FBI 'raided' Mar-a-Lago

[Occam's Banana]

https://twitter.com/GhostGcom/status/1563260735970373632

 

[dannno]

I don't think Trump is Hitler. I think he's a not very bright narcissist who shares a talent with Hitler, Jim Jones, the folks at the Westboro Baptist Church, Jimmy Swaggart, Alex Jones, Mao, snake oil salesmen, and countless others: the ability to make people believe absolute B.S.

How did you score on the Hoax quiz I posted?

Also, can you name one thing that I believe that Trump got me to believe that you can prove is incorrect? I got a list of potentially 12 things you believe that I can demonstrably prove are BS, but you haven't given us your score on the quiz. I'm wondering if there is a single thing in the entire world you can prove I believe that is false that Trump made me believe. All of the things you think I believe that are wrong are likely based on feelings and emotion, not based on any demonstrable evidence. But I'd love to see at least just one if you've got one.

 

[dannno]

With the exception of certain information dealing with nuclear technology (which a President cannot unilaterally declassify), no one's disputing Trump's authority to declassify. But with respect to the matrerials at Mar-a-Lago there's a lot of dispute about whether he actually did.

But the issue about whether the material was classified or not doesn't affect the fact that the stuff didn't belong to Trump. Under the Presidential Records Act the Archivist, not Trump, had the right and duty to possess and safeguard it. Moreover, the Archivist had the duty to "deposit all such Presidential records in a Presidential archival depository or another archival facility operated by the United States." But the fact that some of the material was classified bears on the seriousness of the situation and the need for a warrant when other less intrusive attempts to retrieve the stuff failed.

Why do you have to keep contradicting yourself? If you admit he can declassify anything, then he didn't take any classified material. He declassified it. The President doesn't need any process to declassify something. A process exists, the President will often use that process, but the President has the power to do it anyway, with or without a process.

Then you shift the goalposts to he can't take Presidential records. That's a different topic. The primary claim is he can't take classified information.

Then you say he can't declassify information dealing with nuclear technology. Well, he can declassify information related to nuclear technology, but not certain information dealing with nuclear technology.. of which there is no proof he did that, nor do we know whether that would pass Constitutional muster.

So the question remains: why did Trump take the classified materials to begin with and why did he resist their return?

Every single person on the right can answer this question, and you don't have a clue? You need to diversify your news sources. A lot of what he took was related to Crossfire Hurricane investigation, which he believed would be destroyed if he left it there. You don't think he made copies?

 

[Invisible Man]

If you admit he can declassify anything, then he didn't take any classified material. He declassified it.

No. That doesn't logically follow.

Just because he had the authority to declassify the documents doesn't mean he actually did.

If he did, let's see him prove he did. If he thinks he did, but he has no proof that he did because he thinks he declassified them by some secret fiat that only he knows about, while he left the documents to be officially kept in their classified status as far as the offices of the government that keep records of that are concerned, then he's really an idiot and asked for everything that happened.

 

[TheTexan]

Just because he had the authority to declassify the documents doesn't mean he actually did.

If he did, let's see him prove he did.

If the documents they took are the Crossfire Hurricane docs, then yes, he actually did.

If the Left wants to make the ridiculous claim that these are not declassified because the various formalities haven't been completed and therefore it's worthy of a raid on his home, they are free to make that argument, but it's also a transparently ridiculous argument to make.

https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.go...lated-fbis-crossfire-hurricane-investigation/

 

[dannno]

No. That doesn't logically follow.

Just because he had the authority to declassify the documents doesn't mean he actually did.

If he did, let's see him prove he did. If he thinks he did, but he has no proof that he did because he thinks he declassified them by some secret fiat that only he knows about, while he left the documents to be officially kept in their classified status as far as the offices of the government that keep records of that are concerned, then he's really an idiot and asked for everything that happened.

The President has the unilateral authority to declassify documents. Period. If you want to know whether the documents at Mar-a-lago were declassified, you just have to ask him.

For somebody to be convicted of a crime, you need to prove they are guilty. The person being investigated does not need to prove they are innocent.

You are trying to flip all of the important principles of the criminal justice system on its head by asking that Trump prove he is innocent. To prove he is guilty, would require that Trump admit he did not declassify the documents. That is literally the only thing that could prove he is guilty in our criminal justice system.

 

[dannno]

If the documents they took are the Crossfire Hurricane docs, then yes, he actually did.

If the Left wants to make the ridiculous claim that these are not declassified because the various formalities haven't been completed and therefore it's worthy of a raid on his home, they are free to make that argument, but it's also a transparently ridiculous argument to make.

https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.go...lated-fbis-crossfire-hurricane-investigation/

These documents implicate the FBI in criminal activity. It's the same group of people who were implicated in this criminal activity at the FBI that were behind the raid, to try and get the documents back.

It's too bad humans haven't invented a copy machine.

 

[Invisible Man]

If the documents they took are the Crossfire Hurricane docs, then yes, he actually did.

If the Left wants to make the ridiculous claim that these are not declassified because the various formalities haven't been completed and therefore it's worthy of a raid on his home, they are free to make that argument, but it's also a transparently ridiculous argument to make.

https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.go...lated-fbis-crossfire-hurricane-investigation/

And by the same token, if those documents are the documents in question, then Trump has nothing at all to worry about, and it's Garland and everyone in the FBI who was involved in this who are idiots, and who are about to be proven so.

I am happy to wait and see how this plays out.

But which do you think is more likely? Everyone involved in this raid never bothered to confirm that the documents they thought were classified actually were classified, and in fact somehow missed that Trump publicly put out a memorandum declassifying all of the documents in question? Or Trump actually did have other documents that are classified, with no record of their having ever been declassified?

If it's the former, then this is not something Garland or anybody else involved in the raid will be able to get away with. And Trump could easily come right out and say that's exactly what happened.

And while we're on the subject, if Trump wanted the contents of all those Crossfire Hurricane documents published, and if he had the documents, why didn't he himself publish them? It didn't have to be left up to Biden. The documents were declassified. They were legally allowed to be shared with the public. What was Trump waiting for? For that matter, what's he still waiting for now? He may not have the documents, but I bet he and others in his circle know what was in them and are free to talk about all that non-classified material. It's time to poop or get off the pot.

 

[Invisible Man]

The President has the unilateral authority to declassify documents. Period. If you want to know whether the documents at Mar-a-lago were declassified, you just have to ask him.

But he's not president any more. He's just an ex-president. He could lie about it. Can he prove that he declassified them when he was president and had the authority to declassify them?

If not, then even if we suppose for the sake of argument that it's possible for the president to declassify documents without telling anyone, so that the agency of the government tasked with keeping record of the declassification of documents has no record of this, and no one but he himself knows, why in the world would he consider that a good idea?

Again, if he did something that stupid, then he asked for this.

 

[Invisible Man]

These documents implicate the FBI in criminal activity.

It sure would have been nice if Trump had blown the whistle on this criminal FBI activity that he had proof of for all that time in documents that he had personally declassified.

 

[TheTexan]

The President has the unilateral authority to declassify documents. Period. If you want to know whether the documents at Mar-a-lago were declassified, you just have to ask him.

For somebody to be convicted of a crime, you need to prove they are guilty. The person being investigated does not need to prove they are innocent.

You are trying to flip all of the important principles of the criminal justice system on its head by asking that Trump prove he is innocent. To prove he is guilty, would require that Trump admit he did not declassify the documents. That is literally the only thing that could prove he is guilty in our criminal justice system.

This is unequivocally the correct way to look at this.

Innocent until proven guilty, still means something to some of us.

If anyone thinks that it's ridiculous that Trump can "claim" to have "declassified" stuff when he so obviously did not (like omg its so obvious), then change the law to specify that there needs to be required documentation in order to claim such a thing.

The law as it stands does not specify a goddamn thing related to process, probably because noone thought anyone would ever be retarded enough to raid a President's home over such a trivial thing. (and yes, it is trivial, he was once trusted with the goddamn nukes, whatever boxes he wants to keep in his basement is irrelevant)

 

[TheTexan]

But he's not president any more. He's just an ex-president. He could lie about it. Can he prove that he declassified them when he was president and had the authority to declassify them?

He doesn't have to prove that he declassified them.

The state has to prove that he didn't.

That's the law as it stands currently. If that sounds ridiculous because he could just lie about it... then change the law.

 

[Invisible Man]

He doesn't have to prove that he declassified them.

For the sake of argument, let's suppose you're right.

Why wouldn't he? How stupid must he be if that's what he did and he somehow thought it would work out for him, when he could have simply gone through the existing legal process of declassifying documents so that the rest of the government would actually know they were declassified? If he actually honestly wanted the documents to be declassified, why didn't he do that?

And if he actually believes that he declassified them, and if he honestly did that so that nefarious secrets about criminal deep state activity would get out for the good of the country, then why didn't he release this declassified information he had?

 

[TheTexan]

then why didn't he release this declassified information he had?

One reasonable explanation... at the advice of his attorneys.

If the material was going to be released anyway (not an unreasonable expectation in a non-clown-world context), there wouldn't have been much pressure for him to release it personally.

 

[TheTexan]

FWhy wouldn't he? How stupid must he be if that's what he did and he somehow thought it would work out for him, when he could have simply gone through the existing legal process of declassifying documents so that the rest of the government would actually know they were declassified? If he actually honestly wanted the documents to be declassified, why didn't he do that?

Would it matter if he did? The same deep state that is throwing him under the bus now, would not be rushing to his aid to help him prove that he did in fact declassify anything. And if he kept documents to prove it... they may have just been taken along with everything else.

 

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

Would it matter if he did? The same deep state that is throwing him under the bus now, would not be rushing to his aid to help him prove that he did in fact declassify anything. And if he kept documents to prove it... they may have just been taken along with everything else.

If I were Trump I would have made copies of anything I thought would disappear in a raid.

 

[Invisible Man]

One reasonable explanation... at the advice of his attorneys.

If the material was going to be released anyway (not an unreasonable expectation in a non-clown-world context), there wouldn't have been much pressure for him to release it personally.

If it were going to be released anyway, that would presuppose that his method of declassifying it were something other than him secretly declaring it unclassified just by thinking the thought and not telling anyone.

I have no interest in defending Garland or the FBI, or the whole system of classification of government documents. I'm happy to criticize both sides.

But this idea that Trump could have just somehow declassified documents secretly in a way that only he knows about, while leaving all the classified markings on them, leaving them in a status of classified in every government record, and thinking that as an ex-president it should be enough for him to just say that he declassified them back when he was president, and that should pass muster, is so mind bogglingly stupid it's infuriating. I don't know if Trump himself is actually resorting to an argument that's that ridiculous, or if it's just his lemmings that are. But either way, it's not the kind of thing that can be just let pass.

 

[TheTexan]

If I were Trump I would have made copies of anything I thought would disappear in a raid.

And when you produced those documents you would get charged with obstruction. Add it to the list of crimes you committed.

 

[TheTexan]

If it were going to be released anyway, that would presuppose that his method of declassifying it were something other than him secretly declaring it unclassified just by thinking the thought and not telling anyone.

I was referring to the Jan 19 EO where he very clearly did declassify the Crossfire Hurricane documents. If it's not the CH documents, then there would be no obvious reason for him or anyone to release anything, and your whole point becomes moot.

 

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

And when you produced those documents you would get charged with obstruction. Add it to the list of crimes you committed.

No need to produce them until they tell you they lost the originals.