FREDHEADS: Compare Fred Thompson to Ron Paul here

[GunnyFreedom]

Its funny you mention that Gunny. My perspective comes from serving under the ocean on Trident Missile Sub.

A fact that Hannity and the media will never admit to. They make more money of of fighting the war THIS way, so they denigrate Paul's plan because they will make less money, and to do so, they try to convince people that no military folk actually like Ron Paul's foreign policies.

My father was a GMM1, and worked very closely with the Polaris missile project in Goose Creek, SC.

I gotta ask, anyone else enjoying the heck out of this thread? Bloody brilliant discussions.

Definately! I believe the influx of Thompson supporters will help us to define our positions more clearly, and the debate/discussion surrounding that will make all of us stronger as a result.

 

[ShowMeLiberty]

One of the most well reasoned arguments for bringing the troops home that I've ever heard. Thank you very much.

I completely agree. GunnyFreedom, you ought to write it up for the OpEd pages!

I'd like to interject another very good benefit of bringing all our troops back home, if I may. It isn't mentioned often, but having all of our military personnel within US borders, filling military bases within the US, is going to be a MAJOR boost to the economies of the communities that host those bases.

There is a reason that most communities fought to keep their local military base when the closings were being decided. Military members and families spend a LOT of money in those communities. And there are LOTS of civilian jobs on large military bases.

We are in the early stages of some hard economic times right now. Bringing home the troops would be one form of "economic stimulus" that would REALLY WORK.

 

[Carl Corey]

I don't agree that we should just bail on Iraq. I don't know how we disengage without being seen as being weak by the Islamo-facists and inviting them to test their mettle here. What is Dr. Paul's plan? I haven't found much information on it except that we should bring the troops home.

They'll find a new nation to hate within 4 years of the USA pulling out. Once we pull out they'll be too busy fighting eachother anyways.

Also keep in mind we don't have the economic strength to support these wars either, that's the real sign of weakness, that the US can exhaust itself engaging war on two borderline 3rd world nations.

What about intelligence? If we pull our entire global military presence back home(not an idea i'm opposed to), how are we going to know what the people that mean to do us harm are doing? And, it has to be intelligence that can be trusted.

It'd be better to focus on domestic intelligence. If you look at Europe the real challenge is to slow down muslim immigration to the USA and assimilate the current muslim population, that's the real threat. Riots as seen in France are only 40 years away, and by then the problem will be too big to deal with.

My major concern is how do we project strength in withdrawl. What are Dr. Paul's plans to speak softly and carry a big stick. Diplomacy cannot be the only option in all situations. And the only way to negotiate from a position of strength in all dealings is to know your opponents weaknesses, and that requires intelligence.

The weakness of the USA is its dependence on oil, we've been crawling through the dirt for the most inane nations to keep their oil coming for the past 35 years.

Oil is the only thing the Middle East has to offer, and the only thing worth negotiating about. We don't need militairy strength for this, but alternative energy sources so we can boycot their export product if needed. True strength comes from independence, not the ability to pummel someone else.

 

[chucksheen]

Since this is a comparison thread:

Republican Voters Guide:
http://forums.hattiesburgamerican.com/viewtopic.php?t=15585

 

[BrianB34]

They'll find a new nation to hate within 4 years of the USA pulling out. Once we pull out they'll be too busy fighting eachother anyways.

A point that I'm willing to concede is that their tribal animosity will override their hatred for us when we remove ourselves from the sandbox. The problem I have is that states like Iran have stated their objective is the destruction of the US. To me that doesn't sound like someone that is going to stop gunning for us after we roll out.

Also keep in mind we don't have the economic strength to support these wars either, that's the real sign of weakness, that the US can exhaust itself engaging war on two borderline 3rd world nations.

On this point we do agree.

It'd be better to focus on domestic intelligence. If you look at Europe the real challenge is to slow down muslim immigration to the USA and assimilate the current muslim population, that's the real threat. Riots as seen in France are only 40 years away, and by then the problem will be too big to deal with.

Unless and until the 2nd amendment is truly overridden, I do not believe that we will see riots such as were seen in France. Too many patriots like GunnyFreedom around to allow that to happen. The right to peaceful assemble ends at the first rock through a windshield.

The weakness of the USA is its dependence on oil, we've been crawling through the dirt for the most inane nations to keep their oil coming for the past 35 years.

Oil is the only thing the Middle East has to offer, and the only thing worth negotiating about. We don't need militairy strength for this, but alternative energy sources so we can boycot their export product if needed. True strength comes from independence, not the ability to pummel someone else.

While I do agree with you that true strength is derived from independence, alternative energy sources are not going to appear in the short term. The infrastructure required for delivery of any kind of alternative energy besides Nuclear Power just does not exist, and Nuclear Power plants do not get built in couple of months. True viable alternative energy is 7-10 years away. What is the short term plan to limit our dependence on foreign oil markets? Btw...The number 1 importer of Oil into the US is Canada. Number 2 is Mexico. I'm don't want to talk about the NAU at this time, because I live in Oklahoma, and the threat of the NAFTA Superhighway is a very real thing. But, the point I'm trying to make is that we do not import most of our oil from the OPEC nations. The problem is, is that the OPEC nations control the majority of the production for the rest of the world, and that sets the futures.

 

[BrianB34]

Well, thanks. I honestly and sincerely appreciate your willingness the even discuss these matters objectively. Time and again I have run into McCain supporters who buy the propaganda and think anybody who supports Ron Paul is a hippy peace-nik who has wet dreams of being defeated by a foreign enemy. Clearly that is not the case.

I will admit that I at one time fell into that category(not as a McCain supporter ACK!!! The man absolutely terrifies me from a Constitutional viewpoint, but on the hippy peace-nik view). And, I'll admit that it was a failure on my part not to do better due diligence concerning the matter. That's why I'm here.

As far as the discussion, we can disagree and disagree vehemently on anything, and we may even think the other guys a loon for not seeing our point of view, but that doesn't mean we can discuss it rationally, and treat each other with respect and dignity. How, I have always viewed debate anyway.

Thank you for your service.

Uhhh rah

Semper Fi

I wasn't in the Corps but I was raised by one that served in the Corps

 

[TreeOfLiberty]

This is BrianB34

This was the name that I picked as a user name, but I couldn't wait for the moderators to vet me before I started posting so I came up with the other as a quick work around.

Thank you all for sharing your views and answering my questions. I will continue my research on Dr. Paul. I look forward to continuing our discussions.

 

[ShowMeLiberty]

This was the name that I picked as a user name, but I couldn't wait for the moderators to vet me before I started posting so I came up with the other as a quick work around.

Thank you all for sharing your views and answering my questions. I will continue my research on Dr. Paul. I look forward to continuing our discussions.

Welcome! So glad you decided to join us. We need all the intelligent, well-informed voters we can find.

 

[zmyrick19]

I believe the major thing we must do is curb oil consumption. The tax breaks Dr. Paul advocates for small businesses would allow many more businesses to spring up in rural areas. This would help limit alot of the driving we as Americans do. I know hundreds of people that drive 100+ miles every day just to go to work in a major city.

Feel free to brainstorm other ways Dr. Paul's economic ideals would help lower foreign oil dependency.

 

[IndieRocker79]

My major concern is how do we project strength in withdrawl. What are Dr. Paul's plans to speak softly and carry a big stick. Diplomacy cannot be the only option in all situations. And the only way to negotiate from a position of strength in all dealings is to know your opponents weaknesses, and that requires intelligence.

Well, Brian, to answer that question I would have to say that how can we project strength in scattering our forces all over the world? Diplomacy with idle threats of military intervention which we cannot support will never work very well either. Play the numbers game, because I'm sure places like Iran are. If Iran were to attack our forces today, do you feel we have the economic ability to fund a large war in Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan and maintain our strong numbers in UN and NATO operations around the world? And if we DID have the economic ability, where do we get the troop levels and supply levels necessary for such an endeavor?

The only way to negotiate from a position of strength is to have the ability to back up our threats that if our liberties are oppressed from an outside nation, we will be there to stomp them down. We can't support the foreign policy we have today and still be able to make said threats from a standpoint that any nation would believe. We are more vulnerable at home today than we ever were in 2001. It's time to acknowledge this and stop intervening militaristically in every single matter in which we can, but rather use a diplomatic approach whenever possible.

Strength comes in setting a good example for the rest of the world. I think strength also comes from admitting our mistakes. I feel we could pull off this withdrawl from a very strong stance and garner many more allies than enemies from such a new foreign policy.

 

[Carl Corey]

The problem I have is that states like Iran have stated their objective is the destruction of the US. To me that doesn't sound like someone that is going to stop gunning for us after we roll out.

I think Iran only wants the destruction of Israel though I guess some people spin that for obvious reasons, Israel can take care of itself though.

The infrastructure required for delivery of any kind of alternative energy besides Nuclear Power just does not exist, and Nuclear Power plants do not get built in couple of months. True viable alternative energy is 7-10 years away. What is the short term plan to limit our dependence on foreign oil markets?

Yes, this worries me too. We don't have as many nuclear plants as we should, we don't reprocess spend fuel which is just plain stupid. Wind energy is promoted even though it's not a viable alternative energy source.

Ron Paul doesn't oppose nuclear energy, but other than that there doesn't seem to be a plan. Not even the experts have the answer though, so besides funding the construction of nuclear plants and dams there is little that can be done, unless funding for some major research is provided. Giuliani seems the best candidate to me when it comes to this issue.

 

[TreeOfLiberty]

I believe the major thing we must do is curb oil consumption. The tax breaks Dr. Paul advocates for small businesses would allow many more businesses to spring up in rural areas. This would help limit alot of the driving we as Americans do. I know hundreds of people that drive 100+ miles every day just to go to work in a major city.

Feel free to brainstorm other ways Dr. Paul's economic ideals would help lower foreign oil dependency.

My understanding of our consumption of oil has less to do with our driving habits and more to do with our consumption habits. We refine more oil for use in other industry than just fuel to use in our vehicles. Fossil fuels power our industry. We have too large reserves that would supplant anything that we import from the middle east if we would allow them to be tapped.

I agree that truly free market solutions will bring about viable alternate engery solutions. Wind and Solar are not viable. Neither is grain ethanol. It takes more energy to produce ehtanol for fuel than the fuel produces. Makes very little sense to me to go down that route considering the impact it is having on food prices. Cellulosic ethanol has some promise...but I'm sold that it's the answer. It just doesn't have the lower heating value required to deliver the energy required.

Coal gasification and liquification has promise if we would remove the regulations.

Short term, there is no way we get off oil. But starting your SUV every morning isn't causing our problems.

 

[RonPaulalways]

The problem I have is that states like Iran have stated their objective is the destruction of the US. To me that doesn't sound like someone that is going to stop gunning for us after we roll out.

It's not Iran we need to worry about. The only reason there is some heated rhetoric coming out of Iran once in a while is because of the US's support for Israel, and Israel's possession of over 200 nuclear bombs.

Iran will under go a revolution and become a pure republic within 5 years of the US ending the sanctions and taking an even handed approach in the middle east.

 

[Fyretrohl]

My understanding of Dr Paul's position on how to loosen up our dependence on foreign oil is to allow the states to decide to do with their resources. IE: Free Utah to go after its clean coal. Free Alaska, Florida, or other states to choose to open up their oil fields. We are dependent on other countries, because, people want to refuse to allow us to use our own resources.

 

[dblee]

I didn't include Obama in the fascist-police-state makers above, not because he is any less dangerous, but because I think his danger probably comes from a different direction. I just can't identify that direction as yet.

Communist-police state.

 

[Gammerus]

My understanding of Dr Paul's position on how to loosen up our dependence on foreign oil is to allow the states to decide to do with their resources. IE: Free Utah to go after its clean coal. Free Alaska, Florida, or other states to choose to open up their oil fields. We are dependent on other countries, because, people want to refuse to allow us to use our own resources.

Then maybe we could finally work on solar energy in Arizona. We only have three things in Arizona: Cactus, Citrus, and Sun. It is about time the desert sun was good for something other than skin cancer.

 

[Goldwater Conservative]

The problem I have is that states like Iran have stated their objective is the destruction of the US. To me that doesn't sound like someone that is going to stop gunning for us after we roll out.

No, that's what Ahmadinejad has said about Israel. And he's a powerless figurehead. Look at the population in Iran, 2/3 of them are under the age of 30. Many of those are generally sympathetic to or even fans of much of Western culture. They only rally behind Ahmadinejad, who they otherwise mock for being the idiot he is, because we keep rattling the saber. They are a fraction of the threat the Soviets were, and we should conduct our foreign policy accordingly. Speak softly (and don't meddle) but carry a big stick.

 

[crackyflipside]

I used to be a Fred Thompson supporter for a while, mostly for his very traditional conservative views of spending, but found Ron Paul to be a bit more in line with my views of conservatism.

 

[yongrel]

Gunny's posts in this thread are incredible.

I hope you don't mind Gunny, but I emailed your words to about 200 folks.

 

[mosquitobite]

Gunny's posts in this thread are incredible.

I hope you don't mind Gunny, but I emailed your words to about 200 folks.

Same here. I emailed my dad and said "if this guy can't convince you, well I guess I will finally give up."