Following Jesus Means Opposing Torture

[PierzStyx]

"Last week’s release of the Senate’s report on the CIA confirmed what many Americans had long suspected: Our government tortured people.

The torture was not effective in obtaining life-saving information, it set back counterterrorism efforts and even endangered American soldiers’ lives.

The methods used by the CIA are exceedingly gruesome and uncomfortably close to techniques used by the Soviet KGB and, yes, the Nazis. At least 26 of the 119 people tortured were entirely innocent—and many were detained even after the CIA realized its mistake in arresting them.

One of those 26 was a mentally challenged man who was tortured so that his cries of pain could be taped and played to his family to coerce confessions. And all of these activities were highly illegal under our Constitution as well as multiple treaties our government has signed.

This is really horrific stuff.

Perhaps equally horrific is how few Americans object to torture—no matter how illegal, inhumane, or useless it may be. With imaginations shaped more by television than real life, up to 71 percent of Americans consider torture acceptable in some situations.

But even worse—from my perspective, as a Christian—is another statistic: In May 2009, a study was released which showed that white evangelical Christians with high church attendance rates topped the charts for approving of torture. Christianity Today reported:

"According to a survey conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, 18 percent of white evangelicals said use of torture against suspected terrorists can often be justified and 44 percent said it can sometimes be justified. That adds up to 62 percent. […]

One more factor to consider: attendance at religious services. Fifty-four percent of those who attend religious services at least weekly say torture against suspected terrorists can be often/sometimes justified compared to 51 percent of those who attend monthly or a few times a year and 42 percent of those who attend seldom or never."

At the time of this survey (and to my knowledge there isn’t a more recent poll to update these religion-specific numbers), that 62 percent was the highest approval rate of torture of any group surveyed.

We evangelical Christians were the most bloodthirsty.

We were the most willing to presume guilt.

We were the quickest to deem ourselves worthy judges of the value of another’s life.

And arguably, we were the least like Jesus—because there’s no good way to argue that Jesus would support torture. On the contrary, Christianity most centrally means following a God who allowed himself to be tortured to save his enemies.

Non-denominational pastor and author Brian Zahnd writes:

"Jesus was a victim of torture. He was tortured to death. But Jesus not only died on a cross, he called his disciples to take up their cross and follow him! Why? Why does Jesus call his followers to carry an instrument of torture? To torture enemies? Of course not! We take up our cross because in following Jesus we are prepared to choose suffering over security."

Being a Christian is not about being safe; it’s about following Jesus, who was painstakingly clear that we should love our enemies.

Just punishment for a crime is one thing, and faithful Christians have long disagreed about participation in war.

But is it possible to love someone while you’re torturing them?

While you let them freeze to death, chained to an icy floor? While you deprive them of sleep for more than a week, hands shackled above their heads? While you aggressively shove undigested food into their rectum?

I don’t think so.

There is something fascinating about that 2009 survey of evangelical Christians: When researchers connected support for torture with the Golden Rule, the proportion of Christians “who said torture was never or rarely justified rose from 38 percent to 52 percent.”

As Christianity Today commented, “Ask Christians to think in such Golden Rule terms, and they do change.”

That’s really good news, because Jesus said we should apply the Golden Rule even to people who hate us. He commanded Christians to love God, neighbors, enemies—everyone. The Apostle Paul wrote that no matter how much good and righteous-looking stuff he does, it’s all worthless if he acts without love. And “God is love,” said the Apostle John, so “[w]hoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.”

In other words, love is the nuts and bolts of the Christian life. If we aren’t making decisions—even (or perhaps especially) about torture—in light of love, we aren’t being like Jesus. We aren’t following God’s commands. And our conclusions are totally worthless.

When Christians support torturing our enemies, we look more like the Romans who crucified Jesus than we look like the Son of God himself.

Love and torture are incompatible. Following Jesus and supporting torture are incompatible, too."

Link://rare.us/story/following-jesus-means-opposing-torture/

 

[otherone]

There is something fascinating about that 2009 survey of evangelical Christians: When researchers connected support for torture with the Golden Rule, the proportion of Christians “who said torture was never or rarely justified rose from 38 percent to 52 percent.”

Sometimes it seems that those who use faith instead of reason are the most easily led.

This explains why Stalin murdered the intellectuals but spared the Christians.

 

[Ronin Truth]

FWIW, that's pretty much the way I read Jesus.

 

[pcosmar]

Sometimes it seems that those who use faith instead of reason are the most easily led.

I would have to disagree.

State Religions have little to do with Faith.

There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[PierzStyx]

Sometimes it seems that those who use faith instead of reason are the most easily led.

This explains why Stalin murdered the intellectuals but spared the Christians.

Stalin spared the Christians because the Russian Orthodox was HUGE. Even that murder statistic would have been to big for him. Besides, why murder when you can convert? He didn't get that generation, he got their children in the state schools.

I don't think they're anymore easily lead than anyone else. Those intellectuals Stalin killed were just rival statists who would have most likely done to him what he did to them.

 

[PierzStyx]

The whole thing reminds me of the last round of Republican Presidential primaries. In South Carolina Ron was nearly booed off the stage for suggesting we should take a page out of Christ's teachings and use the Golden Rule in our foreign policy, while Newt was applauded raucously for suggesting we should just bomb and kill everyone who disagreed with us.

 

[presence]

We take up our cross because in following Jesus we are prepared to choose suffering over security

 

[HVACTech]

Sometimes it seems that those who use faith instead of reason are the most easily led.

This explains why Stalin murdered the intellectuals but spared the Christians.

Reported.

(bump)

 

[GunnyFreedom]

501(c)3 has them worshiping the US government as a god, and they don't even know it.

 

[Ronin Truth]

The whole thing reminds me of the last round of Republican Presidential primaries. In South Carolina Ron was nearly booed off the stage for suggesting we should take a page out of Christ's teachings and use the Golden Rule in our foreign policy, while Newt was applauded raucously for suggesting we should just bomb and kill everyone who disagreed with us.

Just one of the very many sad significant differences, between Christianity/Paulinism and following Jesus (Jesuism).

 

[PierzStyx]

Just one of the very many sad significant differences, between Christianity/Paulinism and following Jesus (Jesuism).

I think of it another way. Christianity means following the commands of Christ. Christ commanded us to love one another. You cannot love someone and torture them. Those who think so are simply not Christians, no matter what creeds they confess, no matter what baptism they have, no matter where they go to church, or what confession of grace they have made by the mouth. They are not the followers of Christ but are servitors of Satan, who is the Lord of Rot and the master of hatred and contention.

 

[Ronin Truth]

I think of it another way. Christianity means following the commands of Christ. Christ commanded us to love one another. You cannot love someone and torture them. Those who think so are simply not Christians, no matter what creeds they confess, no matter what baptism they have, no matter where they go to church, or what confession of grace they have made by the mouth. They are not the followers of Christ but are servitors of Satan, who is the Lord of Rot and the master of hatred and contention.

"Christianity is the religion founded by Paul, which replaces Jesus' Gospel with a Gospel about Jesus - a religion that should rather be called Paulinism." -- Dr. Wilhelm Nestle, Church Historian

//

 

[otherone]

I think of it another way. Christianity means following the commands of Christ. Christ commanded us to love one another. You cannot love someone and torture them. Those who think so are simply not Christians, no matter what creeds they confess, no matter what baptism they have, no matter where they go to church, or what confession of grace they have made by the mouth. They are not the followers of Christ but are servitors of Satan, who is the Lord of Rot and the master of hatred and contention.

Some could argue that poison fruit only come from poison trees.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Just one of the very many sad significant differences, between Christianity/Paulinism and following Jesus (Jesuism).

When did Paul endorse torture you moron? Paul and Jesus taught the same faith. These pro-torture psychopaths have nothing to do with what Paul or Jeuss taught.

 

[Ronin Truth]

When did Paul endorse torture you moron? Paul and Jesus taught the same faith. These pro-torture psychopaths have nothing to do with what Paul or Jeuss taught.

Track it back to the original context, Goober. Then just STFU!

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” -- Mahatma Gandhi

 

[GunnyFreedom]

One cannot obey Jesus and perform torture. Endorsing it, along the burden of sin is akin to performing it, for you have asked another to perform it on your behalf. A deeper question is whether one can be a "Christian" at all and endorse torture. Perhaps I allow for extreme deception a little too much and try to focus on intent. If the true intent of their heart were to follow Jesus and somehow they ended up getting used as a tool of the devil, then given full knowledge I could not pass judgment. Knowing my own battles and the Enemy's ability to deceive, if I condemned a soul for being deceived would I not also be condemning myself?

So I focus on intent. I try to discern first if they mean right with God (not if they are doing right with God), and then I look a little deeper into which God they serve, according to the fruit they produce and promote. This is a much more accurate measure than any academic doctrinal compliances.

 

[PierzStyx]

One cannot obey Jesus and perform torture. Endorsing it, along the burden of sin is akin to performing it, for you have asked another to perform it on your behalf. A deeper question is whether one can be a "Christian" at all and endorse torture. Perhaps I allow for extreme deception a little too much and try to focus on intent. If the true intent of their heart were to follow Jesus and somehow they ended up getting used as a tool of the devil, then given full knowledge I could not pass judgment. Knowing my own battles and the Enemy's ability to deceive, if I condemned a soul for being deceived would I not also be condemning myself?

So I focus on intent. I try to discern first if they mean right with God (not if they are doing right with God), and then I look a little deeper into which God they serve, according to the fruit they produce and promote. This is a much more accurate measure than any academic doctrinal compliances.

I agree that intent is a vital part of God's judgment, and perhaps one of the most merciful parts of it. But I do think there is a difference between trying to follow God and being a sinner and being one who embraces evil practices while confessing Christ emptily. The Christian will always be a sinner, but the Christian will never embrace sin, like Paul the Christian is always bothered by sin and yearns for the day when the thorn is removed. In the here and now, that means the Christian is striving to do right, even as they stumble. This attitude and effort creates a stark contrast with those who confess Christ but who embrace evil. Those who embrace evil can also confess Christ, as we see from Legion, yet their works will always further the cause of Hell, which is warfare, contention, hatred, etc. No matter what their stated intentions may be, their true intentions are to do the works of the world, however they justify them. Perhaps it is not for me to pontificate on who ultimately believes in Christ, but a Christian is more than one who believes in Christ. If belief were the only requisite then Satan himself is a Christian. A Christian then has to be more than one who confesses then, but one who strives, however haltedly, to follow Christ's commands. Considering Christ himself stated that the two greatest commandments were to; 1. Love God and 2. Love our fellowman, I cannot see a torturer as one who follows either of those commands, or as one who is trying to do so. They are willfully rejecting the second commandment, not failing to live it perfectly but purposefully rejecting it, and you cannot fulfill the first without at least trying to fulfill the second. The result, in my mind, is that if torturers are to be considered Christians, they are really crappy ones, at very best, and, like the Pharisees, the hypocritical children of Hell at worst. Repentance is, of course, possible, for with God all things are possible, but one cannot repent of torture while continuing to do it.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I agree that intent is a vital part of God's judgment, and perhaps one of the most merciful parts of it. But I do think there is a difference between trying to follow God and being a sinner and being one who embraces evil practices while confessing Christ emptily. The Christian will always be a sinner, but the Christian will never embrace sin, like Paul the Christian is always bothered by sin and yearns for the day when the thorn is removed. In the here and now, that means the Christian is striving to do right, even as they stumble. This attitude and effort creates a stark contrast with those who confess Christ but who embrace evil. Those who embrace evil can also confess Christ, as we see from Legion, yet their works will always further the cause of Hell, which is warfare, contention, hatred, etc. No matter what their stated intentions may be, their true intentions are to do the works of the world, however they justify them. Perhaps it is not for me to pontificate on who ultimately believes in Christ, but a Christian is more than one who believes in Christ. If belief were the only requisite then Satan himself is a Christian. A Christian then has to be more than one who confesses then, but one who strives, however haltedly, to follow Christ's commands. Considering Christ himself stated that the two greatest commandments were to; 1. Love God and 2. Love our fellowman, I cannot see a torturer as one who follows either of those commands, or as one who is trying to do so. They are willfully rejecting the second commandment, not failing to live it perfectly but purposefully rejecting it, and you cannot fulfill the first without at least trying to fulfill the second. The result, in my mind, is that if torturers are to be considered Christians, they are really crappy ones, at very best, and, like the Pharisees, the hypocritical children of Hell at worst. Repentance is, of course, possible, for with God all things are possible, but one cannot repent of torture while continuing to do it.

I pretty much agree with all of this, except that I add the category of 'deceived' and hold them somewhat less accountable for being deceived than I would had they acted with knowledge, will, and intent. At least, someone who is only behaving that way because they are deceived I will recognize that they are deceived but I will leave the judgement to God. For all I know, God allowed the person to be deceived in order to fulfill a necessary role that brings everyone closer to truth. I think someone who opposes righteousness by will and intent is evil, and an agent of the Enemy. Someone who does it having been deceived (which I think describes most of the 'christians who support torture') will, if they are saved will have that part excoriated from their souls by fire.

I guess what I am saying is that an evidoer who is doing with full knowledge will an intent is clearly divorced from all righteousness, he gets my enmity and outrage, but an evildoer who is working (out of being) deceived alone I pity, and then I pray that God is using them as an object lesson so that they may find some mercy before the Judgement Seat.

The deceiver is worse than the deceived, the deceiver is clearly out of hell and will return to hell, but the deceived are just lost and blinded following after the loudest voice. I think it is possible to be regenerate in this temporal world and still get drawn off into the wilderness again. Instead of thinking they are hellions, I think maybe they got drawn back into the wilderness and maybe need help finding the Way again. Mostly they cling to their deception, but...

I guess what I am saying is I see the deceivers as the enemy and the deceived as their victims. I just can't hold out that kind of judgement against the victims of evil. I figure God who knows the heart, will know if they were willing or unwilling victims, and so I trust Him in the Judgement to sort out the deceived.

 

[Jamesiv1]

//

 

[jmdrake]

Sometimes it seems that those who use faith instead of reason are the most easily led.

This explains why Stalin murdered the intellectuals but spared the Christians.

Some intellectuals were spared. Some Christians were spared. I was watching a documentary on the Soviet bomber program. One brilliant aircraft designer from Italy was imprisoned for no explicable reason. Later he was let out by one of his friends so he could design a new bomber. He asked "Why did you let me be imprisoned? You know I'm innocent." His "friend" laughed "Of course I know you were innocent. That's why you weren't shot."