Free Staters Not Welcome in New Hampshire

[Adrock]

While constitutional conservatives may run well in red states, libertarian leaning folks run well in purple states. See Gary Johnson's tenure in NM. NH is an excellent environment for these types of candidates, especially with an extra 20k activists looking to maximize liberty in the state. I wish Schiff would move to NH and run for office.

 

[mport1]

Theres nothing wrong with having multiple states. I wouldnt object to having 4 to cover the north, south, east, and west.

There is a lot wrong with 4 states. The major problem of the liberty movement is that we are a very small fraction of the population. The whole idea is that we need to concentrate our activism. Cutting it into fourths isn't going to help.

 

[Keith and stuff]

There is a lot wrong with 4 states. The major problem of the liberty movement is that we are a very small fraction of the population. The whole idea is that we need to concentrate our activism. Cutting it into fourths isn't going to help.

There are multi states right now. The WY project has produced 1 active political mover in WY right now. He voted for Ron Paul. 1 person voted for 1 person. It has been going since 2004. The WY/MT/ID projected lasted several years with maybe a handful of movers but ended in failure. The Ft. Collins project which started and ended before the FSP started before the FSP produced 0 movers, I believe. There was also Paulville, which failed. Those are the only US liberty moving projects I know about. Out of the 5 projects, I would guess 95%+ of the movers selected NH, 99%+ of the political activists selected NH and 100% of the success related to movers happened in NH. So we have tried 5 projects. These are the results so far.

To make a project like this work, it takes 1000s of hours of volunteer effort. Only people interested in the FSP have shown they are willing to do that. Only people interested in the FSP are putting in the volunteer work. Consequently, all of the positive results are happening in NH.

 

[Keith and stuff]

 

[angelatc]

The people from MA and other areas in the North east totally cancel out anything FSP can bring in. NH is NOT liberty friendly, look at the senators and reps. it's a lost cause. The only benefit is NH's disproportionate impact on the presidential nominating process but even then they picked two big fat losers in the GOP primary: McCain and Romney. Establishment/centrist GOP is strong there. They like their GOP people to be 'moderate' i.e big spenders.

With all due respect, they hashed this out years ago. Wyomig was on the short list, as were a couple of other states. They looked at all their options and decided that NH was the best all around choice.

In other words, that ship has sailed. Let it go.

 

[crossonscout]

State houses don't matter Keith. NH swings around too much. They took it over but lost it again 2 years later, if they held it for a decade i'd be impressed but they didn't and it's not a GOP stronghold like Wyoming. They should have gone there and taken over the GOP because people who live there and who dont pay attention to politics vote reliably GOP. people who vote in NH will vote reliable Democrats or big government conservatives and that's evident with them rejecting Lamontage, Ayotte as senator, McCain and Romney in the presidential primary, the list goes on and on.

So, GOP = Liberty?

Hah.

 

[crossonscout]

NH has a PVI of D+2. While it did vote statewide for Obama, they also passed some pretty liberty friendly state initiatives too. It is hardly a Liberal Democrat Stronghold. It's combination of fiscal conservatism and liberal social leanings would make it one of the best incubator environments for growing liberty in my opinion. I think it is ultimately about concentrating liberty folks in one place in order to effect the rest of the population in the city and state as a whole toward liberty.

Exactly. That's why the FSP makes sense.

 

[Keith and stuff]

This went viral online. It was on Rush's radio show today and in the Union Leader again. Free Keene has done 6 or 7 blog posts on it and the main conservative blog in NH just covered it a 3rd time.

Here is part of the Union Leder article.
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20130104/NEWS0602/121229960
John DiStaso's Granite Status: State Rep's anti-Free Stater post draws local, national criticism
ShareThis
By JOHN DiSTASO
Senior Political Reporter


FRIDAY, JAN. 4: GOING VIRAL. A Democratic state lawmaker's recent web post critical of the libertarian-leaning Free State Project has gone virtually viral in the past few days and, as one might expect, has drawn criticism.

Reacting to reports that the Free State Project is aggressively trying to bring 20,000 supporters to live in the state over the next two years, Rep. Cynthia Chase, D-Keene, wrote on BlueHampshire.com:

“In the opinion of this Democrat, Free Staters are the single biggest threat the state is facing today.”

She went on to write that while there is “legally, nothing we can do to prevent them from moving here to take over the state, which is their openly stated goal,” she proposed making “the environment here so unwelcoming that some will choose not to come, and some may actually leave.”

Chase continued, “One way is to pass measures that will restrict the 'freedoms' that they think they will find here. Another is to shine the bright light of publicity on who they are and why they are coming.”

She wrote that the last election “was a repudiation of their extremism.

“Ultimately,” Chase continued, “the Free Staters want NH to be a platform state for them to export their views to the rest of the country. Some of these folks dress up pretty well, but if you check their website you will find that they are really wolves in sheep's clothing.”

The post this week was picked up by the Breitbart.com website, the creation of the late conservative commentator Andrew Breitbart, with columnist Warner Todd Huston opining:

“Imagine if a legislator had written a blog post targeting the freedoms of gays, or women, or some other minority? One would think that the media would go wild with such a story.





And the end of the article with comments by perhaps the best state rep. in the US (lol, well, he is my favorite) Mark Warden and also Kathy, the #2 Democratic Party leader in NH.

Locally, state Rep. Mark Warden, R-Manchester, a Free State leader, said, the Chase post was “inappropriate, of course, and a bit chauvinistic for anyone to say they don't want people moving to New Hampshire. If you replaced her reference to us with 'Irish' or 'Indian' or 'women' or 'gay people,' she would be in every newspaper in the country as one of the biggest bigots around.

“But it's OK for them to bad-mouth people moving here because they believe in more liberty or smaller government,” said Warden, who, as a real estate agent, is helping Free Staters relocate to the state.

Chase could not be reached for comment Friday.

Democratic National Committeewoman Kathy Sullivan said that while she could not speak for Chase, the lawmaker is entitled to her opinion, “just as the Free Staters are entitled to their opinions.”

Sullivan said Free Staters have a variety of opinions on various topics, but must “contend with” opinions sometimes expressed by leaders in favor of secession, even though not all Free Staters support secession.

Sullivan said that if Free Staters run for office they should “disclose that they are part of that organized effort,” but she said she disagrees with the idea of trying to keep anyone from moving into the state.

“Would I prefer that more people of my political persuasion, who support strong public education, for instance, move into the state? Yes, but that’s not what our democracy is,” Sullivan said. “Walls don’t work.”

She said she was not surprised Limbaugh picked up on the matter, but added, “Maybe everyone on either side needs to calm down and talk to each other.”

 

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

If you replace Free staters with any minority group and any group of people in general this would be front page news. The nerve of this woman.

Exactly.

"Well if we could raise property taxes enough, that may discourage more blacks from relocating to our state."

 

[Keith and stuff]

The top conservative blog in NH covered it again.
This is what the prejudice and bigotry of a Democrat State Rep. can lead to:
by TIM CONDON
A possible threat to incite violence against an unfavored minority. Here’s the story:
http://granitegrok.com/blog/2013/01...d-bigotry-of-a-democrat-state-rep-can-lead-to

A possible threat to incite violence against an unfavored minority. Here’s the story:



Democrat State Rep. Cynthia Chase of Keene has recently displayed an alarming attitude of bigotry and prejudice against libertarians and conservatives who make up the Free State Project movement. Her comments have gone viral, and are being reported today in the Union Leader by John DiStaso.

It’s the Union Leader article I want to discuss. In the comments section after DiStaso’s column, someone calling himself “John Forrest” wrote the following:

“The Free Staters are NOT libertarians. They are anarchists, dressed as nerds. They are obnoxious and work to challenge any and every law they do not agree with. And there are no laws that really suit their purpose. Libertarians work within the system to get changes. Free Staters have made folls and nuisances of themselves for the publicity of their cause. They are closer to the wall street occupiers than any legitimate libertarian. Had the District Court Judge in Keene had a spine and had the local police had the slightest amount of desire to do their job, the Free Staters would have been arrested on a regular basis and been sent to jail every time they came in. I disagree with Ms Chase….they are not a threat. They can be dealt with through competent and aggressive legal action. And they can be dealt with in other ways as well if they cause to much trouble.”

I’ve added emphasis on that last sentence. What exactly does that mean? How can the “obnoxious Free Staters” be “dealt with” other than through the police and justice system? I’ll say the obvious: It is a threat to incite violence against a minority, not unlike a racist threatening violence against another racial group. (The Free State Project on its web site, by the way, explicitly denounces those who advocate violence as a way to address political issues)

Will there be a police investigation of this person and his threat? Mentally unstable people who may be prone to violence often give hints and warnings about what they’re planning before they take action. Is this such a warning by such an individual? For everyone’s safety, it should be looked into by the authorities. Stay tuned….

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Tom Woods writes:


The great Free State Project (FSP) involves having pro-freedom individuals and families move to the Granite State in order to create an environment for the realization of "liberty in our lifetime," as the FSP puts it. Democratic State Rep. Cynthia Chase calls them "the single biggest threat the state is facing today."Whatever can be done about these people who favor nonviolence in interpersonal relations?

Her answer: "There is, legally, nothing we can do to prevent them from moving here to take over the state, which is their openly stated goal. In this country you can move anywhere you choose and they have that same right. What we can do is to make the environment here so unwelcoming that some will choose not to come, and some may actually leave. One way is to pass measures that will restrict the 'freedoms' that they think they will find here.... Cheshire County is a welcoming community but not to those whose stated goal is to move in enough ideologues to steal our state, and our way of life."

Let's translate this from Politico into English: "Unfortunately, people have the right to move anywhere they like in this country. There's nothing we can do about that. But if we make New Hampshire a less desirable place to live, with fewer freedoms, maybe people seeking freedom will be less likely to settle here. We have a way of life here, you see. Our way of life consists of sticking a gun in people's ribs and taking their things, in order that those things may be distributed to powerful constituencies from whom we public servants expect to win votes. This is one of our sacred traditions. If you are philosophically opposed to the use of violence in the service of political ends, you are an ideologue. Ideologues are not welcome here. We are welcoming to everyone who delights in having a gun shoved in his ribs."

The above originally appeared in Tom's free monthly email newsletter. You can sign up here.​

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2012/12/free-staters-not-welcome-in-new.html

More at
http://www.dailypaul.com/267569/free-state-project-is-winning

That is just insane. I've never heard something so ridiculous. She is literally saying, "Let's make it SO bad here that people will WANT to move away!"

I mean, WTF?! What "way of life" is being threatened by more liberty? She doesn't even explain why it's a bad thing that liberty-oriented individuals want to live there. Obviously, she wants to protect the way of the state, but trying to solve the problem by restricting freedom so much that nobody wants to live there is truly a cure worse than the disease. I just can't fathom why she wouldn't realize what she's saying. She's willing to sacrifice that much just to keep liberty people from getting their way. It's ludicrous.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

If you replace Free staters with any minority group and any group of people in general this would be front page news. The nerve of this woman.

It's like the Jim Crow laws for libertarians. What if she had said, "Let's pass measures that make it so unfavorable for black people to live here that they will move." It's the worst kind of discrimination because it's the kind that nobody bats an eyebrow at.

 

[Keith and stuff]

That is just insane. I've never heard something so ridiculous. She is literally saying, "Let's make it SO bad here that people will WANT to move away!"

I mean, WTF?! What "way of life" is being threatened by more liberty? She doesn't even explain why it's a bad thing that liberty-oriented individuals want to live there. Obviously, she wants to protect the way of the state, but trying to solve the problem by restricting freedom so much that nobody wants to live there is truly a cure worse than the disease. I just can't fathom why she wouldn't realize what she's saying. She's willing to sacrifice that much just to keep liberty people from getting their way. It's ludicrous.

Not sure if she just wants to violate the NH Constitution and her oath of office or if she wants to do the #1 thing free staters don't like. In Keene, the Democrats and free staters have the same #1 complaint. It is high property tax rates in Keene. As a state rep, she has the power to vote to reduce local property taxes in the county Keene is located in. There is a big disconnect though. The Democratic voters of The city of Keene complain about the high property tax rates. However, the elected reps in Keene, almost always Democratic, almost always vote to increase property tax rates. So she would likely do what she could to piss off free staters anyway.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I agree in not using any of those words but take it further in not wanting to do that. We learned that lesson before Ron Paul ran for the GOP nomination in 2008 and I keep sharing it with people. We will never be a majority or even large minority in any county and there is no need to be. We have already proven that a tiny minority can help increase freedom. Anyway, counties in New England have very little power compared to counties in the West and South. VT partly privatized sheriffs. MA got rid of several counties. Some Republicans are looking into ending counties in NH to save money. Counties are a drain on freedom (with their rules and taxes).

Towns are where it is at. Towns don't have a mayor or leader. The people of the town vote on the budget line by line. However, depending on the town, the people usually vote the way the volunteer selectmen or budget committee members suggest. Or you could just pass a town spending cap and a town tax cap. The key is to get liberty people to run for state rep., selectmen and budget committee. State reps. vote on the of county budget by themselves. For example, in 2 of the 3 largest counties last year, state reps voted to not increase spending, and free staters only made up less than 10% of the reps in those counties.

With 20,000 activist and a few years, NH could be twice as free as any other state.

Towns don't have mayors? That's news to me. I live in a town of about 1,000 people and we have a mayor.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

+rep for angry homophobic rant

Homophobic? What, because he said the word dyke? People are way too sensitive these days.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Good points, but one thing that you're missing is that liberty comes from more than just winning the game of politics.. it comes from your neighbors. For example, I live in an apartment (mistake #1, I know), and last weekend I had the music pretty loud. I am never loud. I've never caused any problems.

What do my neighbors do? Do they knock on my door and ask me to keep it down? No. They call the cops.

My statist fucking neighbors didn't even have the common courtesy to knock on my door and talk to me before calling the authorities. These are the kinds of people we're dealing with. No amount of politics can solve this problem... as long as you have statist neighbors, you will have statist problems.

I notice Grafton is about an hour away from Manchester... does Manchester have IT jobs?

Yes. It wasn't long after getting into Ron Paul's first presidential bid that I realized, for all intents and purposes, we, like liberty itself, are royally screwed. People are just too damned stupid.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Insane and impractical for 1000 people to move to a town of 1500 because...WHY? Not enough housing, for one. They'll have to relax restrictions/permitting, no? I mean, people ARE free to move there, yes? Officials can't very well ROUND THEM UP & DEPORT THEM, can they? Something would HAVE to give. Something would HAPPEN.

Think, BOOM TOWN.

I'd feel better about living in a town of 2500 that is struggling with growing pains but in which more than half of the people think substantially like me, than about living in a state of 1,300,000 sprinkled with 20,000 who think like me.

That just never happens. A thousand people aren't going to invade a small town and sleep wherever until they relax restrictions and people can build houses or whatnot. That would take too long. Most people aren't willing to become homeless simply to become the majority in a single town. The cost outweighs the benefits. I'm not even saying it shouldn't happen, but if people are going to act in their best interest, which they ALWAYS will, this will never happen, EVER. They are free to move there only as long as they have a place to stay. You can't just crowd in the streets and hold everything up with the intent of doubling the economy of the town literally overnight.

In what way does this strike you as being feasible?

 

[PaulConventionWV]

cool bro i moved up a year ago and have been active promoting and attending every liberty event since then and have no idea what you are talking about.

have we met before? have you ever come out to any liberty events?

Obviously this is a case of differing perceptions of attitude. What is normal to some people might be completely outlandish to others. You could be one of the assholes yourself, which would logically prevent you from seeing FSPers as "assholes" since the way they behave is also the way you behave. Then again, it could be the other way around, so don't think I'm attacking your character. Just saying FSP people aren't exactly neutral observers.

 

[Keith and stuff]

Towns don't have mayors? That's news to me. I live in a town of about 1,000 people and we have a mayor.

Some of the larger towns in NH do. Almost all don't. Usually the people of the town are the government and the select board and budget board help the people run the government. Sometimes the day to day minor stuff is done by a town manager. NH is much more democratically run in local government than other places in the US, generally.

 

[invisible]

I also have no idea what he is talking about. I do admit that some of us know substantially more about effective NH politics than almost all of the nonFSPers. That is how we have been so successful in such a short period of time. For every 10 FSPers in NH, we have won 1 election. So maybe I come off as click like when there is a group of people in a room and I stay in one area talking about state politics. Otherwise, I am confused by his post.

Invisible, if you PM me, I'll be glad to talk to you on the phone. Feel free to call me from a fake number and not use your real name if you want.

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with electoral politics. I'm talking about how people behave:

A freestater owns a business, and the employees are treated like crap. Several people who do or have worked there (not all of them freestaters), have all told horror stories of one sort or another about how they are treated. How do you think that this reflects on freestaters?

After arriving in NH, a couple went to a "new movers' welcome" event. They returned from the event shocked and upset. They were told that they had been repeatedly insulted because they had managed to line up jobs in NH before moving. They were told that they were not real activists because they had somehow not "paid their dues".

Keith, you even mention (elsewhere in this thread) the FTP. How freestaters acted in this situation resulted in a PR disaster a few years ago.

Shem's own dismissive post proves my point even further, as this is exactly the type of attitude I'm talking about. His insinuation is that because I can't afford to attend a bunch of paid events, I don't know what I'm talking about and therefore must not be a real activist. Apparently it is impossible to be a real libertarian activist unless one has money to throw around on attending "events". And forget the fact that I live here, my own personal observations and interactions with others obviously must not count for anything.

I don't know why it is, but in my own personal observations and social interactions, there very much so seems to be a higher "asshole factor" among freestaters than in the population in general. I've simply been much more successful on a social basis with the locals. YMMV, and will, since it will be different on an individual basis. I'm not accusing you (or Shem, or anyone else here) of being part of a clique, Keith. This is simply how things work with ANY group of people, organized or not. Generally speaking, those worst suited (authoritarians, assholes, power mongers, big egos, etc) for leadership will ALWAYS be the ones to seek some sort of position of leadership / control / influence. This is simply human nature. Just as in government, the same thing has happened within the FSP.

A few months ago, someone dared to question some financial doings of the FSP. For this, they were subjected to a series of personal attacks, and a campaign by "the clique" to ostracize them socially. Dissent is obviously not tolerated, nor is questioning decisions of "leadership". Doesn't this sound like the government? Or a bunch of immature kids? Worst of both worlds, here. Look at the reaction here to my own dissenting opinion, and how I was personally attacked for expressing it. Isn't being able to dissent without fear of reprisal a key aspect of freedom? This would seem to be evidence that the FSP has become or is becoming exactly what they claim to oppose!

This is why it is a bad idea to monetize the FSP and pay people within the organization, it will simply become further corrupted. Freestaters speak of how important it is to not pay people (a significant amount) in the state legislature, this is no different. The FSP will just become, and grow to be seen as, another organization out to profit from people's desire for freedom.

With people acting in this manner, is it any wonder that there is a backlash against the FSP? Sure, what that woman said about keeping people out of the state was way over the top. Sure, she needs to be called out, and voted out of office. But at the same time, many freestaters should not be throwing stones in glass houses, and should be concentrating on cleaning up their own act and image as well.

Keith, don't you already have my phone number? Thought I gave it to you a while back, of course you are welcome to call me anytime.