Gary Johnson Gary Johnson: Statist

[specsaregood]

I'm no fan of Johnson but using "statist" as some sort of insult is rather lame and amusing.

Oh noes! He's a statist! lmao

 

[Travlyr]

Don't even bother with Travlyr. Every time I've presented evidence to refute his bogus claims he either stops posting in the thread or ignores me.

In one thread, I posted links to actual words Ron, Jesse, and Napolitano have used to support GJ. Travlyr was nowhere to be found. I've posted videos and quotes of him calling for sound money, competing currencies, an end to the fed, and support of commuting or pardoning prison sentences. Of course, because Travlyr makes assumptions and claims without doing the research, he was absent when I provided this evidence as well.

Gary Johnson built two new prisons in New Mexico during his tenure as Governor of New Mexico, and he proudly proclaimed privatizing & corporatizing 1/2 of New Mexico's existing prisons as a good solution to the prison problem. Is that really consistent with "libertarian" philosophy?

 

[Sola_Fide]

Ron Paul is an intellectual libertarian, Gary is a common sense libertarian.

The difference is, Gary makes sense to a much larger portion of the country. Ron Paul's hard core intellectualism keeps him stuck as a minority, unable to win a state, or even anything but about 1% of the electorate. And most of his followers only parrot what he says and don't actually understand the authors they insist everyone else read.

I promise you that Gary will get less support and change less minds than Ron Paul. Intellectualism (i.e. the moral arguments for freedom) must exist for there be true revolution. "Common sense" could lead to anything, and in 99% of the cases common sense leads to statism.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

I've already addressed the logistical standpoint of this issue with you (though you refuse to acknowledge it.) I'm not going to go into the issues with the legislature, overpopulation, pardon process/committee, or the fact GJ has pardoned and commuted sentences in the past.

However, if you are at all familiar with libertarianism you'd be well aware of the anarcho-capitalist wing of the party. Rothbard, Ruwart, etc. That (strong) faction calls not only for privatization of prisons (which is NOT unconstitutional, whether one agrees with it or not) but for privatization of the court systems and nearly all constitutionally approved functions of government as well.

So the short answer to your question is that it's more than consistent with "libertarian" philosophy.

Gary Johnson built two new prisons in New Mexico during his tenure as Governor of New Mexico, and he proudly proclaimed privatizing & corporatizing 1/2 of New Mexico's existing prisons as a good solution to the prison problem. Is that really consistent with "libertarian" philosophy?

 

[rockandrollsouls]

So how much have you contributed to the cause of liberty by posting incessantly on an internet forum since you joined in 2010...AFTER we all worked on the 2008 election cylce

About 18 posts A DAY preaching to everyone. How do you find time for activism when you're on the computer criticizing so much?

My point? Intellectualism doesn't mean a damned thing when you're not acting on it. Might want to do less preaching, more acting.

I promise you that Gary will get less support and change less minds than Ron Paul. Intellectualism (i.e. the moral arguments for freedom) must exist for there be true revolution. "Common sense" could lead to anything, and in 99% of the cases common sense leads to statism.

 

[Sola_Fide]

So how much have you contributed to the cause of liberty by posting incessantly on an internet forum since you joined in 2010...AFTER we all worked on the 2008 election cylce

About 18 posts A DAY preaching to everyone. How do you find time for activism when you're on the computer criticizing so much?

The people that know me know what I've done for the last 2 year's in Kentucky. I don't have anything to prove on the internet.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Privatizing prisons is more than a little scary to me. I don't think making prisons a profitable endeavor is very wise, considering that it seems that judges could be as bribeable by the entity owning the prison(s) as any other government official.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

Not a fan of it either, but no one has provided a sound answer to the situation GJ faced in NM. He did try to keep it in state, under his government. The legislature did not permit it.

But my main issue is the notion the decision was 1) unconsitutional (I could not find any law regarding this) 2) not libertarian.

As I've stated, GJ did try every option before having to go the private route. But a major wing of the libertarian party is in favor of not only privatizing prisons, but privatizing nearly all other functions of government as well. People here will decry Gary, but worship Rothbard. Murray thought the courts should be privatized! Could you imagine that?!!!

Privatizing prisons is more than a little scary to me. I don't think making prisons a profitable endeavor is very wise, considering that it seems that judges could be as bribeable by the entity owning the prison(s) as any other government official.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

You haven't done squat. Keep posting on the net 24/7.

The people that know me know what I've done for the last 2 year's in Kentucky. I don't have anything to prove on the internet.

 

[Sola_Fide]

You haven't done squat. Keep posting on the net 24/7.

Like I said, the people who know me know what I've done. Oooooh, I just racked up another post too

 

[Travlyr]

Don't even bother with Travlyr. Every time I've presented evidence to refute his bogus claims he either stops posting in the thread or ignores me.

In one thread, I posted links to actual words Ron, Jesse, and Napolitano have used to support GJ. Travlyr was nowhere to be found. I've posted videos and quotes of him calling for sound money, competing currencies, an end to the fed, and support of commuting or pardoning prison sentences. Of course, because Travlyr makes assumptions and claims without doing the research, he was absent when I provided this evidence as well.

I stayed out of the discussions for good reasons. I don't care whether Gary Johnson gets elected or not. It doesn't matter to me if people support him or not. I've read Ron Paul's books and I've tried to like Gary Johnson. Ron Paul advocates for implementation of sound money which I agree with. Gary has not yet proven that he even understands what sound money is. The other reason I was absent is because I took a month off.

 

[Feeding the Abscess]

Not a fan of it either, but no one has provided a sound answer to the situation GJ faced in NM. He did try to keep it in state, under his government. The legislature did not permit it.

But my main issue is the notion the decision was 1) unconsitutional (I could not find any law regarding this) 2) not libertarian.

As I've stated, GJ did try every option before having to go the private route. But a major wing of the libertarian party is in favor of not only privatizing prisons, but privatizing nearly all other functions of government as well. People here will decry Gary, but worship Rothbard. Murray thought the courts should be privatized! Could you imagine that?!!!

There's a vast difference between privatizing and abolishing. Privatizing grants tax dollars through government bureaucracy to corporation, abolishing eliminates government involvement in the matter and allows the market to fill the void (if necessary).



As an aside, I love that Murray's rhetoric on people keeping their own money is exactly the rhetoric Ron uses.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

Why do you post Rothbard speaking on the IRS? Completely irrelevant. Because he was not in favor of privatizing an unconstitutional entity, he is therefore not in favor of privatizing prisons?

You might be in denial, but it's well known Rothbard supported privatization of police, the courts, the law, and other functions as well. This is not only a position of Rothbard and the anarcho-capitalist libertarians, but is prevalent in many Mises publications as well. And the defense of this was not only grounded in economics, but in the assumption private institutions are not as offensive as public ones.

People here need to realize the anarcho-capitalist approach to government is just as unconstitutional and wacky as the liberal and neoconservative approaches. Paleoconservatism is the best answer we have so far.

There's a vast difference between privatizing and abolishing. Privatizing grants tax dollars through government bureaucracy to corporation, abolishing eliminates government involvement in the matter and allows the market to fill the void (if necessary).



As an aside, I love that Murray's rhetoric on people keeping their own money is exactly the rhetoric Ron uses.

 

[Feeding the Abscess]

Why do you post Rothbard speaking on the IRS? Completely irrelevant. Because he was not in favor of privatizing an unconstitutional entity, he is therefore not in favor of privatizing prisons?

You might be in denial, but it's well known Rothbard supported privatization of police, the courts, the law, and other functions as well. This is not only a position of Rothbard and the anarcho-capitalist libertarians, but is prevalent in many Mises publications as well. And the defense of this was not only grounded in economics, but in the assumption private institutions are not as offensive as public ones.

You completely missed the point of my post. I pointed out the difference between what is commonly called privatization (government hiring a corporation, with tax dollars, to carry out a duty formerly done exclusively by the government) and true privatization (abolishing the government department or program and leaving it up to the market to fill the void, if necessary). I then posted a video of Murray reiterating that point.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

I did not hear Rothbard reiterating your point in that video. Further, Rothbard did not characterize privatization in this manner. He advocated "privatization or abolition." You should read this article before you nitpick http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard143.html

The moral of the story here is Rothbard was a proponent of relieving the government, through privatization (both forms you've mentioned in addition to abolition and rebuilding) of nearly all of its functions, including those permitted by the Constitution.

You completely missed the point of my post. I pointed out the difference between what is commonly called privatization (government hiring a corporation, with tax dollars, to carry out a duty formerly done exclusively by the government) and true privatization (abolishing the government department or program and leaving it up to the market to fill the void, if necessary). I then posted a video of Murray reiterating that point.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

I'd also like to remind the thread that Rothbard did advocate private defense agencies. He also willfully admitted some defense agenceies will become criminal. However, his reasoning was that it would be far less criminal than the government. Take that for what you will. If anyone wants his exact quote I can dig for it, but Rothbard did advocate for privatization in crime and punishment, recognized there may be flaws, but argued it would not be as flawed as a system entrenched in the government.

THAT is the anarcho-capitalist, libertarian view of crime and punishment. "The lesser of two evils."

 

[Travlyr]

I did not hear Rothbard reiterating your point in that video. Further, Rothbard did not characterize privatization in this manner. He advocated "privatization or abolition." You should read this article before you nitpick http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard143.html

The moral of the story here is Rothbard was a proponent of relieving the government, through privatization (both forms you've mentioned in addition to abolition and rebuilding) of nearly all of its functions, including those permitted by the Constitution.

Let me just share with you what I would do if I owned a private prison. I would get cozy with the judges. I would make sure that they had pretty much all the fancy food and drink that they wish to have and girls too if they wish. Perhaps the girls would be offered some free time from jail if they treat the judge to juicy favors. I would encourage the judge to enforce the rule of law so that society was safe. I would promise the judge to keep a close eye out for people who are not favorable to a "just society" ... lock up the undesirables. The more trouble makers we can get behind bars the merrier. Profits. And I would make sure the judge was able to afford a nice vacation from time to time. I would constantly remind him... a well rested judge is a good judge. A trip to Hawaii is relaxing and free.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

Everything you just posted was completely irrelevant.

You've been hiding behind the notion that private prisons are "anti-libertarian" and no one who is libertarian could ever support one. Well guess what? The guy you've been quoting is the biggest advocate of them.

Fact of the matter is private prisons are more than consistent with libertarian philosophy. Just stating the facts, and I'm not even a supporter of private prisons. You just keep spewing nonsense and anything else you can find in attempts to discredit a guy you don't like. It's pathetic.

Let me just share with you what I would do if I owned a private prison. I would get cozy with the judges. I would make sure that they had pretty much all the fancy food and drink that they wish to have and girls too if they wish. Perhaps the girls would be offered some free time from jail if they treat the judge to juicy favors. I would encourage the judge to enforce the rule of law so that society was safe. I would promise the judge to keep a close eye out for people who are not favorable to a "just society" ... lock up the undesirables. The more trouble makers we can get behind bars the merrier. Profits. And I would make sure the judge was able to afford a nice vacation from time to time. I would constantly remind him... a well rested judge is a good judge. A trip to Hawaii is relaxing and free.

 

[specsaregood]

Let me just share with you what I would do if I owned a private prison. I would get cozy with the judges. I would make sure that they had pretty much all the fancy food and drink that they wish to have and girls too if they wish. Perhaps the girls would be offered some free time from jail if they treat the judge to juicy favors. I would encourage the judge to enforce the rule of law so that society was safe. I would promise the judge to keep a close eye out for people who are not favorable to a "just society" ... lock up the undesirables. The more trouble makers we can get behind bars the merrier. Profits. And I would make sure the judge was able to afford a nice vacation from time to time. I would constantly remind him... a well rested judge is a good judge. A trip to Hawaii is relaxing and free.

And you dont' even mention the lawmakers and bureaucrats that own stock in the private prison companies.

 

[mczerone]

(1) GJ is not a "pure philosophical libertarian." He's what is called an "issues" libertarian, in that on the issues that he cares about, he aligns with the philosophical libertarian solution.

(2) Private prisons vs. State-run prisons is a contestable issue in libertarian theory. While the sentencing powers remain monopolized with the state, the prisons have few real differences. The only things that matter are: service levels, who bears the costs, and who makes money. It is easily arguable that in the first two factors favor private prisons. The third factor gets sticky, because a private individual is directly benefiting from the state monopoly on sentencing. But in the alternative, state run prisons, there are still guards, wardens, and servicemen making private benefits from the state, and state bureaucrats earning monopoly profits from the prison situation. In the end, it seems that private prisons would be the more humane, efficient, and just solution, and would reduce the private gains that could be made from the monopoly on justice.

(3) Regardless of the libertarian bona fides of instituting private prisons, GJ was still a Republican back then, and has seemed to grown more libertarian since.