Government, religion, and "secular" vs. "religious"

[ClaytonB]

While I sympathize with the concern about how far the country has lurched to the left, when I see overreactions to the right I happen to think of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge.

In control theory, there is a concept of "poles" and "zeroes". Zeroes are states in which the system is in complete stasis (and cannot be moved out of it). Poles are where the state is in a kind of "infinite oscillation"... Tacoma Narrows bridge times infinity. The point is that we are not just on a Tacoma Narrows bridge anymore, what the Deep State has actually done behind the cover of darkness is push us up a cosmic pole. Aka the Apocalypse. Clown World isn't just different from previous corruptions, it's uniquely different. There has never been a time like the past, but in Clown World, there has never been a time not like the past in the way that Clown World is not like the past. Every indication I can see is that there has been a discrete break from the past, a discontinuity, an infinite pole, an unbounded oscillation. Right and left don't matter anymore. This is GOOD and EVIL, just like the Bible and Grandma said. I'm not talking about November, either. I'm talking about the world. The old "Left/Right" mind-control paradigm itself is being shattered by the Clown World pole we are currently at. It's all coming apart at the seams. The mask is (literally) slipping.

You have heard these things; look at them all. Will you not admit them? "From now on I will tell you of new things, of hidden things unknown to you. They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, 'Yes, I knew of them.' (Isa. 48:6,7)

 

[LibertyEagle]

And here we go.

Separation of Church and State..... nooooooooo, say the "righteous".

You have been a member here long enough to know that there is no separation of church and state in the Constitution.

 

[LibertyEagle]

I haven’t lived there since grad school, but I was born and raised in Oklahoma. If it is anything at all like it was when I lived there, they will deal with this in short order. If my Mother was still alive, I’d give it until next week.

 

[Snowball]

Oklahoma has every right to ban them and use force when necessary to make them vacate any premises.

 

[Snowball]

All states have the right to official religion if they so choose.

Only Congress can't pass a law on the Federal level.

 

[LibertyEagle]

See, that's where you're wrong. You show up every morning and stage your Two Minutes' Hate and shovel vitriol in every direction. You talk about losertarians and call people cultists and state your opinions as facts and accuse people who don't have the same opinions of being traitors or democrats or whatever insult you can think of. That's why people don't seem to like you.

And then you want to play victim cards like a prog as quick as you can. Oh you just decided not to like me or just get deranged about me because I live in Trump's shadow or, like a prog, whatever victim card you can grasp regardless of whether it makes any sense at all.

The people here who dislike you dislike you because you act exactly like a Democrat. Save your victim cards for the DU. They play crying games over there. They love the third grade game of calling people doody heads until you get hit, then running to the teacher on the prog sites.

You both do the very same thing, Tulsa.

 

[Madison320]

Why mandate the Bible and the 10 commandments for historical reasons and ignore all of the other history before and after? The Code of Hammurabi? The Magna Charter? The laws of the Iroquois Confederacy? It's a transparent attempt to bring religion back into public schools. I agree that there shouldn't be government schools, but they do exist. I understand (and sympathize) with the desire to counteract the rising tide of secular humanism and gender ideology but this is problematic.

I totally agree. Repeal the bad laws, don't add more "good" laws that supposedly counter-act the "bad" laws. In this case I don't even see how studying the bible counter-acts wokeness. How about math, science, reading, writing?

 

[jmdrake]

In control theory, there is a concept of "poles" and "zeroes". Zeroes are states in which the system is in complete stasis (and cannot be moved out of it). Poles are where the state is in a kind of "infinite oscillation"... Tacoma Narrows bridge times infinity. The point is that we are not just on a Tacoma Narrows bridge anymore, what the Deep State has actually done behind the cover of darkness is push us up a cosmic pole. Aka the Apocalypse. Clown World isn't just different from previous corruptions, it's uniquely different. There has never been a time like the past, but in Clown World, there has never been a time not like the past in the way that Clown World is not like the past. Every indication I can see is that there has been a discrete break from the past, a discontinuity, an infinite pole, an unbounded oscillation. Right and left don't matter anymore. This is GOOD and EVIL, just like the Bible and Grandma said. I'm not talking about November, either. I'm talking about the world. The old "Left/Right" mind-control paradigm itself is being shattered by the Clown World pole we are currently at. It's all coming apart at the seams. The mask is (literally) slipping.

Oh....I'm not under the illusion that were aren't past the point of no return. There comes a time when you have to just jump off of the bridge. We may be close to that.

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

 

[jmdrake]

All states have the right to official religion if they so choose.

Only Congress can't pass a law on the Federal level.

Even if you don't believe in the incorporation doctrine (which means states can pass a law putting you in prison for a Ron Paul bumper sticker), all states, including Oklahoma, has some sort of religious freedom amendment.

https://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=84803

§ 2. Religious liberty - Polygamous or plural marriages.

Perfect toleration of religious sentiment shall be secured, and no inhabitant of the State shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship; and no religious test shall be required for the exercise of civil or political rights. Polygamous or plural marriages are forever prohibited.
​

Not sure what the writers of the Oklahoma constitution meant by "perfect toleration of religious sentiment" but picking one religious text at the exclusion of all others doesn't sound like "perfect toleration." Anyhow, we'll see how the Oklahoma state courts and/or federal courts handle this soon enough I'm sure.

 

[Snowball]

Even if you don't believe in the incorporation doctrine (which means states can pass a law putting you in prison for a Ron Paul bumper sticker), all states, including Oklahoma, has some sort of religious freedom amendment.

https://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=84803

§ 2. Religious liberty - Polygamous or plural marriages.

Perfect toleration of religious sentiment shall be secured, and no inhabitant of the State shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship; and no religious test shall be required for the exercise of civil or political rights. Polygamous or plural marriages are forever prohibited.
​

Not sure what the writers of the Oklahoma constitution meant by "perfect toleration of religious sentiment" but picking one religious text at the exclusion of all others doesn't sound like "perfect toleration." Anyhow, we'll see how the Oklahoma state courts and/or federal courts handle this soon enough I'm sure.

I don't see anything there which is pertinent to the case.

 

[PAF]

SECTION II-5

Public money or property - Use for sectarian purposes.
No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied,
donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or
support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or
for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister,
or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as
such.

https://oksenate.gov/sites/default/files/2019-12/oc2.pdf
​

 

[Sonny Tufts]

SECTION II-5

Public money or property - Use for sectarian purposes.
No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied,
donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or
support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or
for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister,
or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as
such.

https://oksenate.gov/sites/default/files/2019-12/oc2.pdf
​

The Oklahoma Supreme Court relied on this provision when it ruled that it was violated when a Ten Commandments monument was placed on the state capitol grounds. Although the monument had been donated by a private citizen, it was placed on the grounds pursuant to a legislative act.

The plain intent of Article 2, Section 5 is to ban State Government, its officials, and its subdivisions from using public money or property for the benefit of any religious purpose. Use of the words “no,” “ever,” and “any” reflects the broad and expansive reach of the ban...

To reinforce the broad, expansive effect of Article 2, Section 5, the framers specifically banned any uses “indirectly” benefitting religion. As this Court has previously observed, the word “indirectly” signifies the doing, by an obscure, circuitous method, something which is prohibited from being done directly, and includes all methods of doing the thing prohibited, except the direct means... Prohibiting uses of public property that “indirectly” benefit a system of religion was clearly done to protect the ban from circumvention based upon mere form and technical distinction...

The issue in the case at hand is whether the Oklahoma Ten Commandments monument violates the Oklahoma Constitution, not whether it violates the Establishment Clause. Our opinion rests solely on the Oklahoma Constitution with no regard for federal jurisprudence... As concerns the “historic purpose” justification, the Ten Commandments are obviously religious in nature and are an integral part of the Jewish and Christian faiths.

Because the monument at issue operates for the use, benefit or support of a sect or system of religion, it violates Article 2, Section 5 of the Oklahoma Constitution and is enjoined and shall be removed.

The Court denied a petition for rehearing. Two Justice joined in the following concurring opinion that addressed the "historic purpose" justification:

While agreeing that the Ten Commandments has historical significance, it is above all a religious symbol, and there is no basis to determine that the monument is primarily historical. Article II, Section 5 does not provide an exception for a religious monument that may be of some historical value. Article II, Section 5 is clear; legislative intent, the nature of the placement of a religious monument, its historical value, and whether a reasonable person would be offended are irrelevant; and any reliance on these factors in applying Article II, Section 5 is misplaced. The only question here is whether the monument benefits a system of religion. The Ten Commandments is an iconic symbol of the Christian religion and is inherently religious. Further, with the initial inscription being “I AM the LORD thy God,” the monument needs no external references to know that it is primarily and foremostly religious. It is honored in the Judeo–Christian system of religion for its religious significance...

Nonetheless, I would note that the historical value of the Ten Commandments is a recognition of the role they played in religion. The Ten Commandments are an iconic historic religious text from the Old Testament. However, the Ten Commandments are not mentioned in the Federalist Papers, the Declaration of Independence, the United States Constitution, or the Bill of Rights... There was no mention of the Ten Commandments in the debates at 1787 Philadelphia Constitutional Convention... The United States Supreme Court has never cited the Ten Commandments.

Prescott v. Oklahoma Capitol Preservation Commission, 2015 OK 54 (Okla. 2015) (citations omitted)

https://casetext.com/case/prescott-v-okla-capitol-pres-commn-1

 

[jmdrake]

SECTION II-5

Public money or property - Use for sectarian purposes.
No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied,
donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or
support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or
for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister,
or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as
such.

https://oksenate.gov/sites/default/files/2019-12/oc2.pdf
​

Well there you go [MENTION=35668]Snowball[/MENTION].

Add to that Article 1 section 5.

§ 5. Public schools.

Provisions shall be made for the establishment and maintenance of a system of public schools, which shall be open to all the children of the state and free from sectarian control; and said schools shall always be conducted in English: Provided, that nothing herein shall preclude the teaching of other languages in said public schools.
​

 

[Swordsmyth]

Why mandate the Bible and the 10 commandments for historical reasons and ignore all of the other history before and after? The Code of Hammurabi? The Magna Charter? The laws of the Iroquois Confederacy? It's a transparent attempt to bring religion back into public schools. I agree that there shouldn't be government schools, but they do exist. I understand (and sympathize) with the desire to counteract the rising tide of secular humanism and gender ideology but this is problematic.

Who said to ignore any of that?
But none of them are as important to our culture and history as the Bible and 10 Commandments.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Even if you don't believe in the incorporation doctrine (which means states can pass a law putting you in prison for a Ron Paul bumper sticker), all states, including Oklahoma, has some sort of religious freedom amendment.

https://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=84803

§ 2. Religious liberty - Polygamous or plural marriages.

Perfect toleration of religious sentiment shall be secured, and no inhabitant of the State shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship; and no religious test shall be required for the exercise of civil or political rights. Polygamous or plural marriages are forever prohibited.
​

Not sure what the writers of the Oklahoma constitution meant by "perfect toleration of religious sentiment" but picking one religious text at the exclusion of all others doesn't sound like "perfect toleration." Anyhow, we'll see how the Oklahoma state courts and/or federal courts handle this soon enough I'm sure.

Toleration is inaction, it does not require action.
There is no connection between toleration and enforced "equal time" for all religions in history class or any part of the public square.

 

[Swordsmyth]

SECTION II-5

Public money or property - Use for sectarian purposes.
No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied,
donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or
support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or
for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister,
or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as
such.

https://oksenate.gov/sites/default/files/2019-12/oc2.pdf
​

That's nice.
But that's not what is happening, unless they go beyond teaching history.

 

[Swordsmyth]

The Oklahoma Supreme Court relied on this provision when it ruled that it was violated when a Ten Commandments monument was placed on the state capitol grounds. Although the monument had been donated by a private citizen, it was placed on the grounds pursuant to a legislative act.



The Court denied a petition for rehearing. Two Justice joined in the following concurring opinion that addressed the "historic purpose" justification:



Prescott v. Oklahoma Capitol Preservation Commission, 2015 OK 54 (Okla. 2015) (citations omitted)

https://casetext.com/case/prescott-v-okla-capitol-pres-commn-1

A bad ruling that needs to be overturned.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Well there you go @Snowball.

Add to that Article 1 section 5.

§ 5. Public schools.

Provisions shall be made for the establishment and maintenance of a system of public schools, which shall be open to all the children of the state and free from sectarian control; and said schools shall always be conducted in English: Provided, that nothing herein shall preclude the teaching of other languages in said public schools.
​

There's no sectarian control here.

 

[Sonny Tufts]

A bad ruling that needs to be overturned.

The plain language of the Oklahoma Constitution too difficult for you?

It's hard to see why the Prescott case won't be determinative in getting rid of the display of the Commandments in the schools.

You cannot have a religious vacuum in your culture, if you do not fill the void with a righteous religion like Christianity it will be filled by an evil one

And naturally you want government bureaucrats to determine just which religions are righteous and which are evil. And just where do they get the theological expertise to do this?

There are places where religious vacuums can be filled. They are called churches, synagogues, mosques, and similar places. No one is forced to attend them, and aside from tax-exempt status and the ability to receive tax-deductible contributions from their supporters they receive no governmental assistance (or at least they're not supposed to).

 

[Swordsmyth]

The plain language of the Oklahoma Constitution too difficult for you?

It was for the court and you.

or
support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion

It's not doing any of that.