LOL
Non Secquitur.
I said OUR culture, whose foundation is Christian, would have that happen if unmoored from its foundation.
That says nothing at all about other cultures with different foundations which remain moored to their foundations.
Okay. But there's no reason to believe that America, having now become a pluralistic society, would magically adopt some rule about murder that hasn't been adopted by any other major human society.
Nonsense.
Abortion not being illegal back then was because it was rare and shameful because of our Christian culture.
^That is a made up argument without any foundation. Link please. Here is a link stating that abortion was once "common practice" in America.
https://www.npr.org/2022/06/06/1103...n-america-a-small-group-of-doctors-changed-th
You can argue against that, but you need to come with a source other than just your opinion.
Edit: And come to thing of it
that argument is ridiculous on its face because abortion after the quickening already WAS illegal! So, under English common law, the issue of abortion had come up enough times for there to be a body of case law on when abortion should be legal and when it shouldn't be.
The law allowed it only up to a point as you point out.
When we became unmoored from our roots they took it all the way up to birth.
No. It became unmoored when some states started passing abortion laws that outlawed abortions that were legal under the
Protestant English Common Law. I think [MENTION=10908]dannno[/MENTION] made a point similar to this that abortion was usually done via herbs (black cohash) prior to state legislatures getting involved in abortions. Regardless, the American Medical Association initially pushed for abortion laws as a way to hurt midwives who were there competition. (See above NPR link).
And the Jews are lying about their religion, unless they are confessing to being the Synagogue of Satan who call themselves Jews but are not.
There is nothing in Judaism that requires them to commit abortions as part of their religion, and the others claiming it as a religious right are the satanists.
Nobody is claiming that anything in Judaism
requires abortion. That's a straw man argument. Rather the claim is that under the Torah abortion is
allowed. That's also a position that most
Protestant churches historically took.
Nobody can back up abortion until birth with any part of the Bible.
And abortion up until birth is not the free exercise of real Judaism, it would be the free exercise of satanism if the 1stA ever was intended to encompass religions of evil that are in direct opposition to Biblical principals.
I gave you Exodus 21:22-25. Your statement that "Nobody can back up abortion until birth with any part of the Bible" is illogical. Coming out with other verses that support your position does not by itself negate Exodus 21:22-25. Add to that Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. " Babies don't have breath until they are born. I'm not saying I
agree with the "abortion is okay until birth" (I do not) but there is clearly biblical support for it. There is biblical support for a lot of things Christians disagree with which is why you have so many denominations of "Bible believing Christians."
Not interested in this conversation right now.
But the legal doctrine of quickening is at least an arguable moral and legal position that was not the start of the slippery slope.
The start of the slippery slope was when laws were passed that went
against that position! Go back to Roe v Wade. Had Norma McCorvey been able to have an abortion up to 14 weeks she most likely would have had one. The law swung too far in one direction and then was overcompensated in the other direction. It's not a "slippery slope." It's an oscillating bridge that is headed towards collapse.
I'm not trying to do anything about banning all abortion here, that's not what we are discussing, we are discussing abortion up to birth as a religious right.
We are discussing what the actual historical Christian (Protestant) position of this country is and it's
NOT the abortion laws Republicans are currently passing! If you are ready to admit that
REPUBLICANS are going against the Protestant Christian roots of this country then we are in agreement! But I don't think you are ready to concede that.
I never said everyone would agree with my exact position on abortion.
I said abortion up to birth was the start of the slippery slope that led to assisted suicide, and if it is granted the status of a religious right it WILL lead to things like Sati and the Thugs.
And ^that is a provably false statement. The problems began with laws banning abortion which went against the English
Protestant common law position and that caused a backlash and now there's been a counter-backlash. There is no "slippery slope." It's an oscillating bridge headed to collapse.
She and all the other Jews saying the same thing are lying:
Having a different opinion from you and "lying" are not the same thing.
Jeremiah 20:17
“Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me.”
King James Version (KJV)
That's nice. Yes a fetus can die at any time in pregnancy. Using your "logic" the
Protestant founeven a 3 weeks dation of this country which allowed abortion up until 14 weeks is wrong because at any time a fetus can die in the womb.
Numbers 12:12
“Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.”
King James Version (KJV)
Sounds like a deformed fetus who dies at birth or shortly after birth. That's interesting because some ant-abortion laws do not allow abortion even for a non-viable pregnancy. This passages seems to go against those laws.
Psalms 22:10
“I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.”
King James Version (KJV)
And Adam was "cast" in the dirt before he became a living soul.
Hosea 12:3
“He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:”
King James Version (KJV)
That supports the quickening view.
Psalms 139:13
“For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.”
King James Version (KJV)
"And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him,” (Hebrews 7:9-10)
"Still in the loins of his father" means God knows people when they are still just sperm. So....every time you don't give sperm a change to be implanted in a woman (which is every day) that's a sin and a crime?
Job 3:11
“Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?”
He could have "died in the womb" immediately after conception. Since
you say that
you aren't staking out an "abortion at conception" position (which goes against
Protestant English Common law,
you cannot honestly rely on this verse or any other verse talking about people dying in the womb.
Isaiah 49:1
“Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.”
King James Version (KJV)
In Isaiah 45, the prophet called Cyrus by name
100 years before Cyrus was even conceived! So that's a non sequitur.
See:
https://www.evidenceunseen.com/bibl...4428-451-how-could-isaiah-predict-king-cyrus/
God's foreknowledge of someone before the birth of both of their parents shows you use His foreknowledge of who that person will be while that person is still in the womb to make any statement about abortion whatsoever.
Judges 13:7
“But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.”
LOL. Again, God is talking about Sampson
before he was even conceived! You can't use this to make any statement about abortion one way or another. It's not like God waited around for Sampson's parents to have sex and his mother to get pregnant for God to declare him special.
Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”
Again
this does NOT advance your position about abortion because it talks about God's foreknowledge BEFORE CONCEPTION!
Whether it's at conception or the quickening it's a person in the womb before birth and they know it.
BS! Some of your verses would insinuate
person hood before conception! That's a stupid argument. God knew before Tamar played a harlot and Judah got her pregnant that one of the sons from this union would be the progenitor of Jesus. That doesn't justify prostitution. He knows which sperm will reach which egg, which zygotes will get implanted and which won't, which will get aborted by nature (miscarriage) or by medicine, and who's going to grow up to be a serial killer or a president of the United States (same difference?)
But let's pretend that it's not, that still doesn't make actively terminating it before birth a religious right, it would need to be part of their religion to perform the abortion as a ritual to be a free exercise of religion issue, only it still wouldn't be because that would be evil and satanic which was never part of the 1stA.
The First Amendment also has a "non establishment" clause. A Christian could argue based on 1 Corinthians 6 that women should be forced to cover their heads just like Muslim countries require. Most Americans would instinctively reject that. America has never adopted that position regardless of clear biblical support for it, albeit just one verse. Likewise, despite all of your protestations to the contrary, America didn't historically adopt the "Because Jeremiah said that he could have died in the womb that means that any time a baby is killed in the womb that's murder" position. That came later. The men who wrote the constitution recognized God but did not seek to create laws that required a biblical foundation. One can make the argument for the "no abortions after quickening" position without relying on the Bible but relying on the scientific knowledge that
at some point in the pregnancy there is a human inside with a mind that can react to external stimuli. But the potential humans that God can recognize while they are still in their dad's loins and mom's ovaries or even before both parents are born can't (to my knowledge) react to external stimuli. So while biblical understanding can give historical context
as it did in the Roe v Wade decision it shouldn't guide the decision.
Even the verse you cited treats it as a crime, whether it treats it as a property crime instead of a murder or not.
Beating up a woman whether she is pregnant or not is a crime so....what's your point?
The satanic slippery slope is real, and the founders would have tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail anyone claiming that satanic murder cults were covered by the 1stA.
The founders allowed abortion up until the quickening. It's not a "slippery slope." It's an oscillating bridge and laws banning abortion prior to when it was banned under English common law are what started the oscillation.
