United States Note" from the U.S. Treasury issued by President Kennedy's Executive Order. They almost look alike, except one says "Federal Reserve Note" on the top while the other says "United States Note". Also, the Federal Reserve Note has a green seal and serial number while the United States Note has a red seal and serial number.

President Kennedy was assassinated on November 22, 1963 after 2 days LBJ reverse this Executive Orders. Also President Johnson passed NSAM 273 on November 26, 1963. It reversed Kennedy's decision to withdraw US troops and exit Vietnam, and reaffirmed the policy of assistance to the South Vietnamese Government.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

Thank you. It seems JFK started out as a puppet and then turned good after seeing the horror behind the curtain.

 

[JohnM]

Off topic post . . .

Originally Posted by Galileo Galilei
Accomplishments of president James Madison, our greatest president:


2) War of 1812 the greatest victory in US history:

Greatest victory in US history is one way to describe it. According to Wikipedia, that is not quite how historians see it.

In recent decades the view of the majority of historians has been that the war ended in stalemate, with the Treaty of Ghent closing a war that had become militarily inconclusive. . . .

However, other scholars hold that the war constituted a British victory and an American defeat. . . .

A second minority view is that both the US and Britain won the war—that is, both achieved their main objectives, while the Indians were the losing party. . . .

More recently, historians have begun to agree that the real losers of the War of 1812 were the American Indians. . . .

 

[JohnM]

On topic post . . .

Thank you. It seems JFK started out as a puppet and then turned good after seeing the horror behind the curtain.

Quote from Ivan Eland:

Q: Who is the most undeserving of the presidents that we and our culture generally rate as "great."

A: I think John F. Kennedy. Even historians rate him as one of the most overrated people in American history. He almost incinerated the world in the Cuban Missile Crisis and he gets far too much credit for his behavior during that. He moderated his behavior -- if he had followed the advice of his generals we would have had a nuclear war.

 

[JohnM]

And another on topic post!

Ron Paul interviews Ivan Eland about his book Recarving Rushmore here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx0qtQ7PeB4&feature=relmfu

I found the section from 7:57 to 10:04 ("What was your biggest surprise in this whole research that you have done?" particularly interesting.

 

[Origanalist]

I know some of the people here are going to jump down my throat for saying this, but I believe that Theodore Roosevelt is the best president of all time.

I also think that Bill Clinton was a good president.

I also deeply respect Jimmy Carter despite the fact that he had a pretty bad term.

I will respectfully disagree. While you may deeply respect Jimmy Carter as a person, he was a horrible president. I know, I was there and actually voted for him. By the time he was done with his first term it was obvious to everyone in the country he was a disaster as a president.

Bill Clinton was not even close to being as bad as Carter, but the only reason he didn't grow government more than he did was the sheeples weren't quite as indoctrinated then as they are now. Close, but not quite.

 

[ExPatPaki]

I had to do this back in high school. I'm too embarrassed to tell you who was #1. :o

For our history class, it was Polk because he accomplished all of his presidential goals in one term and didn't run for another.

 

[JohnM]

And how is this for a ranking of the presidents during my lifetime?


1. Jimmy Carter
2. Dwight Eisenhower
3. Bill Clinton
4. Gerald Ford
5. Richard Nixon
6. Lyndon Johnson
7. George H. W. Bush
8. Ronald Reagan
9. John F. Kennedy
10. George W. Bush

 

[John F Kennedy III]

On topic post . . .



Quote from Ivan Eland:

Yeah as I research this more JFK keeps going down on the list. I still have alot of respect for him though for waking up and trying to do good. He ended up giving his life trying to do good for us. I know it doesn't make up for all of what he did before and during the Cuban Missile Crisis. But he deserves to be ranked above all of the presidents who were just flat out evil or were puppets, which is every president FDR and forward, plus Wilson and I'd rank him ahead of Lincoln.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

I would love to hear anything Dr. Paul has said about JFK if he has said anything