Gary Johnson rapidly becoming RP's worst opponent for president.

[Elwar]

The only way to solve this is to put the pressure on GJ himself. He needs to be very clear as to what his intentions are in this race and what he hopes to achieve. Is he going to drop out before the primaries? If not, why is he comfortable dividing up the liberty movement and reducing RP's chance to get elected? These questions and more need to be asked to his face.

Have you ever heard a presidential candidate, even a third party candidate, ever say that they weren't in the race to win it?

When asked why he was running in 2008...what did Ron Paul say?

 

[Wren]

Have you ever heard a presidential candidate, even a third party candidate, ever say that they weren't in the race to win it?

No, but if GJ doesn't explain his intentions, then the idea of him dropping out to endorse Ron before primaries is just pure speculation. Are you saying that we should automatically trust him to drop out and not take him seriously at all?

 

[erowe1]

No, but if GJ doesn't explain his intentions, then the idea of him dropping out to endorse Ron before primaries is just pure speculation. Are you saying that we should automatically trust him to drop out and not take him seriously at all?

There's nothing to trust him or not trust him about. His dropping out is contingent on his failing to build enough support to stay in the race. If that doesn't happen and he ends up doing well, then more power to him. It's win-win. I don't think anybody ever thought that GJ was following some ruse of pretending to run for president when he was secretly doing it to help RP win somehow.

 

[Krugerrand]

There's nothing to trust him or not trust him about. His dropping out is contingent on his failing to build enough support to stay in the race. If that doesn't happen and he ends up doing well, then more power to him. It's win-win. I don't think anybody ever thought that GJ was following some ruse of pretending to run for president when he was secretly doing it to help RP win somehow.

You're spot on here. People are try to argue this from both sides and it's not legit. GJ and RP are two different people and have two different sets of ideas. If GJ is not good enough because his ideas are different - then it's fair for him to run on those ideas. If those ideas catch on with the voters - so be it. Its up to RP and supporters to convince people that RP's ideas are better than GJ's.

There are times when it becomes strategic for candidates with similar ideas to bow out. That's why Rudy dropped out after losing Florida. He didn't want to split with McCain. The idea that a candidate must win in the first couple primaries or all is lost is not valid. When did Obama/Clinton settle their race?

Any candidate is in the contest to win. Endorsement-if-losing questions are not legitimate. Any candidate should answer "I plan on winning - in which case I will endorse myself." When pressed the candidate should answer - "I have made and will make no plans for losing." Like when everybody was asked in they last debate if they would endorse whichever GOP wins ... I'd love to see RP be the last to answer after everybody else says yes ... I'd like to hear him call all the other candidates cowards and ask them -
"If your football team is down by an un-winnable amount, should they start running the ball the other direction?"
"if we were attacked by another nation would you support which ever side wins?"
"I'm in this race because I believe in my principles and nobody here represents them as much as I do. I have fought for the principles of individual freedom and a sound economy based on sound money my entire political career. I will never plan on losing the battle for freedom. I don't think our party or America wants a candidate that is willing to plan on losing."

 

[Wren]

There's nothing to trust him or not trust him about. His dropping out is contingent on his failing to build enough support to stay in the race. If that doesn't happen and he ends up doing well, then more power to him. It's win-win. I don't think anybody ever thought that GJ was following some ruse of pretending to run for president when he was secretly doing it to help RP win somehow.

There's one problem with that though: he might not drop out at all. it's not a win-win for people who do not want GJ as president.

Johnson:
Pro-humanitarian wars
Pro-intervention when it comes to to defending Israel
He believes that Iraq, a broke nation, owes us money for liberating them.
Pro-open borders
No where near as intelligent or articulate as Ron when it comes to foreign policy or economics

Many people here may not be "purists" when it comes to a senate seat, but the presidency is an entirely different matter imo.

 

[TheTyke]

I'm not a "purist," however I simply don't trust anyone besides Ron. :\ Every president helps increase the size of government, no matter how good they sound (like Reagan.) I'd probably be happy with someone who actually worked to shrink it, even if it wasn't to the size I wanted... but I'm not sure anyone besides Ron is can be trusted to resist that kind of political pressure and control by the special interests?

 

[Elwar]

Consider this. Have you been inundated yet with Gary Johnson folks trying to get you to go to CPAC and vote for him? Have you seen on Ron Paul sites a bunch of "Go to CPAC for Gary Johnson" links?

I haven't seen any on Ron Paul sites. But he is out there trying to get people to go to CPAC and vote for him. His campaign is working hard on it, trying to coordinate bus rides and getting people discounted tickets.

He's creating his own base.

Wouldn't you rather have access to his base? Work side by side with them so that when the time comes, if he does drop out, we can seamlessly bring them over to support Ron Paul?

Or just attack Johnson and once he drops out have all of his supporters reject Ron Paul because of the treatment they got during the campaign.

Politics aint beanbag. There's no way to know where the candidates will stand next year. I'd rather have 2 horses in the race.

 

[Krugerrand]

There's one problem with that though: he might not drop out at all. it's not a win-win for people who do not want GJ as president.

Johnson:
Pro-humanitarian wars
Pro-intervention when it comes to to defending Israel
He believes that Iraq, a broke nation, owes us money for liberating them.
Pro-open borders
No where near as intelligent or articulate as Ron when it comes to foreign policy or economics

Many people here may not be "purists" when it comes to a senate seat, but the presidency is an entirely different matter imo.

If it's not a win-win for you, then by that logic, Huckabee shouldn't run because it would be bad if he wins. Palin shouldn't run because it would be bad if she wins. Romney shouldn't run because it would be bad if he wins. Then GJ is simply opposition to be defeated - and you have no grounds to say the opposition should put their ideas up against yours in a fair competition.

 

[TheTyke]

Consider this. Have you been inundated yet with Gary Johnson folks trying to get you to go to CPAC and vote for him? Have you seen on Ron Paul sites a bunch of "Go to CPAC for Gary Johnson" links?

I haven't seen any on Ron Paul sites. But he is out there trying to get people to go to CPAC and vote for him. His campaign is working hard on it, trying to coordinate bus rides and getting people discounted tickets.

He's creating his own base.

Wouldn't you rather have access to his base? Work side by side with them so that when the time comes, if he does drop out, we can seamlessly bring them over to support Ron Paul?

Or just attack Johnson and once he drops out have all of his supporters reject Ron Paul because of the treatment they got during the campaign.

Politics aint beanbag. There's no way to know where the candidates will stand next year. I'd rather have 2 horses in the race.

Great point. I've yet to see anything but damage caused by attacking other candidates. We need all these people to win, and can't afford to alienate them. If you're going to attack someone, DON'T identify yourself as a Paul supporter. Going negative is something only to resort to when you have a direct benefit - like in a 1v1 race, to discourage their base from voting. Politics is very strategic, it's not just doing or saying what we want...

 

[Wren]

Consider this. Have you been inundated yet with Gary Johnson folks trying to get you to go to CPAC and vote for him? Have you seen on Ron Paul sites a bunch of "Go to CPAC for Gary Johnson" links?

I haven't seen any on Ron Paul sites. But he is out there trying to get people to go to CPAC and vote for him. His campaign is working hard on it, trying to coordinate bus rides and getting people discounted tickets.

He's creating his own base.

Wouldn't you rather have access to his base? Work side by side with them so that when the time comes, if he does drop out, we can seamlessly bring them over to support Ron Paul?

Or just attack Johnson and once he drops out have all of his supporters reject Ron Paul because of the treatment they got during the campaign.

Politics aint beanbag. There's no way to know where the candidates will stand next year. I'd rather have 2 horses in the race.

No, it would be great for both the RP and GJ base to merge and I understand where you're coming from. I would LIKE to have GJ in this race as well but the key word is "if", IF he drops out. We don't know if he will, and we can't predict what kind of percentage he'll get because anything can happen.

I'm not a "purist," however I simply don't trust anyone besides Ron. :\ Every president helps increase the size of government, no matter how good they sound (like Reagan.) I'd probably be happy with someone who actually worked to shrink it, even if it wasn't to the size I wanted... but I'm not sure anyone besides Ron is can be trusted to resist that kind of political pressure and control by the special interests?

I and probably many others feel the same way you do. The liberty movement has built all this momentum around RP to make sure he wins

 

[klamath]

If he's polling low, he'll drop out before the primaries start, just like everyone who polls low does every election. If I'm wrong and he does really well, then more power to him. If RP can't win, we could do worse than GJ.

Why do you think he won't endorse RP when he drops out? Who do you think he'll endorse instead?

Your asssumtion that he will drop out, not anything from him, in fact everything from him seems to indicate the contrary. What doing poorly means is * to 1%. If he is polling 5 to 8% he will think he is doing great and not drop out before the primaries. He will not win with 5 to 8% and neither will RP. After the first couple of primaries it doesn't F*ing matter if he endorces RP because it will be all over.

 

[RonPaulFanInGA]

It's much better to have one candidate raise all the money and get all the votes than it be split.

The whole 'two candidates are better than one' arguments sound a lot like the same junk used to push the multi-candidate money bomb idea here back in late 2009. "Wouldn't you rather twenty candidates raise $50,000 than one candidate raise a million?" No.

 

[Wren]

If he is polling 5 to 8% he will think he is doing great and not drop out before the primaries. He will not win with 5 to 8% and neither will RP.

+rep

 

[Elwar]

Your asssumtion that he will drop out, not anything from him, in fact everything from him seems to indicate the contrary. What doing poorly means is * to 1%. If he is polling 5 to 8% he will think he is doing great and not drop out before the primaries. He will not win with 5 to 8% and neither will RP. After the first couple of primaries it doesn't F*ing matter if he endorces RP because it will be all over.

If Ron Paul has a chance and Johnson is hindering that chance when the primaries come around, you can be assured that his grassroots supporters would turn on him.

It would be political suicide to stay in if Paul has a chance.

If Paul were at ~10% going into NH and Johnson was at 2-3% and didn't drop out...garyjohnson2012.com (the top two site that comes up for a google search for "Gary Johnson") would not be very favorable to Johnson.

But it wouldn't come to that. He's a smart man.

 

[klamath]

You're spot on here. People are try to argue this from both sides and it's not legit. GJ and RP are two different people and have two different sets of ideas. If GJ is not good enough because his ideas are different - then it's fair for him to run on those ideas. If those ideas catch on with the voters - so be it. Its up to RP and supporters to convince people that RP's ideas are better than GJ's.

There are times when it becomes strategic for candidates with similar ideas to bow out. That's why Rudy dropped out after losing Florida. He didn't want to split with McCain. The idea that a candidate must win in the first couple primaries or all is lost is not valid. When did Obama/Clinton settle their race?

Any candidate is in the contest to win. Endorsement-if-losing questions are not legitimate. Any candidate should answer "I plan on winning - in which case I will endorse myself." When pressed the candidate should answer - "I have made and will make no plans for losing." Like when everybody was asked in they last debate if they would endorse whichever GOP wins ... I'd love to see RP be the last to answer after everybody else says yes ... I'd like to hear him call all the other candidates cowards and ask them -
"If your football team is down by an un-winnable amount, should they start running the ball the other direction?"
"if we were attacked by another nation would you support which ever side wins?"
"I'm in this race because I believe in my principles and nobody here represents them as much as I do. I have fought for the principles of individual freedom and a sound economy based on sound money my entire political career. I will never plan on losing the battle for freedom. I don't think our party or America wants a candidate that is willing to plan on losing."

Yes after Obama won the first 2 out of three primaries it was all over for Hillary. She just wasted 100 million finding that out. At the time I stated hillary was done and people argued with me. Who won? Secretary of State sure doesn't sound like president to me.

 

[klamath]

Consider this. Have you been inundated yet with Gary Johnson folks trying to get you to go to CPAC and vote for him? Have you seen on Ron Paul sites a bunch of "Go to CPAC for Gary Johnson" links?

I haven't seen any on Ron Paul sites. But he is out there trying to get people to go to CPAC and vote for him. His campaign is working hard on it, trying to coordinate bus rides and getting people discounted tickets.

He's creating his own base.
Wouldn't you rather have access to his base? Work side by side with them so that when the time comes, if he does drop out, we can seamlessly bring them over to support Ron Paul?

Or just attack Johnson and once he drops out have all of his supporters reject Ron Paul because of the treatment they got during the campaign.

Politics aint beanbag. There's no way to know where the candidates will stand next year. I'd rather have 2 horses in the race.

GJ has no base. He is trying to take RP's. GJ is bringing nothing to the base that would vote for RP as a second choice. Will eric dondero vote for RP when GJ drops out and endorses RP?

 

[Elwar]

Will eric dondero vote for RP when GJ drops out and endorses RP?

Donderoo has a hard on for Palin.

 

[klamath]

GJ IS going to run, not doubt about that and the point or this thread is to make people aware of what GJ is and see that he stays at *to1% polling so he WILL drop out before the primaries. The last thing I want is to see him get enough traction to think he can win the first primaries and stay in.

 

[klamath]

Donderoo has a hard on for Palin.

and Gary Johnson.

 

[Elwar]

and Gary Johnson.

He supports a rift between Ron Paul and Gary Johnson supporters...

kinda like someone else around here..