Gary Johnson plans to run against Rand in 2016

He should go after a Senate seat as a Republican or even a libertarian. How does the LP expect to win without getting people into senate, house or govern or under the LP banner. Gary will be the best tool to do that.
 
Yeah, but he managed to find people to support him last time. Lots of liberty people don't like Johnson, but I have not heard of any of his supporters from last time jumping ship. I did not vote for him.

Last time it was Mitt Romney versus Barack Obama or some third party candidate. (I voted Virgil Goode of the Constitution Party). The time before that it was John McCain versus Barack Obama or some third party candidate. (I voted Chuck Baldwin of the Constitution Party). Now I'm guessing the average person who voted libertarian in both of those races (Bob Barr and then Gary Johnson) is at least as smart as me and will not vote third party if Rand Paul is the nominee.
 
He should go after a Senate seat as a Republican or even a libertarian. How does the LP expect to win without getting people into senate, house or govern or under the LP banner. Gary will be the best tool to do that.

You mean actually govern as a libertarian?
 
It's not stupidity, it's being non-beholden to a personality. The LP/CP does not exist for Rand, or to have its process held in suspended animation pending the outcome of the other party's nomination season. It's not clear they will re-nominate Johnson either (Harry Browne's back to back nominations were a kind of exceptional situation, it's usually 'one and done' in the LP).

If the LP were to endorse a true libertarian, like Judge Nap, Tom Woods, or something like that, then I'd agree with you. But Johnson isn't even really libertarian. That's the thing. If you want to be a purist, at least actually, you know, be a purist. If you aren't going to endorse Rand, and you are going to participate in the political process, you should at least offer something that is better than Rand. Which Gary Johnson is not, IMO.

Libertarians aren't liberals when it comes to social issues, they don't believe in state enforced "equality".

Rand isn't libertarian, but he's more libertarian than Gary Johnson.

This. libertarians are also at least sometimes against abortion on the grounds that it is murder.
 
Not just "Rand's people." RAND has to announce he's seeking the LP nomination, and show up to get it at their convention in 2016, same goes for fthe CP. No party nomination, major or minor, is phoned in to anybody, especially if they're not even running on that party's platform.

Ron didn't have to do that. Why does Rand?
 
This. libertarians are also at least sometimes against abortion on the grounds that it is murder.

Yeah like, I'm not against abortion up until a certain time because of reasons relating to personhood. But there's a perfectly valid libertarian argument AGAINST abortion. Ultimately I agree with Gary Johnson that abortion should be legal, but I don't consider his approach to the issue libertarian at all. Rand Paul is more libertarian than Johnson on abortion to me, and not because of WHAT he thinks, but because of WHY he thinks what he does. Likewise, my position on abortion is libertarian as well, even if my conclusion differs from Paul's.
 
Ron did not win the LP nomination in 2012 or 2008. I think one or 2 LP delegates voted for him at their conventions though.

But the LP said they wouldn't run a candidate against him if he won the GOP nomination.
 
He got about 1%. That would be enough to cost Rand the election in a close race. Rand's people are going to have to work with the Libertarian Party and convince them to nominate Rand.

It's true that Johnson getting 1% could be a real problem for Rand. But it's highly unlikely that Johnson would get 1% if Rand were the GOP nominee. It would probably be closer to 0.3% this time, as most (or least half) of those who voted for Johnson in 2012 would probably vote for Rand.
 
Yeah like, I'm not against abortion up until a certain time because of reasons relating to personhood. But there's a perfectly valid libertarian argument AGAINST abortion. Ultimately I agree with Gary Johnson that abortion should be legal, but I don't consider his approach to the issue libertarian at all. Rand Paul is more libertarian than Johnson on abortion to me, and not because of WHAT he thinks, but because of WHY he thinks what he does. Likewise, my position on abortion is libertarian as well, even if my conclusion differs from Paul's.

I don't think Gary Johnson is even really thinking about it in moral terms. I think he's just thinking "its a controversial issue, so I'm going to be on the side of less government involvement." That's an instinct that normally works, but in this case its not really workable. Its not just because he's wrong, its that he isn't even thinking about it. Even the most diehard ancaps (which Gary Johnson is not) would oppose a law saying that it is now legal to kill Jews. I see the issue of killing the unborn as very similar.

Even as diehard anti-government control as I am, abortion is an issue I have a hard time really compromising on because of what I said above. Even still, I recognize that:

1. Its very hard to actually enforce anti-abortion laws.

2. The Federal government has no constitutional authority, barring a constitutional amendment, to interfere with the issue.

3. Republicans by and large are not really serious about personhood. This includes Rand Paul. To be honest, it probably includes Ron Paul to, to a certain extent. Until I hear someone saying that Scott Roeder should be released from prison because his actions were actually not murder but vigilante justice, I will consider that person to some extent a compromiser (ie. inconsistent) on the abortion issue.

4. I still prefer inconsistent pro-life candidates over blatantly pro-choice ones, in a vaccuum. Its an important issue to me, not "just another social issue that divides us."

5. Considering how blatantly awful the mainstream candidates are, it is possible that I could vote for a pro-choice candidate, but only if his position was at least as good as the other candidate and he was way better on other issues to make up for it.

6. Blockean evictionism is the one vaguely pro-choice argument that I actually understand and can at least consider to be a valid libertarian argument, even though I think its logically highly problematic. But, I don't really see how a libertarian could deny personhood to unborn children any more than they can to Jews, black people, etc. I can just imagine a "libertarian" in the 19th century saying "yeah, we support equal rights to all persons but blacks aren't people so we can enslave them." It really does sound the same to me, so its problematic and iffy.

7. I understand I am in the severe minority on this matter.
 
I don't know about that when Rand would still be actively seeking the Republican nomination at that time. I'm not sure if all of the primaries would even be over. But I just don't really think that Libertarian Party members would want to sabotage Rand's Presidential run by nominating Gary Johnson. I refuse to believe that they're that stupid.

They ran candidates in 2008 and 2012 against Ron Paul as well, when the latter was pretty much a gift-wrapped miracle from above to every libertarian-minded person following the elections. Yes, the Libertarian Party most assuredly is that stupid, not to mention selfishly invested in their own egos.
 
I don't think Gary Johnson is even really thinking about it in moral terms. I think he's just thinking "its a controversial issue, so I'm going to be on the side of less government involvement." That's an instinct that normally works, but in this case its not really workable. Its not just because he's wrong, its that he isn't even thinking about it. Even the most diehard ancaps (which Gary Johnson is not) would oppose a law saying that it is now legal to kill Jews. I see the issue of killing the unborn as very similar.

Even as diehard anti-government control as I am, abortion is an issue I have a hard time really compromising on because of what I said above. Even still, I recognize that:

1. Its very hard to actually enforce anti-abortion laws.

2. The Federal government has no constitutional authority, barring a constitutional amendment, to interfere with the issue.

3. Republicans by and large are not really serious about personhood. This includes Rand Paul. To be honest, it probably includes Ron Paul to, to a certain extent. Until I hear someone saying that Scott Roeder should be released from prison because his actions were actually not murder but vigilante justice, I will consider that person to some extent a compromiser (ie. inconsistent) on the abortion issue.

4. I still prefer inconsistent pro-life candidates over blatantly pro-choice ones, in a vaccuum. Its an important issue to me, not "just another social issue that divides us."

5. Considering how blatantly awful the mainstream candidates are, it is possible that I could vote for a pro-choice candidate, but only if his position was at least as good as the other candidate and he was way better on other issues to make up for it.

6. Blockean evictionism is the one vaguely pro-choice argument that I actually understand and can at least consider to be a valid libertarian argument, even though I think its logically highly problematic. But, I don't really see how a libertarian could deny personhood to unborn children any more than they can to Jews, black people, etc. I can just imagine a "libertarian" in the 19th century saying "yeah, we support equal rights to all persons but blacks aren't people so we can enslave them." It really does sound the same to me, so its problematic and iffy.

7. I understand I am in the severe minority on this matter.

I disagree with your conclusion/position but I can appriate the insight into your thinking nonetheless. And despite your firm position you seem to be aware that it's still a complicated issue.

To be honest, I don't consider my stance on abortion 'pro-choice' and I don't necessarily think that 'for legalized abortion = por-choice'. Pro-choice is usually framed as a 'woman's rights issue', but how many people that support a 'woman's right to choose' also support any individual's right to choose to do heroin or not to do a seatbelt? I don't think it's a adequately founded position.

I just consider it a private property issue like any other (guns, etc). An unfertilized egg isn't a human (it's only half a human), a sperm isn't a human (only half) and a fertilized egg IS a human, but does not yet possess the cognitive properties necessary to be a person. Since people owner their body and its contents, people can remove any content they wish for aslong as they aren't innitiating force to a person by doing so. So for as long as the embryo/fetus (I'm crappy at details and forgot at what point they develop cognition) isn't yet a person, I don't consider it murder.
 
Between the two, I wouldn't consider Gary unless Rand Paul did something incredibly stupid like ask Jesse Benton to play a role in his campaign. If that happens, I'm not wasting another summer trying to get a Paul nominated only to have him bow out to his opponents before the conventions are even done.

2016 is "Go hard or GTFO" as far as I'm concerned.
 
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If recent history is any indication, they'll nominate the person with the largest name recognition amongst their pool of candidates. I can't see a bigger name than Gary Johnson seeking the nomination unless Rand Paul is revealed to be the antichrist and Ron Paul decides to pick up the lightsaber one more time to fight his son for the fate of the Republic.

I mean, who else would they nominate? The guy here who said he was finished with Rand Paul because Rand didn't outright call for the legalization of marijuana at an Evangelical conference (or w/e it was)?

Mary Ruwart? Gary Kubby? There are plenty of real libertarian choices, but the problem is many of the real libertarians left the LP in the wake of Ron Paul's two Presidential runs and the party is now dominated by the cosmotarians and 'pragmatists". If the LP nominates Gary, they are sabotaging themselves, not Rand. Gary is nothing more than a Rand Paul who can't win. If they nominated Ruwart or Kubby or another true believer, Libertarians and Anarcho-Capitalists might be tempted to pull the LP lever. But if Gary Johnson is the "alternative" then you might as well go with the version of Libertarian-light that actually has a chance of winning.
 
I just consider it a private property issue like any other (guns, etc). An unfertilized egg isn't a human (it's only half a human), a sperm isn't a human (only half) and a fertilized egg IS a human, but does not yet possess the cognitive properties necessary to be a person. Since people owner their body and its contents, people can remove any content they wish for aslong as they aren't innitiating force to a person by doing so. So for as long as the embryo/fetus (I'm crappy at details and forgot at what point they develop cognition) isn't yet a person, I don't consider it murder.

Cognitive properties is where you draw the line? So.....

Can I just kill a person in a coma? The whole point of being in a state of cognition is that you are self aware. People in a coma are not self aware. Chairs aren't self aware and so we don't care about using them to fuel a fire. I would suspect that consistency is something you value and your position doesn't seem consistent with a civilized society (we don't murder coma patients). Would you like to move the goalposts?
 
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