Following Jesus Means Opposing Torture

[PierzStyx]

I pretty much agree with all of this, except that I add the category of 'deceived' and hold them somewhat less accountable for being deceived than I would had they acted with knowledge, will, and intent. At least, someone who is only behaving that way because they are deceived I will recognize that they are deceived but I will leave the judgement to God. For all I know, God allowed the person to be deceived in order to fulfill a necessary role that brings everyone closer to truth. I think someone who opposes righteousness by will and intent is evil, and an agent of the Enemy. Someone who does it having been deceived (which I think describes most of the 'christians who support torture') will, if they are saved will have that part excoriated from their souls by fire.

I guess what I am saying is that an evidoer who is doing with full knowledge will an intent is clearly divorced from all righteousness, he gets my enmity and outrage, but an evildoer who is working (out of being) deceived alone I pity, and then I pray that God is using them as an object lesson so that they may find some mercy before the Judgement Seat.

The deceiver is worse than the deceived, the deceiver is clearly out of hell and will return to hell, but the deceived are just lost and blinded following after the loudest voice. I think it is possible to be regenerate in this temporal world and still get drawn off into the wilderness again. Instead of thinking they are hellions, I think maybe they got drawn back into the wilderness and maybe need help finding the Way again. Mostly they cling to their deception, but...

I guess what I am saying is I see the deceivers as the enemy and the deceived as their victims. I just can't hold out that kind of judgement against the victims of evil. I figure God who knows the heart, will know if they were willing or unwilling victims, and so I trust Him in the Judgement to sort out the deceived.

I agree with you, and I'm so glad that judgment is not mine to execute, but God's. I fully expect to be surprised by who I see in the celestial realms, if I make it there myself. I just don't see how someone can perform such evil acts as the torture reports have revealed and not have their conscience pricked, to have the reason and light God has given to every fully mentally capable person to revolt against the results of their actions.

 

[Brett85]

"The road to life is straight and narrow, and only hardcore libertarians will find it."

 

[Christian Liberty]

"The road to life is straight and narrow, and only hardcore libertarians will find it."

I don't think anyone is saying that. But, I don't really see how someone who is torturing people is producing positive spiritual fruit.

 

[Brett85]

I don't think anyone is saying that. But, I don't really see how someone who is torturing people is producing positive spiritual fruit.

Yeah, but I think there's a difference between those who actually torture and those who may support torture as a theoretical concept. But other people in this thread seem to disagree with that. Another example along the same lines is an abortionist. I don't personally believe that someone who murders babies for a living can be a Christian, but yet I think it's probably possible for someone who is pro choice on the abortion issue to be a Christian. I do think it's a sin to support legal abortion, but yet I don't view it as actually being the same as committing the physical act of murdering the baby. Some people who are "pro choice" just take that position because they say that there would still be the same amount of abortions if it were illegal, but that it would just be driven under ground and would be less safe for women. I disagree with them, and I can point to studies that would refute that claim, but I don't believe I would state that everyone who has that view is a non Christian. But I would state that George Tiller was a non Christian, unless he repented of what he did before he died.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Yeah, but I think there's a difference between those who actually torture and those who may support torture as a theoretical concept. But other people in this thread seem to disagree with that. Another example along the same lines is an abortionist. I don't personally believe that someone who murders babies for a living can be a Christian, but yet I think it's probably possible for someone who is pro choice on the abortion issue to be a Christian. I do think it's a sin to support legal abortion, but yet I don't view it as actually being the same as committing the physical act of murdering the baby. Some people who are "pro choice" just take that position because they say that there would still be the same amount of abortions if it were illegal, but that it would just be driven under ground and would be less safe for women. I disagree with them, and I can point to studies that would refute that claim, but I don't believe I would state that everyone who has that view is a non Christian. But I would state that George Tiller was a non Christian, unless he repented of what he did before he died.

OK, that's fair.

I think supporting torture is worse than being "pro-choice." A better analogy would be between saying its morally OK to torture and that its morally OK to engage in abortion (because many people who are "pro-choice" agree that abortion is immoral, but people who "support torture" think that its moral, not just that it "should be legal" in whatever situation).

Speaking for myself, I won't definitively state that anyone who "supports torture" in any situation whatsoever is not a Christian. I think that's a flaw in one's ethics, but it doesn't necessarily mean you aren't saved.

The thing that really drives me nuts is how blindly and naively most conservative Christians just blindly trust America on these issues. A lot of them have basically made America into a second god, and I think there's only so much a Christian can do that. Of course all of this is case by case and you have to take each individual person as a case by case and even then we won't make assessments with 100% accuracy. But I don't think nation worship is just another secondary issue like how exactly you view eschatology or whether you think infants should be baptized. I believe it has SERIOUS spiritual ramifications.

 

[Brett85]

I think supporting torture is worse than being "pro-choice." A better analogy would be between saying its morally OK to torture and that its morally OK to engage in abortion (because many people who are "pro-choice" agree that abortion is immoral, but people who "support torture" think that its moral, not just that it "should be legal" in whatever situation).

I don't know if there's very many people who would say that there are no moral problems with torture at all. I think some people just believe that it's a necessary evil, at least in certain situations. I don't know if that's necessarily the same as saying that there is no moral issue with torture at all.

 

[otherone]

I don't know if there's very many people who would say that there are no moral problems with torture at all. I think some people just believe that it's a necessary evil, at least in certain situations. I don't know if that's necessarily the same as saying that there is no moral issue with torture at all.

Where in the bible does God ask for public approval of his commandments?

 

[Brett85]

Where in the bible does God ask for public approval of his commandments?

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you explain further?

 

[otherone]

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you explain further?

I don't know if there's very many people who would say...

Is morality a subject of consensus?

Sin destroys ideals. A tragic process begins when we become involved in sin. At first, we regard sin with horror. If we continue to commit the sin, we will still feel ill at ease and unhappy about it, but gradually our consciences will adjust. Each sin makes the next one a bit easier. Over time, the conduct will become entirely acceptable, and we will sin without a qualm. Sin is addictive like a drug. As the addiction becomes stronger, the ideal depreciates until it is completely gone.

John W. Ritenbaugh

 

[staerker]

The thing that really drives me nuts is how blindly and naively most conservative Christians just blindly trust America on these issues. A lot of them have basically made America into a second god, and I think there's only so much a Christian can do that.

They are just, extremely naive. Some would rather shout down "conspiracy theorists" than check themselves.

Government officials: power corrupts, those who are corrupt desire power. Tell me again how most of those in power are not corrupt.

Government worship: What do you honestly think one of the most powerful beings in all of existence, who is by far the most conniving and deceitful, has been up to these past thousand years?

Hubris, they have been fooled.

 

[otherone]

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you explain further?

God gave us two jobs...love him and love our brother. That's it.
The parable of the rich young man shows just how difficult that is.
God expects you to trust that his will be done, and asks for you to believe that if you obey him, you will be rewarded.
God wants you in the world, not of it.
We fail all the time, being human. Christianity is hard...but it gets easier to fail when we claim disobedience to God is sometimes moral.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I don't know if there's very many people who would say that there are no moral problems with torture at all. I think some people just believe that it's a necessary evil, at least in certain situations. I don't know if that's necessarily the same as saying that there is no moral issue with torture at all.

True. Some are way more casual about it than others. I have an easier time accepting someone as a brother who reluctantly supports torture but recognizes that its barbaric and problematic than someone who basically flaunts his support for torture "because freedom" or so forth. (And yes, I know "because freedom" is a little bit of a strawman, but I think you understand what I'm trying to say.)

 

[Brett85]

God gave us two jobs...love him and love our brother. That's it.
The parable of the rich young man shows just how difficult that is.
God expects you to trust that his will be done, and asks for you to believe that if you obey him, you will be rewarded.
God wants you in the world, not of it.
We fail all the time, being human. Christianity is hard...but it gets easier to fail when we claim disobedience to God is sometimes moral.

There are also verses in the Bible that gives justification for the government to exist, particularly in Romans. If the government is to exist, then individuals have more of a job than to simply love him and love our brother. And loving others isn't a national defense policy. The U.S government has a responsibility first and foremost to protect the liberties of the American people. If people are dead, then they have no liberty. So we have to keep that perspective in mind when discussing this issue, that the Bible does indeed justify the existence of the state and of leaders. You can make the argument that torture is always immoral in every situation and should never be used, or that it's ineffective and shouldn't be used, but for people to keep making statements that "we just have a responsibility to love others" isn't correct. The Bible also says that we have many other responsibilities as well, such as taking care of our family. The Bible condemns men who refuse to take care of their families. It's not the case that loving God and loving others are our only responsibilities.

 

[otherone]

It's not the case that loving God and loving others are our only responsibilities.

What does the bible say when our responsibilities lead us to disobey God?

7"Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes! 8"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9"If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.


Matthew18:7

 

[Brett85]

What does the bible say when our responsibilities lead us to disobey God?

But the problem is still that you have never cited a verse which says that an agent of the government is disobeying God whenever force is used against someone in order to get information to prevent a terrorist attack. I personally believe that it's immoral in most situations, but not all situations. But I recognize that it's a grey area that Christians can disagree on. Some conservative Christians are much more militant than me and basically say that torture is never immoral if the purpose is to get information. Other liberal Christians and hardcore libertarians say that torture is always immoral in every situation. The truth is that the Bible says absolutely nothing about the issue, so it's a grey area where Christians have to rely on their conscience and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to determine what the correct position is.

 

[otherone]

The Bible also says that we have many other responsibilities as well, such as taking care of our family.

Was it Abraham's responsibility to take care of his family?

 

[otherone]

But the problem is still that you have never cited a verse which says that an agent of the government is disobeying God whenever force is used against someone in order to get information to prevent a terrorist attack. I personally believe that it's immoral in most situations, but not all situations. But I recognize that it's a grey area that Christians can disagree on. Some conservative Christians are much more militant than me and basically say that torture is never immoral if the purpose is to get information. Other liberal Christians and hardcore libertarians say that torture is always immoral in every situation. The truth is that the Bible says absolutely nothing about the issue, so it's a grey area where Christians have to rely on their conscience and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to determine what the correct position is.

People justify all kinds of stuff. The sin is the justification. It's a corruption.

Do you trust God?

 

[Brett85]

Was it Abraham's responsibility to take care of his family?

It was Abraham's responsibility to do what God told him to do, which he did. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

 

[Brett85]

People justify all kinds of stuff. The sin is the justification. It's a corruption.

Do you trust God?

Yes, I trust God. And I trust in the Bible. But I'm not going to add things to the Bible that aren't there.

 

[otherone]

It was Abraham's responsibility to do what God told him to do, which he did. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

TC, it's the crux of the issue.
Could you do what Abraham did?