Gary Johnson on abortion

[nate895]

If this truely is your bar, I don't see how you can find anyone electable.

If by "electable" you mean that the person can be elected to public office, then I really don't care. It isn't about winning public office to me anymore; it is about confronting the anti-Christian society we live in today.

 

[GabrielHandler]

I guess what I was trying to say that in the political realm he is pro-choice going by the standard definition (politically pro-choice). However, as Governor he supported pro-life legislation (legislatively pro-life). I dunno if that makes any more sense, but overall I guess I am just wondering if people even noticed the pro-life stuff he did in New Mexico?

 

[nate895]

I guess what I was trying to say that in the political realm he is pro-choice going by the standard definition (politically pro-choice). However, as Governor he supported pro-life legislation (legislatively pro-life). I dunno if that makes any more sense, but overall I guess I am just wondering if people even noticed the pro-life stuff he did in New Mexico?

I recognize them. They don't go near far enough. Furthermore, he believes that in the early stages, the state shouldn't punish the wrongdoers. As with ChaosControl, I believe this is an issue that gets to the heart of our ethical values, and Gary Johnson is lacking on it, and I therefore cannot support him.

 

[Bman]

If by "electable" you mean that the person can be elected to public office, then I really don't care. It isn't about winning public office to me anymore; it is about confronting the anti-Christian society we live in today.

Seems to me that you hold an idea that if you are not christian you are anti-christian. Am I wrong in this belief?

 

[t0rnado]

1) Gary Johnson's philosophy is not based on the NAP, it is based on utilitarianism, but he just happens to be closely aligned with the NAP. That can change at any time if he thinks the NAP is impractical. Similarly, anyone who believes in the NAP can just as easily stop believing if he, all of a sudden, finds a communistic moral code better.

2) The NAP is based on personal feelings solely. There is no rational reason to accept the NAP over "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" outside of a lawgiver. The Christian belief system is based on the living God, who has conquered death and has blessed His people throughout history, and has punished them for wrongdoing. The United States is a covenant nation under judgment from God for abandoning that covenant in pursuit of false gods.

Your belief system is founded upon myths and plagiarized material. Based on what you've stated, it is obvious that you're only moral because you fear punishment from your imaginary buddy. There is no rational reason for you to believe in one bullshit religion over another, while there is a rational reason to favor libertarianism over communism.

 

[nate895]

Seems to me that you hold an idea that if you are not christian you are anti-christian. Am I wrong in this belief?

Yes

Luke 11:23:

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

 

[ChaosControl]

*Note I do kind of agree that Palin is weak as a pro life candidate since as governor she nominated a pro choice judge to the Alaska supreme court. And yes I've heard the "her hands were tied" argument, but that's crap. She could have sent the recommendation back and said she wasn't going to fill the position until she got someone acce

Also she said she contemplated an abortion with her latest child since he had Downs.

That shows she isn't pro-life at all, only pro-life when convenient.

 

[YumYum]

Well, the Word of God is Jesus Christ. The word of God is God's revelation to mankind concerning the things we must know in order to glorify Him and live a fruitful life. The book called the Holy Bible is unique in many ways that distinguishes it from other supposedly sacred texts, such as the Qur'an and the Vedas.

You are correct. According to the Bible Jesus is the "Word of G-d". Many Christians will say that the "Word of G-d" is the Bible.

As for God on abortion when the life of the mother is at risk, God's Revelation never specifically addresses, so I cannot be dogmatic, but I would tend to lean towards the idea that God would allow abortion in that situation since it is not specifically condemned and it is saving at least one of the two lives as opposed to letting both expire. However, all options to save the life of the child ought to be pursued first. It is almost an impossibility given modern medical sciences for that situation to occur, and before that time, there was no way to be certain that the mother or child would die.

You are leaving yourself wide open with the statement I put in bold, because the argument can be made by pro-abortionist that G-d doesn't condemn any abortion. What also can be argued in this scenario is that if abortion is illegal, and while G-d may or may not approve of terminating the pregnancy, it is imperfect humans that would ultimately make the decision for the mother as to whether she will go full term, thus risking her life.

I am against abortion, more from a Libertarian point of view, but there is no realistic way to end illegal abortions, and there are times when a woman's life is endangered by carrying the baby. The woman should have a choice whether she wants to live or die.

 

[nate895]

Your belief system is founded upon myths and plagiarized material. Based on what you've stated, it is obvious that you're only moral because you fear punishment from your imaginary buddy. There is no rational reason for you to believe in one bullshit religion over another, while there is a rational reason to favor libertarianism over communism.

For one, this isn't a debate about the truth or falsity of our religious beliefs, so I will hold off to the proper subforum and thread for that one. Suffice it to say that there is absolutely zero proof that any of the Christian were plagiarized, and actually quite the opposite is demonstrable in most cases. I refer you to tektonics.org to answer your questions. Secondly, I have no fear of punishment of wrongdoing. Anyone who knows the Christian religion knows that the Christian religion is about forgiveness for immoral deeds, and that we have no fear of meeting our Creator because our forgiveness is certain.

 

[ChaosControl]

I am against abortion, more from a Libertarian point of view, but there is no realistic way to end illegal abortions, and there are times when a woman's life is endangered by carrying the baby. The woman should have a choice whether she wants to live or die.

Well we can at least ban the practice and thus never allow funding for it. We can also prevent the procedure from being allowed in any clinic. Will it still happen illegally? Yes. So does other forms of murder and rape. But we can lessen it, and it is our responsibility to do what we can to lessen it.

I can agree with allowing the mother to have the choice if her life is endanger. Then it is a form of self defense rather than murder.

 

[Bman]

Yes

Luke 11:23:

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

That's a bit confusing. That's a yes as in you do believe all non christians are anti-christian?

 

[nate895]

You are leaving yourself wide open with the statement I put in bold, because the argument can be made by pro-abortionist that G-d doesn't condemn any abortion. What also can be argued in this scenario is that if abortion is illegal, and while G-d may or may not approve of terminating the pregnancy, it is imperfect humans that would ultimately make the decision for the mother as to whether she will go full term, thus risking her life.

I am against abortion, more from a Libertarian point of view, but there is no realistic way to end illegal abortions, and there are times when a woman's life is endangered by carrying the baby. The woman should have a choice whether she wants to live or die.

You are correct, I could say it better than I did. However, what I mean is that there is not sufficient Biblical reason, either explicitly or be good and proper logical reasoning given Biblical premises that could lead to absolute certitude that God would find such an action by a woman to be sin. On the case of willful abortion with no danger, the Bible teaches that life begins at conception and that we should not take another person's life that is not sinning in certain manners, so a fetus should be given every right a person outside the womb has.

 

[nate895]

That's a bit confusing. That's a yes as in you do believe all non christians are anti-christian?

Yes, all people who are not Christian are anti-Christian. If you do not bow the knee to Christ, you are necessarily in rebellion against Him. That does not mean that non-Christians necessarily go around insulting Christians all time, just that they have a fundamentally anti-Biblical, anti-God, and anti-Christ worldview that will express itself when confronted with the Gospel.

 

[libertybrewcity]

If by "electable" you mean that the person can be elected to public office, then I really don't care. It isn't about winning public office to me anymore; it is about confronting the anti-Christian society we live in today.

We live in an anti-Christian society? Let me see..We have Christians beating up Muslims and trampling on the 1st amendment rights in New York. We have parishes posting signs that Jesus wants war. We have priests having Harry Potter book burnings. If anything, out society is anti-Muslim, but I would say generally a good chunk of Christians are what is destroying society.

 

[nate895]

We live in an anti-Christian society? Let me see..We have Christians beating up Muslims and trampling on the 1st amendment rights in New York. We have parishes posting signs that Jesus wants war. We have priests having Harry Potter book burnings. If anything, out society is anti-Muslim, but I would say generally a good chunk of Christians are what is destroying society.

Just because a society is anti-Muslim as well does not make it pro-Christian. Furthermore, the Evangelical church's unfaithfulness to Scripture is the primary reason for the decline of Christianity in the West. From the 19th century until today, more and more Christians will not take a stand on Biblical authority and defend with all their hearts and minds. Today, conservative Christianity is more about a misplaced Americanism than it is about worshiping the one true God, the great I Am. However, there are signs that this is slowly changing for the good, such as yours truly.

Only 9% of Americans on any given Sunday attend an "Evangelical" church, and many of those go to churches like Rick Warren's that refuse to preach the whole counsel of God. That statistic is where you need to look to see what has happened to Christianity in our society.

 

[YumYum]

Luke 11:23: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."

Yes, Jesus told his followers that, but today we have a thousand different Christian denominations around the world, all claiming that their way is the right way.

The Apostle Paul says at 1st Corinthians 1:10 :"I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought."

You see from this scripture that Christians are to be fitly united in the same mind and the same line of thought, with absolutely no divisions. This is a commandment from Paul, not a recommendation. Yet, Christians fight wars against each other because they believe their belief system is the correct way and only way to believe.

So, out of the 1,000 Christian denominations in the world, what Christian denomination is for Jesus, and which ones are against him?

The Bible says at Ephesians 4:5 that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism;.."

Again, the question can be asked: What "one faith" is the true religion?

 

[libertybrewcity]

Just because a society is anti-Muslim as well does not make it pro-Christian. Furthermore, the Evangelical church's unfaithfulness to Scripture is the primary reason for the decline of Christianity in the West. From the 19th century until today, more and more Christians will not take a stand on Biblical authority and defend with all their hearts and minds. Today, conservative Christianity is more about a misplaced Americanism than it is about worshiping the one true God, the great I Am. However, there are signs that this is slowly changing for the good, such as yours truly.

Only 9% of Americans on any given Sunday attend an "Evangelical" church, and many of those go to churches like Rick Warren's that refuse to preach the whole counsel of God. That statistic is where you need to look to see what has happened to Christianity in our society.

Christians are Christians. Even if Rick Warren doesn't teach the whole counsel of God, whatever that means, Christians still believe in God. I have had more than 14 years of private Catholic education from strict Catholicism to the more liberal Jesuit tradition.

I had a few friends that were Protestants and non-Catholic Christians. Their congregations were just as money-hungry as the Catholic ones I attended for years.

I respect the teachings if they are actually taught. Unfortunately, the people and churches have completely thrown that idea into the landfill and lit it on fire. In America, there is absolutely zero hope for Christianity. You either have extremist nut cases, abortions bombers, wealthy priests who have profited from their books and tv shows, and irreverent Christians who trample on the bible and ten commandments as they do the Constitution. Oh, and don't let me forget the Theocratic authoritarians and war mongering Christians. That is majority and it is here to stay. I have given up on religion long ago.

 

[nate895]

Yes, Jesus told his followers that, but today we have a thousand different Christian denominations around the world, all claiming that their way is the right way.

The Apostle Paul says at 1st Corinthians 1:10 :"I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought."

You see from this scripture that Christians are to be fitly united in the same mind and the same line of thought, with absolutely no divisions. This is a commandment from Paul, not a recommendation. Yet, Christians fight wars against each other because they believe their belief system is the correct way and only way to believe.

So, out of the 1,000 Christian denominations in the world, what Christian denomination is for Jesus, and which ones are against him?

The Bible says at Ephesians 4:5 that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism;.."

Again, the question can be asked: What "one faith" is the true religion?

First of all, Christ addresses the issue of people who do things in Christ's name but who do not follow exactly with the Apostles in Luke 9:49-50:

49 John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.”

The "thousands of denominations" is a really old Roman Catholic canard as well. First, lots of them are liberal non-churches who are only nominal Christians (UCC, PC(USA), EPCUSA, etc.). Secondly, lots of the denominations are simply national divisions, such as the Presbyterian Church in America as opposed to the Free Church of Scotland or the Presbyterian Church in Australia. Also, within a country divisions within a broader denomination (such as the Orthodox Presbyterian Church as opposed to the Presbyterian Church in America) is because the liberal domination of the primary denomination in a country. In this country, the PC(USA) has become more and more liberal, causing Evangelicals to split with it over the course of almost a century now, and that continues to this day. In these cases, the denominations often have agreements that basically make them one denomination for all purposes besides church government.

In the end, there are only really around eight denominations, which all recognize each others' claims to being Christian and do not deny the others' Christianity: Baptist, Presbyterian, Reformed/Low Church Anglican, Continental Reformed (arguably under the Presbyterian banner or visa versa), Lutheran, Anabaptist, Congregationalist, and broader Evangelical "non-denominational" churches. Outside of this, the divisions are either significant enough to deny the others' Christianity, or not worthy of being labeled a separate denomination.

 

[nate895]

Christians are Christians. Even if Rick Warren doesn't teach the whole counsel of God, whatever that means, Christians still believe in God. I have had more than 14 years of private Catholic education from strict Catholicism to the more liberal Jesuit tradition.

I had a few friends that were Protestants and non-Catholic Christians. Their congregations were just as money-hungry as the Catholic ones I attended for years.

I respect the teachings if they are actually taught. Unfortunately, the people and churches have completely thrown that idea into the landfill and lit it on fire. In America, there is absolutely zero hope for Christianity. You either have extremist nut cases, abortions bombers, wealthy priests who have profited from their books and tv shows, and irreverent Christians who trample on the bible and ten commandments as they do the Constitution. Oh, and don't let me forget the Theocratic authoritarians and war mongering Christians. That is majority and it is here to stay. I have given up on religion long ago.

I really don't know how to answer this other than to say that you can't judge Christianity based on people whose primary motives are not the preaching of the Gospel and the living out of that belief. I do not believe Roman Catholics are Christians, and I do not believe that churches who are more worried about bigger, better buildings and higher tech gadgets to webcast their sermons in HD so people can stay at home in their PJ's and pretend they are going to church. That isn't Christianity. That's guilt assuaging with Jesus stamped on the front.

 

[thehunter]

I think libertarians and conservatives should, of all groups in modern times, appreciate the fact that not everyone who names themselves as a member of a group (eg Christian) is, in fact, a true member of that group -- just look at a good number of Republicans who are not just big government, but huge government! A doctrine must instead be judged on its own merits and, in the case of Christianity, that doctrine openly acknowledges that every member is going to fall far short of the bar, which is why the redemption of the cross was necessary for salvation.

On the Catholic issue, I know that there are saved Catholics out there as I was once one (I have since converted); Alistair Begg, host of Truth for Life, is actually doing a series on his radio programme this week on the matter and does a wonderful job on tackling this issue. In summation, you can't be a good Catholic and a good Christian, but you can be a poor Catholic and a good Christian. The broadcasts are available here for any brethren or curious onlookers who are interested: http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/truth-for-life/ (oh, and countering the view that all churches are money-hungry, they're free too!)